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DS needs a change, A CHANGE. Not a full nerf. Putting a end to this discussion.
Let's be real DS is strong, it's a perk where 1 player can run it and will make alot of killers respect it even if the other 3 dont have it. While this isn't a huge issue having this effect or 4 survivors running a perk that gives them immunity to being picked up for 60 seconds is huge especially if you are getting good pressure and down. While slugging is useful killers can still be hit by DS even after hooking others, doing chases etc. And nothing is more annoying than doing other chases and hooking someone to recross the map seeing a healthy survivor on a gen to down them and get hit by a DS. DS needs to be an anti-tunnel perk, either make it deactivate when a survivor touches a gen or reduce the time. Personally I think it should deactivate after touching a gen but if a killer tunnels and picks you up they're hit by a much bigger stun. If pop gave too much freedom then DS clearly does as well. Killers can't afford to wait out 60seconds on everyone while they push gens especially at high skilled games.
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Well if we're being technical, making it true anti-tunnel would be a nerf to the perk, because it would be weaker than how it is now.
But I digress, this is exactly what they should do to it. (Making it anti-tunnel)
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Yeah, making it a true anti-tunnel perk would probably nerf it pretty hard, but hey it would be more balanced.
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Waiting for survivor mains hop in say
"JuSt dOn'T TuNnEl"
And no, I'm not a killer main, i play 50/50 and i run DS about 50% of my matches, and when i see how much you can abuse this perk..... Is filthy! I DO think it can exist in a healthy way, and yes it sucks getting truly tunneled and its a good thing you have something to avoid that, but the current state of this perk is not ok.
Unless you show me how 60 seconds of full immunity x4 is fine, in that case I'll change my mind
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the thing is it needs to have a long timer to discourage tunneling, even just making it 45 seconds would result in people just waiting out the timer.
As for it's deactivation as i have said on nearly all DS posts i see making it deactivate after 3 seconds of working on a gen is the best nerf they could do. the second would be reducing it's timer AFTER all gens are completed to 30-45 seconds so it is less safe during end game saves.
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You need to find a sweet spot of "wont effect high skill games that much where tunnelling is kinda needed" to "Strong enough to impact killers just straight up tunnelling".
45 seconds of DS is that sweet spot.
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DS needs to be basekit. And should be active everytime you get unhooked. But the current version is just overkill and hurts killers who do not tunnel. Maybe a 60 second DS but timer goes 3x slower if you are slugged and you can pick yourself up and lose DS. But if you heal another survivor, touch a gen, get healed or go inside locker or try to unhook survivor, you lose it. Only issue with this is protection hits that the unhooked survivor can take and pick themselves back up.
Did I go too far? 😋
Oh also killer can tell who has DS and who doesn't.
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If its basekit, wouldn't that be everybody?
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Tunneling is a real issue with this game and is prominent at green and yellow ranks and the devs shouldn't depend on the killer to not tunnel the survivor. They need to enforce it themselves and I felt this solution does that best. Also at such ranks, barely anyone has DS because they are just getting into the game and they have to decide whether or not to spend money on characters like laurie who has DS and getting tunneled leaves a sour taste in their mouth.
At the same time it shouldn't hurt killers who try and play fair. I feel that this change will actually make sure that DS cannot be weaponized (not entirely, there is this protection hit issue), be used as a source of immunity (you have DS? Then you are not doing anything productive) and at the same time punish killers who actively try and tunnel a survivor out immediately once they are unhooked.
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It’s still going to be hard to balance around chase mechanics(remember old legion) but agreed it does need to be changed
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So iv seen a few comments concerned about the tunneling being more common if the timer is reduced etc. This is why is should deactivate after touching a gen (healing is fine and should be encouraged) but increases the stun would massively punish those unsporting players who do tunnel. I dont want the perk to be useless after all I just want a more balanced and fair gameplay at all ranks while discouraging tunneling and using DS to rush gens etc. Without a worry (especially with unbreakable, but this perk is actually fine as it's own)
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Imo DS just needs three changes:
- DS does not activate off of grabs (lockers, gens, totems, etc.)
- If repairing a generator or cleansing a totem, the timer goes 2x faster for as long as you’re doing the action.
- Once you’re fully healed, the perk deactivates.
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Listen, I don't even use DS unless I'm playing horribly/keep getting bad teammates/keep getting tunneling killers (you know, sometimes it's just One of Those Nights), but I never like any of the proposed changes, especially considering DS isn't even supposed to be an anti-tunneling perk, by the word of the devs.
I'm cool with them changing DS to deactivate once a gen gets worked on past 5 seconds (because you can accidentally touch a gen when you're trying to perform another action, depending on your key binds or if you're playing on controller- it shouldn't be an immediate deactivation).
But making it deactivate on grabs is just stupid. People force DS because, uh, yeah, they used up an entire perk slot for it and they shouldn't feel like they need to hand the killer the down... especially if they're getting tunneled LMAO
Also, I 100% do NOT support it deactivating on heals. You can be healed off hook VERY quickly, depending on different factors (Botany Knowledge+Desperate Measures+Medkit? For the People?) and still technically be tunneled. Also, let's not forget that there are plenty of ways to be insta downed while healthy. If someone FtPs you off hook, and then you get insta downed by just-procced NOED, do you deserve to have DS taken away from you? If you heal another person for 2 seconds (finishing their heal), should you lose DS?
Last couple of ideas I've seen thrown around- reducing the stun timer is not an option (as shown by the DS "glitch" that happened around the time of the Blight chapter [lowkey thought it was a test of DS nerfs rather than an actual glitch LMAO]) because it makes the perk worthless. And lowkey? Reducing the timer wouldn't be that great, either. Most survivor mains agree that tier 1 DS (40s) is virtually useless and not worth taking unless you're a really bad survivor getting real deal tunneled in low ranks.
I honestly think DS isn't even in a bad spot where it is. It's an extremely strong perk for survivors... but let's not cap and say that killers don't also have strong perks. If a killer plays around DS regardless of who actually has it or not (one of most powerful aspects of it, even though personally? I usually run into killers who DGAF about the possibility of DS, which is unfortunate for me since I tend not to run it), survivors also play around other killer perks (hiding behind gens/getting into lockers for BBQ, not doubling up on gens for Discordance, dropping items so that they don't lose it to Franklin's, cleansing totems for the possibility of NOED, etc.). BOTH sides are wasting time and inconveniencing themselves over the possibility of perks.
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if it deactivated from healing stealth and insta down killers will allow the heal so they can tunnel, stealth killer gets the free hit and obviously insta down killers just use their power. It also discouragers healing which is what the perk should encourage and this would make perks like we'll make it less useful because you do not want a survivor to be tunneled and die early.
it should just be gens and it should straight up deactivate the perk to prevent survivors from doing gens off hook with another survivor to finish a gen in 20+/- seconds. It shouldn't be influenced by totems because that isn't a objective, i get hexs are a thing but in that instance you should simply take the stun so it is easier to defend the totem especially if they are not on last hook. Also grabs are fine, the ONLY reason killers complain about things like lockers is because they can't slug when a survivor does that which is tunneling and in all other grabs there isn't a problem the perk is fine in that regard because you can avoid that by not going for a grab.
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Deactivate if working on a gen being grabbed and taking a protection hit
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Wait did you really compare DS to BBQ? They aren't even close in power and killers always get nerds to perks constantly, even pop got nerfed even though it really isn't that strong if people do their single objective. But like I said the perk shouldn't offer all the bonuses and for the length of time, survivors dont care or even fear the killer with ds they can just sit on gens and that's alot of freedom because of a perk that triggers after each hook if the killer doesn't get hit by it after the first hook so a single survivor can be immune to being picked up for 120seconds... that's about 3 gens with 1 other person. Simple as make it anti tunnel. Make the stun much longer but if you touch a gen it's gone, it's too much freedom with no indication of who has it or how long is left. It hurts killers trying to play fair and just rewards survivors with little effort, get uncooked and sitting on a gen shouldn't be encouraged. Once again if pop gave too much freedom, DS is much worse. Look what a survivor can do 60seconds (that's about 55%+ of a gen solo where pop can remove at most 25%. Its not balanced and you can't always just avoid DS without massively going out your way to do so, like in my example you can hook someone else cross the map and do another chases on someone who was on a gen just to be hit by DS still. Once again at high skill it isn't balanced, at low level play the survivors aren't efficient so that 60seconds is nothing, they're probably hiding and self caring through sloppy lol
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You mean a good fix for DS would be making the perk that's only active after being recently unhooked and only activates when the killer tried to hook you again in that limited window into an anti-tunneling perk?
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I already came up with a solution to this issue.. It's simple.. Make it so DS can only be used if you're the obsession. And each time a survivor is hooked, they become the new obsession. This will prevent multiple survivors from having DS at the same time and if you choose to hook the same person twice in a row, then you suffer from DS.
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And on the flip side you have killers who don't respect unhooks. Because they feel they don't have to deal with DS since there is no obsession icon.
Look. You just can't keep preaching about "DS changes" if you can't even bring yourself to bringing up HOW Camping and Tunneling are ALSO a problem. Not to mention they don't require a perk with a timer. They are built-in actions/mechanics that are available in every single match. Yet you don't hear survivors complaining about how they are used as "strats".
DS is fine as it is.
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Who are these killers that complain about DS ? I play both killer and survivor at rank 1, and i think DS is not only fine as it is but it is very important because it discourages tunneling. When i enter a game as a killer and there is no obsession i immediatly know that it will be a easy game, because i can proxy camp the hook and tunnel them out of the game if i choose to.
I agree with the guy above me, i think tunneling and camping are boring and unfun for both sides and any perks, like bt and ds that prevent that need to be strong and its a good thing if they are meta.
Its so funny, the perks some killer complain about the most are ds bt and unbreakable, all perks that help against camping/tunneling and slugging, the most unfun ways to play in the game. So the question who these killers are and how they play answers itself. As a rank 1 killer i have no problem with these perks because my playstyle doesnt rely on camping, tunneling and slugging so i hope that they do not get nerfed.
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Killers have plenty of perks that allow them to down survivors in one hit. Survivors can have one perk that makes it take three hits. DS is fine, get over it.
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Here's an idea, again just an idea, but I see at least valid reason for a possible change/nerf to DS especially when used abusively. Here's the potential change: Instead of nerfing the time it stays active or adding specific mechanics deactivating it like touching a gen, how about debuff to stun time every 20 seconds that passes?, that would increase stun time at full to 6 seconds making it really strong within the first 20 seconds but after every 20 seconds it loses 1 second of stun time up to a max of 3 seconds. It would still stun for a decent amount of time at its weakest(3 seconds) and enough even if you downed them immediately after as killer, to waste your time some more dealing with the stun in the first place. Rather than an outright second chance perk to achieve basically another 20s or more of chasing which is brutal against an efficient team.
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I'd like to propose a change to DS
When ever you're fully Healed, begin working on a gen, and of course the 60 seconds. The Perk deactivates, that's all. The reason Killers get so mad at DS is because you can abuse the Perk by working on gens in they're faces. Whilst they could slug most people bring UB to counter the counter. This change still prevents the Killer tunneling you, but means you can't abuse the Perk as much as before. Unless if the Killer wants to follow you like a puppy for 60 secs
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I've already remarked about this elsewhere, but an idea I had revolved around changing Obsession perks on the whole.
Survivor-based Obsession perks would cause serious debuffs while you are the Obsession, making you an easy target or not actively useful to your team, while Killer perks would reward the Killer for leaving you be.
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My conclusion to your topic is:
-You dont know what you are talking about
-DS is super weak and not an anti-tunnel perk at all
-if 60 seconds is too long go after someone else instead of tunneling
-as you say to us survivors I say to you: "git gud"
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Been rank 1 since near release, i never send toxic messages because I think the people that do it are pathetic. I have given example why DS isn't fair and all you people give is "get good or dont tunnel" like no. I dont tunnel and can still get hit by DS, I have said make the stun longer on the killer, balance the damn game not enforce baby survivors, imagine sitting on a gen just because you have DS. If perks like pop get nerfed DS needs to be changed to an anti-tunnel perk not a "I can't be picked up for 60seconds gg ez"
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Well my choice was to buff the stun on ds so tunnelers are hit harder, I also encourage as much as possible to not camp. Someone even in this thread compared DS to BBQ... like no. I want balance and I dont support camping etc. I have also suggested BT be on a range to stop stealth camping, but that's not what I'm talking about on this thread.
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I've started running DS yesterday because I am running a build that gets me tunnelled (for practice), and I've found, the fairest thing to do is let the DS spin out if you aren't being tunneled, makes life a lot more fun for the killer, I had my fun with the chase, I don't want to spoil the killers time
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The problem is that this game isn’t able to tell when someone is using DS as a strat vs because they felt they could. Just like with Camping/Tunneling.
So you could have a scenario where someone gets unhooked, killer comes back, tracks them down and by that point they might be getting healed nearby in a corner or started working on a gen... which if theoretically we went by your rule of touching a gen that would still negate the perks core purpose.
It’s the same thing with Camping, sometimes it’s a necessary evil, but the game cannot understand between legit hardcore camping vs Camping because they saw two survivors nearby.
Personally if it bothers people that much, I think they should base it on heal. So if someone gets back to full health they can deactivate DS as much as they want because by that point even if the killer came back to tunnel in some form, the survivor still had another chance. Without the hindering leftover timer.
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I'd be okay with them keeping DS even after being healed, it's the gen issue that bothers people that's it. Touch a gen and its deactivated so you can't actively progress the game while technically being invincible it just seems unfair. Like I said I'm all for balance and against tunneling etc. Its why I'd be okay with a bigger stun to punish tunnelers but it's kinda unfair to cross the map after hooking someone to see on a gen, you chase and pick them up but get hit by DS. Time is important at high skill games and with mmr itll be needed
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I get what you’re saying, I just think that it is also unfair that a survivor who just got unhooked loses their DS just by touching a gen. There should still be some type of timer involved.
Imagine the survivor got on a gen and the killer decides they want to break chase with the next person being chased.
The perk itself was never meant to strictly be an anti-tunnel perk because it doesn’t even stop the tunneler. I play killer as well and when I get stunned they have to be very lucky with a set up because normally they go down in 10 seconds after the stun.
I honestly wish the perk was more dynamic. This is why I like how Friday the 13th sets up their knife stuns. You actually have to find them.
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I have the same thoughts on Spirit as I do about DS.
It's not the end of the world if it doesn't get reworked. But if they do I'd rather it/they stay viable. I dislike Spirit/DS immensely but seeing it/them nerfed into the dirt and never be used seriously again would further dilute the viable perk/killer pool and make the game even less engaging and remove specific playstyles.
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Well I feel ds should be anti-tunnel, if you can heal and then work on a gen you are freely up to be chases and put pressure on, like if survivors are aggressively pushing gens the killer should need to be hit by DS especially after you have hooked others etc. Just leave a bitter taste when you're trying to play fair regardless and still get punished. Like I'll hardly ever slug and I'll play all killers etc. But its honestly just not fair with the sort of skilled players I get, when everyone knows loops and can run them well with meta perks it's all abit much to still have fun and play in a fun way that's all.
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Well I dont want things pointless just balanced, iv owned the game since release and have seen alot of DS changes but this one is annoying when play with high skilled efficient players, my most hated killer is trapper lol, I hate him so much as no one seems to disarm the traps haha so I'd take spirit anyway over him but some killers need love, dont see half of them sadly
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As much as I hate to say it, it is bound to happen.
It happens when survivors don’t immediately unhook in front of the killer’s face, only to have the killer come back as soon as the icon goes from hooked to unhooked. Now that survivor will be forced to be slugged simply for playing “fair”.
All I am saying is that if touching a gen is going to deplete DS, then seconds idling at a hook needs to give survivors a repair buff. Because it has to be a two way road.
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Its funny to me that the first/second versions of DS actually had more counterplay than the rework that was supposed to make it "more fair".
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DS needs to deactivate in game once the survivors does anything gam related. Does a gen, goes in a locker, heals. be healed, check a chest, does a totem and so. You aren't tunnelling a player if the characters is doing something in game.
I've downed a player, gone all way across map chasing some, downed them, hooked them, returned to 1st downed player and been hit with a DS.
It's about time DS got a massive nerf on it.
The amount of times that a survivor has ran up to hook just to get grabbed by me so they can use DS and unhook a survivor and run off.
Nerf DS.
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I really don't know why people keep trying to add deactivation conditions to perks, it is a terrible idea because it punishes technical play such as gen tapping if you have sufficient distance. Any killer worth their salt will simply play around it for 10 or so seconds before switching back and hard tunnelling.
Instead, change it to be a per hook state mechanic. Give it 30 seconds per hook state (so still keeping the 60 seconds total but in a less oppressive manner). Chasing the survivor freezes the timer (similar to the pig traps) and leave the existing mechanisms in play. If you manage to down the rescuer, hook them, get back on the original target and then either down them or force a locker the 5 seconds or so you'll have to wait for it to run out is nowhere near as punishing. Quite frankly if you're downing people that quickly you've pretty much already won anyway)
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Honestly, the usefulness of DS or the idea of an "anti-tunnel perk" shows that tunneling is a problem. I believe it is because it can be unfun, but it is also one of the few viable strategies a killer can do sometimes. The fact that BHVR made a band-aid fix for it just makes it worse over time. It is like putting a bandage on a gunshot wound.
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