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Should map offerings be disabled in a SWF party of a certain size?
I'm kind of getting tired of playing teams who, beyond the obvious advantage of being in comms, also request one of the most OP maps in the game.
I mean, is victory even enjoyable when there's that many variables stacked in your favor? (Obviously they'll also be running at least 2 DS/UB, usually a key and maybe an OoO too if you're lucky. But let's try and limit the discussion to just map offerings for now).
Kinda sick of playing Ormond or Haddonfield.
Comments
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Map Offerings should be disabled in general.
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Map Offerings are fine. Once the Maps are reworked, nobody will care for them anyway.
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I have no problem with Haddonfield. Keep me out of that God forsaken swamp, please.
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The problem is unbalance maps not the offering. This is for survivor and killer. Stoo with hadonfield and mayers ninja in lerys
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The Bus is fine. Not every strong Loop needs to be nerfed into Oblivion. Its not like playing Killer is hard in general, if there are some strong Loops it is ok. Even with the good window the Bus is not as strong as the Loops which were in the game before (or are still in the game on the Live Version (Disturbed Ward)).
Let alone that burning an Autohaven-Offering does not really guarantee a pretty survivor-sided Map, especially with all those Deadzones added to them.
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You're in luck my dude, I think I've probably seen 2 survivors burn a swamp offering in about 3 months of playing 😃
Whilst yes I think they should always try to balance maps, the problem for me is the fact that a team who knows a map well (specific loops or whatever) can request a map. It's just another thing that, on its own is fine, but used by a swf, can just add an extra fairly significant advantage.
Sure, as a Killer you ought to know all the maps anyway, so just "get good" at that map I guess. But if they balance a map, then I guess a new map becomes the most "unbalanced" map and then that's the one you start seeing get abused in what feels almost a third of games.
As a Killer you have to design your build to be flexible for any map, it should be the same way for survivors, especially a large team with 16 perk slots.
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In an ideal world, a map offering to any map would be just fine.
In current day DbD, there's a map tier list.
A lot of abusable things by SWF ought to be changed/removed, and Strode Realty Key, the Pied Piper and Heart Locket are a couple of 'em.
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No, because you can just use a sacrificial ward
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Negative.
It's not always apparent if you are facing a SWF though. So you'd basically have to burn one most games.
Burning the sacrificial ward each time is not a sustainable solution, it's a rare item which has to be unlocked at the expense of other more useful things you would buy with blood points, and also it has to be used in place of another offering such as a Survivor Pudding which continues to benefit you.
Meanwhile, all the swf has to do is have 1 of 2/3/4 people burn their offering whilst the others burn whatever they want. They can also co-ordinate their blood webs to evenly rotate so they can unlock things as efficiently as they like (taking turns to acquire the map offering).
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That’s the risk and gamble you take. Use it, or don’t.
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No thanks, I've got about 2 million perks to unlock, I'm not wasting precious BP on sacrificial wards which then may or may not bring value.
But anyways, it's fine if we disagree, I just think blocking map offerings is one potential fix which might be small from a code/implementation perspective, but have a decent impact on SWF experience.
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Did you know that killers can burn map offerings too?
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Map offerings should be their own item type similar to event items and be a lot less likely to appear on the Bloodweb. I don't want to see more than 2 per Bloodweb it really detracts from my killer experience.
I do agree about map offerings being disabled in SWF but I feel the offering system in general needs an overhaul not just for SWF. If anything there should be multiple offering categories each player can use. Map offerings would be in a category of its own and that way killer could use what ever offering they wanted + map offerings and I feel that would even it out with survivors and SWF.
Realm Category - Map Offerings / Bloodied & Torn Blueprint / Annotated & Vigo's Blueprint / Sacrificial Ward
Map Effect Category - Coin Offering, Fog Offerings, Hook Offerings
Player Effect Category - Mori / Shroud / Luck / Bloodpoints / White & Black Ward
You only get two offering slots as killer. Keep SWF as is.
So would you agree that's a fair compromise? Give killer more control by giving them more offering slots and that way it doesn't take away from survivors.
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Yep
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Not a bad idea.
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I like the idea of the offerings banning those realms instead of picking them.
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I mean, you already have offering canceling other map offerings (unless there are 4). Just give killers notification on who is in swf and who is not.
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I´d say they should be either removed in SWF or map offering logic should be fixed. What I mean by this is that the Killer map offering should take priority, but not completely. The formula could look something like this:
Killer offering >1-2 Survivor offerings
Killer offering = 3 Survivor offerings (50/50)
4 Survivors offerings > Killer offering
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He probably does not want to do that, because he has so many Perks to unlock.
So please, disable Map Offerings so that Killers can get more BPs and dont need to burn Map Offerings themselves. /s
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Kinda disagree on this one. A good Survivor can´t get hit there before entity blocker kicks in, which in my opinion is a problem with the loop, and this doesn´t even take the pallet into account.
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OP, the answer is "No." For every map someone loves, another hates. There are maps some survivors love like Ormond, that other survivors don't. Run the offering that wipes out all map offerings or run your own map offering as a counter if you are concerned. No need to limit people's offering options.
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Many of the reworked maps are still incredibly survivor sided. Suffocation pit, Gas heaven and all badham maps come to mind. From the looks of things disturbed ward is still gonna be unbalanced and the issue of too many god pallets on game still hasn't been resolved.
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Sorry, if you really think that Suffocation Pit or Gas Heaven are survivor-sided, then you should try to search the problem in your own gameplay and not blame the Maps. Badham is also pretty balanced.
Killers always want to balance around the Top Levels, but call balanced Maps like Suffocation Pit survivor-sided... You cannot imagine the stuff they come up with.
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Suffo pit is large and survivor spawns are almost always split, making it hard for them to group up unless they get overly desperate for unhooks which good players wont do. The main building is a semi infinite with a breakable wall, shack is surrounded by safe filler pallets.
The main thing which makes it survivor sided is that the centre of the map has about 5 or 6 chained tiles which can make some insane setups where you cannot be caught. This consists of jungle gyms, tls, and c wall pallets.
Gas heaven has 3 almost inaccessable gens, one in main and 2 at the edges of the stacked cars. Not only are these hard to access but herding survivors at the stacked cars to prevent W gaming is impossible. Object makes the stacked cars even worse like the upstairs on widwich.
Main has a semi infinite window when garage gen is done or a normal window, but also has a forced breakable wall spawn that you have to break.
If you look at how some survivors can use these maps it really isn't balanced. Id argue that suffo pit in particular is in the top 5 worst klller maps in the game.
EDIT: Also saying badham is balanced is a joke when it has 3 god buildings with gens inaccessible locations.
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Only issue with that is that then it will be difficult to have per example mirror myers on a map where it is actually useful.
Besides that yes, kinda bored of going against docs on the game map and blendettes on the saloon
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Auto haven either has a loop every inch or half the map is a dead zone. Really she they would tone down the rng
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Probably I'll sound biased but I have no problems with a killer burning a map offering. Just like I have no problems with solo survivors burning map offerings. It's just stacked teams burning the same maps all the time that is tedious for me. The map offerings are designed to be played by solo players, which is why they can cancel each other out, and they must be used at the expense of other offerings. When a team is on Comms and can essentially share one offering between 3 or 4 people is when it becomes a problem, for me.
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I respect you but this is your dumbest take in my opinion. Theres 4 survivors and 1 killer and the sacrificial ward is 1 of 30 green offerings vs 1 of 23 map offerings. Whats the chances to happen one of the 4 survivors has a map offering (with their being 4 of them and 1 of you) and you having a sacrificial ward to stop it. (Which the survivors are allowed to cancel out anyway by just stacking). The survivors have a 4x chance of getting haddonfield for instance since a 1 in 23 chance is 4%. (But a 1 in 30 chance if i don't actually compare the chances and use sacrifical wards actual chance to appear is actually 3% for the killer to get sacrificial ward). BUT Anyways times survivors 4% by 4 survivors theres a 16% percent chance a survivor gets haddonfield compared to the killers 3% for a sacrifical ward. NOT to mention survivor and killer map offerings have the same power so if i burn my own to counterbalance most of the time its double haddonfield to completly nullify any chances i had. "Its a risk you take" most killers are always at the survivors whim in most cases. Survivors can also plan their build accordingly to the map offering their bringing like 4 balanced landing haddonfield. And if im forced to be taken to haddonfield one more ######### time as hillbilly i will personally find the offering user and slug them the entire 4 minutes. Theres a simple solution since the killer is in a 4 to 1 offering battle for map offerings make the killers offering equal 2 survivors making it a 50/50 if two survivors bring haddonfield i have a chance to use my own.
Post edited by supersonic853 on2 -
I love when people change my argument so they have an easier position in the debate.
I never said disable map offerings, I said disable them for swfs of a certain size.
The map offerings are designed to be played my multiple players since they don't guarantee anything and multiple ones can be played by different survivors and the killer. In a swf lobby it's all too easy to game the system and just have one member of the lobby play the offering each time, and the team as a whole gets to play that map again and again and again.
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Like i told theclownisking there are 23 map offerings (30 greens in total) making it a 3% to bring a sacrifical ward vs the 16% of a survivor bringing haddonfield since theres 4 survivors. Survivors can also if i bring my own just stack two haddonfield because i would know im playing with a 4 man rn and 2 of them have more then 10 haddonfields the other has 5 and i have 16 we can probably play haddonfield for the rest of the day if we wanted and theres nothing the killer can do about it. Ey at least i can use balanced landing for a whole day. (Let it be known i am not defending completly disabling map offerings for swf just raise the killers offering chance for map offering so killers equals 2 survivors since its literally a 4v1 in offerings) but thats just math im sure you've gone to school.
Post edited by supersonic853 on0 -
Suffocation Pit has the 7th big size of all realms:
Tied with e.g. Ironworks, where I never hear complaints that it is too big. In fact, it is only a little bit above average. But yeah "too big".
While the middle area is indeed probably the strongest Part of this Map, it is not like this area is too strong. The Building is also fine, yes, it has a breakable Wall, but honestly, just break it. People always try to use those as the worst thing that ever happened, but Breakable Walls are completely fine, they waste a little bit of time but the structure is incredible weak afterwards.
And well, looking how some Survivors run those... Yeah, sorry that good Survivors can outplay a bad Killer. :(
When it comes to Badham, only the Pallets inside Buildings are save, e.g. I mostly ignore the School and the House with the Basement. And all the outside Pallets are unsafe, its not like you cannot play on this Map as Killer.
But like I said, KIllers want to balance around Top Level-play, but also want Maps to be super-weak.
Yeah, but like he said, you can burn an Offering yourself. But you refuse to do it, because you want your sweet BPs, but obviously Map Offerings are a problem then. The only thing that is more ridiculous is people saying that the Killer should be able to choose the Map (which was an idea which came up multiple times on this Forum).
And the problem currently are the Maps, not the Offerings for them. If Maps like Haddonfield or Coldwind (even tho, I only consider Cowshed a problem, but I dont have much issue looking through Corn) are reworked, they will also be more fair to play on.
The only change to Map Offerings should be that if the Map was not picked (due to another Offering), the Offering should not be burned.
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I'm not going to bother explaining to you again how the killer managing to burn an offering against SWFs which are not always obviously SWF is not a realistic system. I already explained that and also supersonic did a good job explaining it twice in the messages above too.
Also I disagree with your other point too. How can you say to me I should have to burn a sacrificial ward each time and run the risk of losing that, yet a SWF who burn a map offering and somehow still don't get the map should get their offering back.
Do you main survivor swf by any chance?
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You highly underestimate how strong that middle area is, not only is it guaranteed tiles, but also chained tiles. I've had setups where I literally cannot be caught until the windows get entity blocked, and if they do there's most likely another tile nearby to break BL.
The breakable wall in main isn't the issue, that's just a side issue that shouldn't be in the game in the first place. The issue is that with a slight amount of distance the building can be looped around over and over with no killer interaction, it may as well be an infinite (obv excluding certain killers like nurse).
Sure, if the killer is on your ass literally then the window won't do much, but give it a slight bit of distance and you can use the window 3 times over or until it gets entity blocked.
As for it being large, I should've said that the distance between gens is large, which forces you to 3 gen. This can be both good and bad depending on the situation. Against people who know how to split gens, you have to start holding a 3 gen down early giving you less time to work with.
As for badham, every survivor just runs to a building when hit so ignoring them makes you lose a lot of chases. Not only that gens are in these buildings so if the survivors do open gens and leave the ones in buildings to last there's very little you can do.
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Survivors in general shouldn't dictate where the game is being played.
One of my top three balance issues in the game our survivor map offerings. I'll take 4 keys over a map offering all day everyday.
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"Also I disagree with your other point too. How can you say to me I should have to burn a sacrificial ward each time and run the risk of losing that, yet a SWF who burn a map offering and somehow still don't get the map should get their offering back."
What? I did not say that. I said that the Offering which is not used should not be burned. This goes for both sides. If a Killer burns a Map Offering (like an Indoor Map for Ghostface, Wraith, whatever) and gets the Map requested by the Survivors, they should not lose their Offering. Same the other way around.
And nope, I am playing both sides pretty equal, both Rank 1, I do play only 2-man SWF when playing Survivor tho, if I play alone, I play Killer. And I never use Map Offerings as Survivor and only sometimes as Killer (mostly Mirror Myers on Lerys or for an Archive-Challenge).
(For me personally, they can remove Map Offerings, I dont use them that much, like I said. However, I also think it is totally fine to burn them, I also see Survivors burn MacMillan, probably just to have a normal game on a balanced Map. I also dont think that it is bad that some Maps are survivor-sided and some are killer-sided, it is more the case of how much they favor one side, and this will be dealt with with the Map Reworks)
The Breakable Walls make the Buldings weak and they are not even close to be an infinite then. And without the Walls, after the Reworks, those Main Buldings did not have anything, they got a bit stronger because of those, but thats it. In an ideal world, Breakable Walls would not exist, I dont like them, but I dont think they are badly placed (except for the Storehouse, where they removed the Pallets for a strong Window, which becomes weak once the wall is broken and on the Saloon, which needs multiple Walls to break).
"As for it being large, I should've said that the distance between gens is large, which forces you to 3 gen. This can be both good and bad depending on the situation. Against people who know how to split gens, you have to start holding a 3 gen down early giving you less time to work with."
Ok, I can get behind that, however, every Killer who can start chasing Survivors right from the start (so Killers who dont need Setup), can patrol basically the whole map. And Survivors mess up those Maps like Resting Place or Suffocation Pit quite often, I cannot count how often one Gen I left on 99% on one side got finished by someone who did not even think one second why that Gen was only ALMOST finished.
And for Setup-Killers, those can go for a 3-Gen. I dont see much of an issue here, even if someone is going for a 3 Gen right from the start on those Maps, this is a legit strategy and not a bad one either.
"As for badham, every survivor just runs to a building when hit so ignoring them makes you lose a lot of chases. Not only that gens are in these buildings so if the survivors do open gens and leave the ones in buildings to last there's very little you can do."
When Bloodlust was disabled, I got Badham quite often (apparently it was bugged during that time, appearing more often than usual), and I did fine. And I am mostly playing M1-Killers, so no Nurse or Spirit or stuff like that.
From my own experience, the Maps mentioned are good playable as Killer. And I would not consider myself a really good Killer, so I am pretty sure that many others will do well on those Maps as well.
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OK so are you saying that if a sacrificial ward is burned and a map offering is not used, then the sacrificial ward should also not be burned? If so, then maybe your solution to just spam sacrificial wards every match is more realistic.
Let me explain, it's not purely about me wanting to burn survivor puddings and just get blood points all the time. I don't have a "main" killer, I'm new to the game and I'm still trying out pretty much all the Killers. It's really unrealistic for me to run a sacrificial ward every match. I'd basically have to run through multiple bloodwebs before every game, as you don't always see them in the bloodweb. We're talking burning 50k bloodpoints or something before every game. Sure I can still unlock perks as I go. If you are saying that sacrificial wards will also be protected if a map offering was not burnt, then maybe this is fair.
In contrast, given a 3 man swf, they can just run the same survivor, since the gameplay difference between survivors is non-existent. So it's much easier for them to stockpile map offerings on one survivor than it is for me stockpile sacrificial wards across multiple killers. Then on top of that, they can literally stockpile offerings across their profiles since they will always play together. It's much easier for them to ensure they play the same map every game, than it is for me to prevent this in all matches across all Killers.
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I am not talking about Sacrificial Wards, I am talking about Map Offerings. I have never used the word Sacrificial Ward at all, in my opinion, those are pretty useless. Only the Killer can really use them if they suspect that they go against Survivors who might burn a Map Offering (which is already ridiculous how much the Killer has to guess at this point, for Survivors the Wards are pretty much useless).
I was talking about burning a Map Offering, even if Survivors burn one, you at least have a chance that your Map is picked. And if not, the Offering which was not used, should not be burned. Again - not talking about Sacrificial Wards here (even tho, those would clearly be better if they would not be burned if no Map Offering is played).
While Survivors indeed can stockpile Offerings, since not everyone plays every Survivor, I rarely see Map Offerings. They are not common, I have like 90 Strode Reality Keys and never use them, but this means that other Survivors have a similar number of Map Offerings, I am most likely not the exception. So its not like Map Offerings are used frequently.
And once the Maps are reworked, it should be better, at least no Killer should have the feeling that the game is over when the Survivors burn a Strode Reality Key (for example).
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I'm all for it.
But in exchange Killer Add-Ons should be disabled in Solo Q.
Way too many broken killer add-ons in this game but nobody bats an eyelash. They might be good for an SWF team. Maybe, if the SWF is actually good and organized. But against Solo Q a lot of add-ons are too powerful.
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Yeah the reason you have lots of map offerings is precisely because you don't use them. My point is, even for a swf who does use them, it's still easy to stack them, or at least have a small number of them and be able to consistently use them and play the map they want to play, all the time, whilst also reaping the benefits of communication.
The problem with simply reworking the maps is that a new map will become THAT map which a Killer facing a swf will see all the time.
Finally, even if the SWF is consistently requesting a map which is not actually OP, it's still unfair in my opinion, as they are routinely playing a map they know well, which gives them a further advantage over the Killer (on top of the usual meta builds + constant communication).
If you want to play a map all the time, or just play it for practice, you should just play private lobbies in my opinion. Selecting the map has no place in ranked game modes in my opinion, and is one of the few things that might actually be a small and achievable change for the devs to make, and have a sizeable impact on swf gameplay.
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Sure, I suppose if they implement some feature which detects if a lobby has a SWF, and conditionally deactivates some part of the build (the map offering), then I suppose it could also be extended to easily disable add-ons in the presence of no SWF.
I guess if you are running something like bloody glove on Oni, then yeah it's a guaranteed win against Solo (well maybe not if you get an outdoor map).
The problem here is there are some Killers which rely on add-ons to be half decent. But then again, it's probably the SWF again here which makes certain add ons crucial for success, so yeah maybe disabling these in Solo Q would be fine.
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That’s the whole point of Sacrificial Ward existing. If a team is dead set on their strategy working in Haddonfield, and they suspect a potential Sacrificial Ward, they’d have to burn 4 strode keys to be sure.
But what this also means for the killer is that the survivors are forfeiting any White Wards, Shrouds, Coins, or Salty Lips (if they’re doing self unhook builds + anti slug builds), which to me makes being sent to Haddonfield not feel as bad.
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Doesn't change the fact your "just use sacrificial 4head" is impossible with sacrificials rate of 3% to survivors haddonfield or really any map they want of 16 percent. Its a 4v1 mate their gonna have advantage in numbers always. And if their bringing me to haddonfield or a certain map they probably have a build for said map forcing me into a worse situation since even 2 survivors maps beats the killers one and they can all just bring balanced landing for instance to have a giant map advantage. Sure they may be sacrificing another build but why would they bring haddonfield for no reason? Its like me bringing the game for doctor.
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Who "suspects a potential sacrificial ward"???
From the survivors point of view the lobby is literally exactly the same each time, how could a team ever "suspect a sacrificial ward". LMAO
Literally every time this has happened, it's been a single Strode Key that has brought me to that wonderful map.
Have you actually ever seen 4x of any map offerings? How many times has that happened to you, I'm genuinely curious.
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I'm personally fine with playing as killer on Haddonfield, but backwater swamp is horrible.
I hate it with all of the rage in my heart
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I don't mind it so much as Huntress, if I'm playing Oni or some M1 killer I hate it though
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They should be disabled until maps actually get reworked.
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What are we supposed to do with all the map offerings then? The bloodweb gives them, whether we like it or not, and they cost BP. Not being able to use them is just...no.
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What does that remind me of? Oh yeah, Mori's being rendered totally useless.
Don't get me wrong, I can see why the mori change was good, but let's not pretend BHVR don't have a history of nerfing things to the point of being useless.
You can still use your map offerings in Solo Q I guess. Or if you're the type to hoard them for the sake of it, well you could think of them as a more valuable antique at that point...
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Remove them from the game and give everyone a BP refund for all the map offerings they lose.
Make Map Offerings only available in KYF.
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This comment made me laugh openly at work.
"It's not like playing Killer is hard in general".
#########, please. If you're saying that, clearly you have yet to see what true suffering is in this game.
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