http://dbd.game/killswitch
Ideas for tamping down on camping and tunneling
Here are some thoughts on camping and tunneling. Maybe they're really stupid -- and I'm sure people in this discussion will no doubt delight in telling me all the ways that they are stupid -- but this is just my brain coming up with ideas, and I don't necessarily see all the potential holes in them just yet.
Camping:
- Every X total seconds that the killer spends within Y meters of a hooked survivor (with no other survivor nearby), the hooked survivor receives a buff with the effects of Borrowed Time.
- The hooked survivor can receive two charges of this BT buff per hook.
- If the hooked survivor has two charges, and someone unhooks them, one charge transfers to the unhooker.
- The idea is that this guarantees a free escape if the killer lingers, which is a big punishment for the camping behavior.
- Perhaps if gens are finished and/or doors have been started (open or not), this logic stops, because it would keep the killer from securing kills (which is now their only goal).
- Same deal if there are only two survivors left, maybe, because at that point it's a valid strategy to guard the next-to-last hook (as there's only one survivor left to go for a save).
Tunneling:
- If a survivor gets hooked within 30 seconds of being unhooked, they simply experience the same hook state again.
- The idea is to deter the killer from tunneling, at all. At worst, a just-unhooked survivor gets slugged, but teammates have a chance to save them.
- This would obviously have no impact on the last survivor, as it would speed through the phases and kill them.
These ideas come from a default position that these behaviors are largely unsportsmanlike and negative, and that tamping down on them would be a net positive to the game. Note that I am not a "main" of either role, and I cheered on the Mori nerf and Decisive Strike nerf equally. Keys need to get fixed too, and probably stuff like Huntress' iridescent heads.
Discuss.
Comments
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No, survivors would just abuse it and dive bomb the hook or just run around the hooked victim just screwing the killer over.
If the killer really just camping just rush gens to punish them. So 5 gens already done? What else is the killer gonna do?
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Most of the time the reason why you were camped or tunneled isn't because the killer is mean or lazy, it's because you were unhooked less than ten seconds after you were hooked and your teammate ditched you.
It is extremely rare I do not have someone unhooked while I am still right there kicking a gen or placing a power. If the survivors I play could chill the ######### out long enough to let me walk away I'd probably be distracted by something. Instead I turn around and see three sets of eyes peeking at me from behind vaults and bushes.
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Both of these are WAYYYYYY too overpowered.
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Then just make it work until ECG or until there are gens to do.
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The camping idea hard punishes M1 killers who use camping on occasion strategically but is also 100% useless vs facecampers as they'll just use Bubba (as they do now) and facecamp you with chainsaw so you're not getting unhooked at all. It wouldn't work, sorry.
The tunneling idea would again, just very slightly delay the act of tunneling. DS already does that and better, for 1 min each hook stage. Hard tunneler just throws the game only to kill single person, they'd slug you for 4 minutes just to bleed you out if they really hard tunnel so this change wouldn't be impactful vs abuse of tunneling at all.
Ideas are appreciated but devs and the community were thinking of good ways to lessen tunneling for almost 5 years and there still isn't any good way to do so. It's very improbable to fix something so complex on a whim. They would affect and help survivors with those issues ofc but not in a good way for the game.
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Here are my thoughts on your thoughts; they are terrible. I'm not delighting in having to explain this to you. In fact, I find it really tedious. However, you took the time to write out your thoughts, so it is only fair that I answer them in a way that I hope will clarify the situation. I'm going to go in the opposite order that you did, and start with what has commonly become known as "Tunneling" although this is NOT the actual definition.
- Your first idea that the Survivor hooked again within 30 seconds of being unhooked simply returns to the same hook state is on its face laughable and easily abused. You must remember that the DEV have attempted to discourage camping and tunneling previously and found that every effort the made was abused in OBSCENE ways by Survivors. Consider that one Survivor could continue to waste a Killer's time by jumping on objectives in his/her face and force the Killer to spend time on them over and over again. If they are hooked, they just start over. If they are slugged they haven't lost anything and can bring other Perks to offset. Consider the potential for No Mither being used in the scenario you created. I can think of at least six other ways to abuse the hell out of this. And where on Earth did you get (30) seconds from? That is a lifetime in this game.
- You second point is this is to deter the Killer from tunneling. This can be done a lot of OTHER ways already. For one thing, the person who unhooked the Survivor can choose to do a SAFE unhook, rather than basically farming the poor sap. They can bring Borrowed Time which makes hitting the just unhooked person not productive at all. And most importantly, something that used to be common, that person can be there to take the protection hit. Today it seems more common to unhook the person for the altruism while beating feet and leaving them to get hooked all over again. That isn't how the game used to be played. When you go in for a risky unhook, the idea is that you are there to trade hooks, making a tactical call for the team. At the very least, you are there to take a protection hook so they can get away. The Killer can also be given other options such as Survivors making NOISE somewhere else to divert them and make the odds of a safe rescue more likely. I could go on and on. There are lots of ways to deter the tunnel, but the most basic ones are for the would-be rescuer to be there to take their lumps.
- Your third point is that your change would not affect the Survivor as it would speed them through their phases. This is nonsensical and at odds with your 1st point. If they start over at their previous stage, they get another whole minute. Or did you mean to indicate that getting hooked again starts their clock exactly where it was when they got unhooked? If so, you need to be very clear about that. The way you have it written they are getting that same Hook state all over again.
Now let's look at your ideas on camping.
- Your first idea doesn't seem outrageous in theory, but in application it is a mess. If anything, it increases the probability that you are going to get camped out of existence. If the Killer knows that your Borrowed Time (if someone even has it to try and unhook you) is going to get lengthened, why not make sure that can't happen by ENSURING you got to the next hook state. Given your views on getting hooked again within (30) seconds, you are making it VITAL to the Killer that they make sure you go to Stage-2 (or sac out) while on the hook. You are creating the inverse of your goal, by incentivizing the Killer to camp for effect.
- The charges thing is needlessly complicated and only further encourages the Killer to make sure you die on the hook.
- The transfer of charges only further ensures the Killer is going to make sure you die on the hook.
- You seem to think that Killers are Bots and don't have agency. You feel they should be punished for making a tactical choice you don't like. If you want, Pac Man is still available online (for free) and you can fight all the Bot Killers you want. This game is about agency, so that it isn't dull. Killers and Survivors both make choices, and every choice has consequences. The moment you used the word "punishment" you were in the wrong, because the DEV have ALREADY stated that camping and tunneling both are legitimate tactics that can be employed by the Killer. You don't punish people for legitimate choices.
- You go on to state that PERHAPS it is ok once the Generators are done (camping that is). How generous of you to decide you might throw the Killers a bone of when they may decide what they are allowed to do.
- Same thing here, you at least realize that camping does have a purpose.
Now, that I have answered your points, allow me to retort.
If the meaning of the song isn't obvious, you already have the tools to do what you want, as do all the Survivors in the match with you. YOU can make that difference in playing the game. So stop trying to blame the Killer or the game for getting tunneled or camped.
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@Moundshroud Like I said, I am just spitballing here. Maybe I am overshooting with some of the details (you are of course right to point out that 30 seconds is a LOT of time), and I did say that there are probably some holes in my thinking, so thanks for pointing out some of the ways that this could potentially be abused. The notion that this stuff can be fixed with perks is something we already know, but my idea is that these are much more fundamental issues that ought to be discouraged more by the core game mechanics, without an aggrieved player having to use their limited loadout slots to deal with them.
That's the bigger impasse here. My position -- which I stated upfront -- is that I reject the idea that these behaviors should be encouraged, outside of specific cases where the killer has nothing better to do (i.e. gens are done, so I might as well guard my kill by any means necessary). On this we seem to disagree, so any counterargument that spawns from that is fundamentally putting us at odds, because it boils down to my "this is a problem that needs to be addressed" vs. your "this is not a problem and needs no solution, because the devs said so and hence no reason for discussion."
Re: Some specific points -- my last tunneling point is specifically to say "last living survivor would still get sped thru the hook phases as they do now," which would mean it would continue to be a nonissue. And as far as the proposed BT effect, I'm not thinking of it as something that lengthens a BT perk, but just something that gets applied regardless of the perk. Either there is a BT effect, or there isn't. I'm not imagining this as something that would add time or extra hits to a BT user's effect.
Also, not every post needs to be some grand attempt at a mic drop. Just saying.
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The grand post, mic drop point is well stated, and not really my intention. I'm just thorough when I answer people and it often comes across that way. We do fundamentally disagree on whether or not tunneling and camping are a problem. I don't see it as one, and would be bored to tears if every game played out the same way. What is worse, if Killers did not have these options, Survivors have the tools to abuse and win game after game in simple mathematical attrition.
My point, which you did not address, is that Survivors themselves already have the ability to deter tunneling, but seem unwilling to do a proper rescue, i.e. one that includes sometime taking those protection hits. Camping likewise has in game solutions which cure the behavior just fine. In short, I believe most in game problems of "agency" require in game solutions. The DEVs can't fix this issue for us because it is something that we have to counter play. Anything they would do would just further tilt the game, and they know it.
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Not that I need to elaborate because I know you and everyone else here has been through this exact same thing and understand the frustration, but I'll use a game I played yesterday to illustrate. I get caught first by Cannibal, early in the game before any gens pop, after some decent looping. He downs me, hooks me, facecamps me with Insidious. My misplay obviously because I got downed, but I am not the best looper even at rank 3, so you can point the finger at me for making a mistake, sure.
In any case, there I am on my first hook, Cannibal unmoving. I've got Kindred so everyone sees what's happening and does gens, which I would call the objectively correct play in this scenario. Three gens pop, I die after a full struggle phase, Cannibal repeats the routine with one more player. The other two get out. From where I'm sitting, the optimal play was that I had nothing to do from the hook onward except struggle. In any argument about player agency, you've got to acknowledge that: I could do nothing but hang, because the killer unilaterally decided "Screw my goals, I'm making sure this guy dies, it's early in the game and I am not even gonna care about gens."
But you can see how a rescue attempt would be a huge risk, and would set the group back and risk more deaths, as opposed to just doing gens and letting me die. I don't think anyone can argue in good faith that this kind of match is in the spirit of how the game is intended to be played, and this is a behavior pattern that I feel like the game needs to actively shoot down. I know camping has its tactical uses and on this we agree, but I also think that deterring what I have just described would result in a major net positive, despite the possibility of completely nuking some of those tactical uses. I've seen the developer argument that punishing camping/tunneling would result in more boring games (this was just mentioned on this week's stream), but I have to believe that there is a strong solution that remains to be discovered here.
I appreciate your intention for thoroughness.
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A couple of things:
- You are being too hard on yourself. Of course the Cannibal eventually got you down; that is a given. Even great Loopers know that eventually the chase is going to end with them going down, or at least they go into that chase making that assumption. My point is that anytime he was chasing you was time the others SHOULD have been doing Generators.
- Consider this, the Cannibal first had to find you which probably took at least 15-30 seconds. Then the Cannibal had to chase you. You said you did some decent looping so lets assume that you ran him for 15-20 seconds. Now that he has downed you he has to get you to a hook. Let's just set aside 10 more seconds for that. Do you see where I'm going with this. We have already accounted for almost a minute. If your peers were on Generators (where they should have been) the first three Generators (at the very least two) should be popping by the time you are put on that hook or shortly thereafter.
- That means that there are still 3 Survivors out there to work on Generators for the next TWO minutes of you being squatted on by that toad the Cannibal. It means there is no reason all five Generators should not come up by the time you are being sacrificed. There should even be some time to get a gate open or nearly open.
- This means best case scenario, the Cannibal should get perhaps ONE more Survivor if he goes to the right gate and intercepts. Squatting (what I call Face Camping) is not an effective strategy unless the Survivors MAKE it effective.
So when you tell me that story I have to ask what the HELL were your teammates doing during that 1st minute while you were being chased? Clearly they were not already on Generators as the math shows they must have been doing something else.
Now all that being said, Squatters (Face Campers) are most common in the Potato Ranks. They become fewer as you advance because it simply is not an effective strategy overall if the Killer wants to earn good BP and/or Pips. More to the point, it is kind of boring. One can only do it for so long before going "Meh." I'm not saying you won't run into Squatters as you advance, I'm just stating you don't run into near as many of them. What I will suggest is that Barbecue & Chili is already an attempt on the part of the DEV (a successful one at that) to encourage Killers not to camp. It reveals to them Survivors who are far away and provides them with extra BP for going and using this information. If it weren't for that Perk, camping and tunneling would be even more common. My point here is that you will NEVER get the results you want by trying to punish Killers. The only thing that has proven effective (and not abused) has been to reward Killers for the behaviors you want.
What I have often suggested is give Killers their own version of Bold (what Survivors earn for doing things inside the Killer's terror radius). A Bold Killer is one that moves away from the hook and throws caution to the wind. Give them bonus BP or move them toward an Emblem for time spent beyond a certain range from the hook. I expect that most Killers will see the value in this because overall camping hooks is niche in value, and free BP or whatever is something few people turn down. I want you to understand that I know what you WANT to happen; I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that to get it you cannot:
- Take away another Player's agency.
- Or punish them for making valid, legitimate choices.
This is a situation where you simply have to make it CRYSTAL clear that the Killer profits, and they will do what you want.
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Killers have this amazing ability called running and basic attack that eventually reaches a survivor especially one that stays around a hook that gives no guarantee of a good loop or any usable terrain to avoid the killer long term. You mention survivors abusing these ideas but the very point behind the ideas is to prevent and discourage killers from doing something that is already being abused by the killers.
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