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Stop Ignoring Nerfs and Buffs on Both Sides - Scott Jund
Comments
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Not interested in listening to a YouTuber telling me what to do.
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Oh, want to hear some valid complaints?
Nurse was able to get a 4k, with 0 perks or addons, while survivors ran 4 brand new parts.
Nurse countered any infinite without counterplay
Nurse countered any pallet without counterplay
Nurse defended ALL her gens, no matter what the 3 gen was, even if it was the biggest map, while she also gained hooks.
This Nurse, was not touched for 4 whole years.
Other than that, there was no counter to Agitation and Iron Grasp as you could reach the basement wherever you were.
No counter to a killer getting 3 kills and facecamping the hatch.
No counter to Wraith other than the MacMillain Coal Tower infinite.
No counter to Billy who could make full 180's with their adjusted mouse sensitivities, making any place that is not a window impossible.
Ofcourse those things had to be nerfed, its pathetically sad how much power some killers had. Yet the only thing you think of is the instamori? I mean, Infinites were the only true bullshit thing, as Brand New Parts were hard to get by, and survivor bloodpoint gain was terrible, let alone that bloodwebs cost a fortune to reset. Where Billy got an ebony mori every single page with killers having a decent amount of bloodpoints for every single match.
Not even talking about the nightmare that was old Dying Light. If you were the obsession, you were being mori'd within the first minute of the match or spend the rest of the match on a hook. The only counterplay to Dying Light was staying on the hook. DC and you'd ######### over your team. Suicide and you'd ######### over your team. Stay on hook, and after 2 minutes, you'd ######### over your team. Get saved from the hook, the killer downs you after bodyblocking you to wait out the borrowed time, and get mori'd to ######### over your team.
Should I talk about how old NOED didnt have any counter too? 2 minutes long you were ######### with the only thing you could do was hide and hope to not be found. Killer just bringing Agitation, Noed and Iron Grasp on a trapper, and you would be dead in the basement(at least No One Left Behind had some value back then to kinda counter NOED, but not really). Or how Unnerving Presence actually had near impossible skillchecks to the point that they nerfed it before they even released Doctor who felt like the embodiment of Unnerving Presence back then? Or that STBFL in combination with Unrelenting actually allowed you to not care whether or not you landed a hit or not because you would regenerate fast enough to hit a survivor twice while essentially being todays STBFL with 7 permanent stacks(and quickly after became the 40% reduction and benefitted heavily from DS as you could down obsessions before they could even reach any potential infinite, which were patched out of the game 3 weeks before?). Or how Tinkerer made any killer back then with charge addons a nightmare to face(talking about instant decloak wraith, instant blink nurse, machine gun huntress and instant chainsaw billy?)
Or were all those balanced and their changes, which werent in the first 2 years, unwarrented?
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ScottJund seems like a nice person but I question his sincerity here as this seems to be made for popularity and Youtube hits. This video would not be created if Huntress, for which he mostly plays, was heavily nerfed nor would it be made if BBQ, a perk he never plays without sudden undergoes a substantial nerf where the killer can't see Auras unless killer does x, y, or z that is largely detrimental to doing his objectives. I've watched him some in the past complain about DS and I know he is happy, as a killer main that he can control the perk and his opponent is unable to do their objective. Like it or not, survivors have no powers of their own, perks are the only power available and is all unique to each character. Nerfing a power so that you can't work on objectives or you lose a perk is wrong and that's all I'm going to say about it. Especially for a perk such as decisive strike as it implies a "1-time" second chance. Killers never lose their power when doing their objective. Looking at DS alone, no perk on the killer side has been nerfed like this perk.
Looking broadly, survivors all across the board have been nerfed every year while killer has mostly been buffed. If the killrates were small and if I didn't see a bloodbath in a majority of matches I was in, then although I am attached to significance of decisive strike granting an anytime break from the killer's grasp to fit Laurie's character in the movies, I would somewhat understand why this perk was substantially ruined. But I do not see this perk winning games, ever, especially not like killer perks. I think it was unfair nerf and there is no reason to spin it any other way with glamorous healing as a community. It's like taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich.
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i agree with him but i gotta laugh at the "i'm not taking this as killer sided or survivor sided" says the killer main as he only chooses to call this out when there's a survivor nerf.
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Of course it does not matter. But saying that Killers got more nerfs is as wrong as it can be.
And it is indeed a problem that people like to forget that both sides get Nerfs and Buffs. A good example would be people complaining about Breakable Walls because "they bring back Infinites". This is a) wrong because those are not Infinites because the Wall is broken in seconds and b) dumb because the reason those walls existed were because the Main Buildings got quite weak after removing actual problematic Loops. So people complain about the walls while forgetting that it was far worse a few months ago.
And I can guarantee that when Freddy gets nerfed (we know about it, he will get nerfed), Killers will call this game survivor-sided, despite DS being nerfed just a few weeks/months before.
While ScottJund is a Killer Main, he cares more for the other side than other streamers who always need to point out that they play both sides.
"Except that I'm not biased- I play a ton of survivor (usually because of the rift)."
So you play Survivor when you have to. :^)
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This.
Tired of the "Scott said this so come looook"
So?
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I'm in this video! I was right below saying it had to be sarcasm lol
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I mean, I'd absolutely say survivors have been nerfed A LOT more. Not because 'oh waa devs only cater to killers' bla bla bla, but because survivors started off SO MUCH INSANELY STRONGER THAN KILLERS.
They've just started off at an extreme imbalance, so the amount of (necessary) nerfs they needed was waaay higher than killers.
I've never felt like the devs just cater to one side, I feel that they're pretty objective in their nerfs/buffs. But people will twist every change to say otherwise and suit their narrative.
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So just to clarify:
The kill rates are high because survivors kill themselves on first hook like 30% of the games, and thats gg 3/4k. Its not that many survivors are bad, its many players are super bad.
I play 80% killer and win 90% of my matches, exceptions being 5% when ps4 frame drops taking away hits in crutial moments and 5% when I just get outplayed.
But I also play survivor, and so many killers are just bad too.
Why do I lose more survivor matches then killer matches? Because people kill themselves.
Without games counted where people suicide in the first 2 minutes, the kill rates would be far lower.
I also agree the game should be balanced around the top players, not tournament squads, but like the top 3% and not the middle.
This would just lead to better matchmaking because people wouldnt just be rank 1 after 10 hours of playing regardless the skill.
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Killer nerfs are more complex. Survivors play all the same, killers have unique powers. Some good perk for one killer, could not synergize with others, like Doc with Tinkerer compared to Bubba with Tinkerer.
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The problem is in theory a perk is not truly seen as op til It is put in the "Worst case" and If It could be copied many times.
Like when Barrowed time could effect a whole team and not just the unhooked and the unhooker.
The truth is I do not think the devs ever intended for the level of fliping crazy to come out of SWF and a bunch of other things.
That and well, people are very picky when It comes to perks and you have a army of "Do this faster" perks...Which,was fine when the game first came out but now unless a Survivor has some kind of "2nd chance" and a new Killer "Expose" or "Stall" perk It is consider a failure and the community will want nothing to do with It.
My only problem is someone can state that is clearly the problem you'll be ignored. But,If you are a youtuber your word magically becomes gospel.
It does not take rocket science to figure out where some of the problems are
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Exactly what I've been saying for months
Like, what does his girl look like? Is she even bad? Does he even have a girl?
How much money he got? Is he broke? Where his family from? Where does he buy his jeans, off the clearance rack at Sears? Does Sears even exist anymore?
If he can't even answer all that, then I can't be bothered to care about his "little" youtube channel 🙄....
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Just to play devil's advocate, for what reason in your opinion would it be a mistake to balance around the too players in this game? I have an idea myself (but also a soft work around) but maybe your idea is different?
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Nobody has said that.
You, on the other hand, have tried to twist words to fit your narrative and it doesn't look good for your argument.
Here's the actual definition of nerf,
verb INFORMAL•US
- To cause to be weak or ineffective.
Survivors have received way more nerfs than Killers simply because they started out on a higher level.
Of course, if you still don't believe me, I can compile a list of Killer nerfs vs Survivor nerfs :)
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Top levels of play pretty much revolves around extremely coordinated swfs and pretty much only very good nurse and spirit players.
The way those games are played are completely different from a normal game.It means solely focusing on gens,running META perks all the time,leaving teammates behind,camping/slugging/tunneling etc. is MUCH more prevalent,which is simply not enjoyable for the majority of the community.
Other problems:
-We would need a good MMR system (I'm gonna be very surprised if the one we'll get at SOME point will work properly)
-Voice communication would have to be forced
-Map reworks need to be finished
-Power gap between killers is just way too big.How would you ever close it between killers like Nurse and Trapper?
-Map RNG needs to be toned down (sometimes you get maps with a lot of pallets and good setups and sometimes it's just deadzone after deadzone)
I'm sure there are some other problems that i forgot but that's about it i think
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I love watching arguments on the forums. It's like watching baboons throw feces at each other. Very entertaining.
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Scott is one of two content creators that actually look at both sides equally and isn't a hypocrite. The other would be Tru3. Some smaller content creators like Graenz aren't bad either. I would say Otz, as he isn't a hypocrite, but he is a killer main.
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I see, and I agree these are very good points.
That is a great list of reasons the game can't function under it's current form of balance, imo.
Yes there is a massive gap between the likes of Trapper and Nurse.... But that design logic was intentional on the part of the devs. They've even gone as far as saying some killers aren't intended to be "high tier" but balanced around fun... Which in itself doesn't seem to have been a very consistent design philosophy, since we'd later se balance changes that stood in the face of that.
I the game changing publishers, and not keeping the focus are literally the only things preventing this game going one way or another. After all, look at nurse now compared to release nurse. Do those balances seem to come from the same mind? I don't imagine so.
This game COULD be balanced for top players. There are plenty of assymetrical games that are balanced, with branching metas much greater than DBD. The only thing I believe holds it back is the fact it would take a dramatic shift in focus from what the devs are actually and already doing to achieve. For one thing, killer releases would have to slow down dramatically, and we'd need to see overall more game health/balance related patches. Another is their would need to be a focus on reducing things that make the gameplay too dynamic aka getting rid of many of the ring components.
The irony seems to be this is kind of already some steps they have started taking. They obviously at some point, had hoped to make this game more competitive, even attempted to turn it E-sports. All they would need to do is maintain that focus on a much sharper scale and slow down with the elements that, sure, bring more flair and fun to the game, such as cosmetics and characters, but would free them to focus on solutions to the band aids and how to build more symmetrical design so both sides don't feel like they have as many hopeless spots.
But that may not even be their focus at this point, and money-wise, well E-sports aren't all the moneymakers LoL and overwatch are/were. Most competitive games live and die by the community that supports them, and the issue with DBD is it has a revolving door of players right now because it gets to frustrating at the higher levels of play. Shifting to a hyper competitive focus definitely doesn't carry with it the monetary incentive that DLC's do, so I don't expect this game to suddenly shift gears like that.
But would it be possible? I think so.
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I kind of agree, but I feel at the same time, the game should be balanced towards GOOD players, which aren't the casual players of this game. Balancing around higher levels, but not the highest levels, will give those casual players more of a challenge and force them to get better at this game, which is the norm with the majority of games, so why make it different here? Balancing a game around casual players is going to allow them to stay at a very low skill level for no reason. That's not how the game HAS to be balanced, it's just allowing people to be really lazy with their skill in the game because the game allows it. People need to adapt, we don't need to be building around them. That's going to lead to a very boring game (which it already can be honestly, a lot of players in this game are complete garbage, especially at high rank) for anyone who ACTUALLY wants to be good at it.
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Definetely.
Balancing around the good players is the aim,just not the top level.
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I'd throw PainReliever in the same category as Otz, but as a Survivor Main.
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Id also throw TydeTyme in there but he took a long break from DBD.
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"X has been nerfed more times than Y !!!!"
Completely irrelevant. The game either gets to a more balanced state or less balanced. Something OP becomes more OP or less OP or balanced.
Imagine a perk came out that lets you apply Exposed to all survivors for 200 seconds after you kick a gen. Stupidly broken right? Now imagine they nerf it 15 times, each time reducing the time of exposure. Now it lasts only 45 seconds.
Why would you cry if it gets nerfed again? IT'S STILL BROKEN. It doesn't matter that it was nerfed 15 times, all that matters is the balance NOW
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Ooga booga youtuber say opinion, me go to front page.
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Yes, because it is insanely easy and braindead.
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Your own definition doesn’t support your argument XD. Far from being “weak and ineffective “, survivors are still the power role. Try again.
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Morgan Freeman says it all
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Calling Survivor "insanely easy and braindead". Only playing Survivor when forced to do. Meanwhile saying that you are not biased.
Does not really add up.
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You would be surprised how many 1000+ hours don't know how the game works mechanics wise.
Look at how many people think thanataphobia got nerfed.
Or people who think 5% movement speed isn't a big deal
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That is still a nerf. Even if it fixed gameplay. What point are you trying to make? You're stepping on your toes lol.
Scott I know you think tournaments are laughable currently but in theory if balance got so good and there was equal opportunity to outplay the opponent throughout the match and rng was fully culled. Would it not be a great esport title? I know with current perks and some killer releases seems impossible to achieve but would it be possible?
How good can this game possibly get to balance what would have to happen?
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Lol
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One of the smartest dbd players out there, suprised they haven't made him a community manager yet. Or a fog whisperer, then again Bhvr doens't like players who can think for themself, Or speak the truth. They like them dumb and casual, it produces alot of milk.
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Yeah, but it could be the same case as Ussylis. He uploads mainly survivor videos but might play a lot of killer in his off time. He also uploads the gameplay critique videos where he does give great tips to the people playing killer.
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The best way to explain this is that's due to the power gap.
Work with me here but imagine a 4 meter long line and a 4 Centimeter long line. These lines represent the power of an individual role. Survivor as the 4 Meter line and Killer as the 4 Centimeter line. When you compare these lines you will obviously notice a substantial gap in terms of power here (note that I'm not saying the discrepancy in power here is that big this is just a metaphor the length don't matter or the gap doesn't matter either so long as there is a gap because there IS a gap.)
Now take nerfs as cutting segments off the lines, their power is lessened. if you take a nerf to each line that is proportionally equal to each line, 1 meter for survivors and one centimeter for killers. Who was more effected? you could argue that since they proportional received the same amount of nerf that its equal but its not. the nerf effectively does nothing for the survivors because the gap is still the same, their line is still significantly longer than the killers. For the killers though, even if they received the same amount of nerf they are hit harder because they already had so little to work with in comparison. This is why you can take chunks outs of the Survivors line and it ultimately wont effect them till the killers line grows even with them. when that happens then the killers nerfs wont matter but the survivor ones will. This game is a 4v1 its hard to make it were its ultimately even.
The game Sniper Vs Spy took years to make the game perfectly balanced between the roles, and that's just a 1v1 asymmetrical game. This is why Killer nerfs have been more substantial if you look at the game as a whole. yes in a vacuum the ways survivors have been changed and nerfed over the years has been extreme but in comparison to the power gap its not been as significant as killer nerfs have been. Now I will absolutely agree that the game is in one of its most balanced states that it ever has been but it still needs work and in my opinion it needs more work towards killers.
thanks for coming to my TED Talk
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I have played more than enough to know how to loop and waste time better than 90% of the community. I also said that the rift has made me play survivor more, not that I never play outside of it. I find killer more enjoyable because it is more skill based. Survivor is 95% knowing routing and tiles (memory, not skill). Killer has to have game sense, movement, and mechanical skill (blinks, shooting, etc....). In fact, it’s straight up obvious that killer is much harder than survivor.
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The point is that people act like infinites being taken out is some sort of major balancing decision. Pretty much all fighting games launch with certain characters having 100% damage combos that are patched out almost immediately. No reasonable person considers that a “nerf”. Anyways, nitpicking the wording shows that no one on this forum can counter my main point: most people are bad, and balancing for good players would not make a difference in how well low level players perform.
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He’s not telling anyone what to do though?
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But yet you’re here on the thread commenting about it? If you’re so “tired” of it then why take the time out of your day to come here and make a comment about it?
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This kid have a few points there. It's better for us who play both roles and get to be both angry and happy about the same buff/nerf.
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To be honest, I'd call it a "good" nerf. It's still a nerf, but it's necessary and adds value to the experience of the game.
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Oh damn is that the real Scott?
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The fact you think I still play Huntress means you haven't watched me in literally over a year. Come on dude its really not fair to assume things about me when you don't even watch me.
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Ok well firstly you say one thing and you always sound so sure of yourself and so arrogant and then later you end up complaining about the opposite.
I specifically remember you applauding DS rework and saying "just don't tunnel" "just don't tunnel" and then obviously at a later point you're now ridiculing such a thing "oh guess I shouldn't have tunneled". You also at one point bragged in one of your videos about how killers was sooo easy and then at another point when you're sweating with killers in a stream talking about how weak they are.
I get you can change your mind that's fine everyone makes predictions, the reason I single you out is because of the way you put those original opinions across. You come across as very arrogant and self-assured, perhaps that's just your personality or the way you speak but that's how it comes across and it's annoying.
Secondly you do nothing but moan about Spirit non-stop these days. You put out a nurse video and then spend 5 minutes moaning about Spirit. Give it a rest already.
I disagree she's as skillless as you make out (another point where you seem arrogant and hyperbolic). You can't tell me you've never come across teams that have "genrushed" you and made your Spirit feel less than all-powerful?
Anyway even if she's not as highskill as other killers, what do you consider high skill? m1 killers? people like wraith? trapper? myers? I'll agree such killers take more skill to beat good teams with than Spirit but what do survivors do against these killers? they run in a circle around a pallet and press space bar to drop it, they run to another, run in a circle then press space to drop it, repeat for 5 gens. My point is that the killers that end up taking more skill actually take less for survivor and survivor against m1 killers takes no skill. If you loop an m1 killer for 5 gens it says more about the killer than you since they were dumb enough to commit to a chase for that long. Half the pallets in the game don't even have any real mindgame.
I guess my point is why is spirit always singled out like she takes no skill but the rest of the game is e-sports level? looping m1 killers takes very little skill and if your team is on gens and you play it safe you can pretty much win the game with very little skill required. This is the game where up until recently you could just throw on iri heads, noed, ruin, ebony mori and just be granted the easiest game ever. As survivors you can still 4 man and genrush to victory with teamwork and specific builds. Basically my point is DBD isn't a very high skilled game in the first place and I understand wanting to make it more skillful but you seem to attack Spirit specifically and alone and I don't think that's fair. With how other killers are in a chase, where you need significantly more skill than the survivor teams to win, why wouldn't people want to use killers that are easier? why sweat with wraith when you can have a more relaxed and easier time with freddy or spirit? its like why would survivors run trash perks when they can just stack all the second chances? people aren't going to sweat out of some sense of pride.
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My point was, if it was something you enjoyed in the game and it was ruined, then you would have a different attitude and probably not play either. Huntress has never been nerfed at all so I used her as an example, and she seems to have way more unfair advantages with hitboxes and server issues than 1-time DS that killer can almost completely playaround to begin with. The fact devs would even make heavily nerfing DS a priority, a perk that most use as a comfort zone against tunnelers, over even fixing unfair hitboxes is bad in itself.
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I really wouldn't call this a "heavy nerf." If you really want to maintain you 60 seconds of invulnerability you can still do it, and if you choose to lose it, you obviously aren't being tunneled anymore.
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If you do anything you lose it and the killer can easily return to the vicinity, see the same person, and chase them down. That's still the definition of tunneling. I get the killer is supposed to be a killer, I really do, but if you have a decisive strike, where you are supposed to literally have something in your hand to stab the killer to break free, it is unimaginable to lose it for simply doing an action and be penalized for it.
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No, that is just not at all tunneling. At that point, its literally just the killer trying to stop you from making him lose. If you are sitting on a generator you are not being tunneled, even if you were the last one hooked. There's no room for discussion there.
Additionally, maybe consider I don't know, waiting 10 seconds to see if the killer is coming back or not. You'll be fine not doing a gen for 10 seconds.
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It is way hard enough to get the gens done as it is. A survivor hiding in fear of the killer coming back is setting it up to be even easier for the killer.
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I didn't say hide from the killer I said be wary for 10 damn seconds. If the killer is coming back, run the other direction instead of smashing your face on a generator immediately. I promise there are gens further away as well.
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I'm in agreeance for you. If you don't balance something that is abusable by its best players. You lose integrity in the competition.
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