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Second Hook Stage Rework & Anti-Camping System Concepts
WARNING : this post summarize the big lines of the concepts, all details are taken in count in the full version video.
Watch it here with extra bonuses : https://youtu.be/KQc6bSBOQi0
Comments
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So what happens if the killer has hooked 2 survivors exactly 20m apart from each other so that the diameters of each circle together is now 80m or 4/5 of the map.
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So if you know that there's a survivor hiding nearby you cannot look for them? Nah, pass
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The timer pause was tested twice on the PTB and survivors abused it to hell and back by looping the killer near the hook or forcing the killer into a situation were they couldn't leave the hook without giving a free unhook.
Remember SURVIVORS ARE THE REASON WHY NO ANTI CAMP EXISTS!
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I'd be okay with making the struggle phase less reliant on spamming a key over and over, but the anti-camp changes there feel a bit rough.
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Although you've outlined some ways to stop the abuse of this system by resuming the hook stage if in a chase and being able to grab survivors near a hook, it just feels awkward and there's bound to be a way to abuse it.
For example from the top of my head, what if a nurse continually blinks in and out of the radius? She can hold her blink just outside of the radius, if someone comes close to the 2m mark of the hook, she blinks in and goes for the grab. If they run, she blinks out again and rinse and repeat. It may well be impossible to save the survivor without trading.
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Just make it so that theres a suicide option for the struggle state. I don't care about feeling as if I'm fighting the entity in real life.
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The struggle state is definitely a change I could see happening. Anything other than button-mashing is an improvement, I feel. I do think the mechanic is a bit overly-complicated, though, but overall it has my vote!
The anti-camp, though... not so much. Too much potential to abuse it, too much punishment for killers. I think some of the other posters here have expressed my worries with the system better than I can at the moment.
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All is said here guys, I couldn't review every aspect of balancing the concepts in a single picture. Everything is detailed in the video, I've taken all aspect of balancing it here. For instance :
You didn't read the last lines of the picture saying that you won't stop the Entity if you are chasing in the radius, so you can totally chase this hiding survivor if you know he's here, 20s is a lot to succeed in that, and this is still a concept, the purpose is to test it to be allow to balance it correctly.
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Also said in the video, there will obviously be some way to abuse it for some Killers, this is why a concept need to be tested then balance before release. It may not stop all aspect of the camping, but will prevent the most problematic ones being any Killer allowed to stand near the Survivor and simply deleting his right to play at all. The concept is not there to punish Killers, I also detail this part in the video.
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So what do you propose if there's a survivor within 20 meters of the hook, I'm not allowed to chase because I'll get punished? You don't see the potential for abuse by other survivors? It's a firm no from me
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The probability for this kind of situation to happen is way too low to be representative. This should be tested to balance the concept around, but to happen, this situation would imply that :
- you get the time as the Killer to hook a Survivor, find another one, grab him/put him on dying state and hook him on a Hook that has spawn exactly at 40m from the other Hook you used
- during all this time, no other Survivor went to save the other one
- while both Survivors are hooked, you don't manage to find the others (remember that you don't stop the Entity if you are in a chase)
- Plus : you can still stand between the Hooks by going from a zone to another, the timer is reset each time so you can move each 5 seconds to not get any penalty
Basically what you're talking about is a non problem in my opinion.
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Said in the video, written in the picture : you don't stop the Entity if you are chasing in the radius of the Hook, if you know there's a Survivor here and you find him you don't get punished for staying in the zone. Please take all I say in count guys.
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It happens more often than you'd think. Bad saves, slugging, dumb body blocking, looping near the hooked survivor so 2 survivors end up on hooks and a few other dumb things I've seen in solo queue. Depending on hook spawns RNG it could be close to 20m apart.
Does this mean the killer can see the different radius or do they need to guess? Same with time?
Post edited by Terro on0 -
20 seconds to find and start a chase with a survivor is rough. The countdown starts the instant the killer enters within the radius of the hooked survivor. "A Chase is initiated whenever a Survivor starts sprinting within 12 metres of the Killer and has direct Line of Sight." What happens if a survivor knows this and does their best to prolong the timer as long as possible? Then they knowingly just take a hit and the killer gets teleported far away. Remember that the diameter of the circle is still 40m that's still about 2/5 of a map to try to search through with the gens there in 20 seconds. Forget 5 seconds. Of course the killer can leave and enter the circle to reset the time but it also wastes their time.
Also, what happens once the killer downs the survivor? Does carrying a survivor not eliminate things?
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20 seconds is not a lot if you want to break some pallets or kick a gen and find a hiding survivor
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The skillcheck thing is amazing, but anti-camp isn't necessary, especially when done like this.
I can't count the times I've chased a Survivor around the hook because they ran at it just as I was leaving, and therefore no one else could get the save.
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I don't like anything about this.
Skill checks are ass, if it's anything like a PH cage it's just obnoxious.
The anti camp is too punishing on the killer.
Hook grabs should honestly be removed or only made possible on injured survivors IMO. If the survivor is healthy you can just down them by 2 hitting twice instead, this makes trading always possible against killers that cant 1 shot you. This is probably the best anti camp they can possibly add to the game, since the ability to go for guaranteed trades makes camping not viable way to get kills since the survivors can trade before the person on hook dies.
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I'll do my best to answer your two comments in one. I mention it only in the video, the Killer is not supposed to see the Hook zones once activated but hear sound getting louder and louder so he has an idea of what time he has to still be there. Every timer are reset when interrupted, which means if he goes out of a zone then go in, he has 5 seconds again before the Entity stops ascending, then again 15s before being teleported. Chasing a Survivor in the radius and grabbing/carrying one has no effect on the Hook stage as well. Don't know if you saw it too but with this system you could also instantly grab the Survivor if he stands in front of the Hook (2 meters max) to prevent Survivors abusing it too. After all that, I can only say there's obviously some things you are not supposed to be in control of everytime, if you can't find a Survivor near the Hook in 20s in the game you usually leave anyway, I've made my best to make the system harmless to the Killers but Killers have to also understand that they have nothing to gain by standing there.
I'll agree with you on your second thought, this is a concept so it will obviously need tests to balance it and bring the best solution, so we may have to change some numbers, reducing the radius of the zone or increasing the timers are from many options to improve it.
Know that the second part of the Anti-Camping System (teleportation after 15s) is only there to make it "troll-proof", some players could choose to still camp despite blocking the Entity's progression, which would totally go against the purpose of the system : allowing every player to have a fair chance to play the game. Still if it is considered too heavy in consequences for Killers, I could totally see the 15s timer being enhanced, even 1 min could be okay but as I said it needs to be tested.
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I'm okay with that, but I'll ask you if you think the "space-bar button mashing" is better in term of gameplay ?
I can only ask you if you saw the video I've made about it ? I summarized the most important line of the concepts here, but the video contains every details I've come up with to make it balance for both sides and not punish Killers : timers reset and Entity acts normally if the Killer is chasing in the radius or carry a Survivor, numbers we can change in the purpose of balancing it, etc...
On the contrary, I think Hooks grabs are very necessary. It prevents Survivors to rush Hooks or punish them effectively if they try, it is severe in consequence for the Survivor side and needs to be so they stop going blindly for the save and rewards the Killer for being able to stop them.
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That's why my concept added the fact that "Chasing a Survivor in the radius of the Hook doesn't stop the timer" and "the Survivors could be grabbed if they are in a radius of 2 meters around the Hook even if they are not in the process of unhooking" (which doesn't stop the timer as well). Even in the current game if you don't find a Survivor around the hooked one in 20s you usually leave, so it doesn't change anything for you, and if the Survivor get unhooked after you travel 20m, you come back, follow the scratches, hunt, down them, classic game as intended.
Basically you are saying that my concept solved the problems they didn't think about on PTB while testing the timer pause. So thank you, you should check the video I've made for every details about to make the Survivors not abusing the system ;)
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Camping is a part of the game just deal with it. Get out of low ranks and you will soon forget that camping even exists.
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The thing is that it's not just 20 seconds of searching. You add in the walking time with the search time and then the killer needs to force a chase initiation. Add in other things like pallets, kicking gens and other objectives and the time restriction gets in the way of gameplay. Increasing it however makes things a bit too lenient. Then there's the fact that just pausing the time a survivor is on the hook is torture (not in a good entity way). Sitting there bored on a hook is kinda meh and the 5 second pause is going to constantly be hit whether the killer means to or not.
A 2m grab around the hook takes the survivor a second to leave. Although, in basement and certain maps it might just be crazy. How do things work with verticality? Can the killer grab a survivor if it's above a hook? Same thing with how the hooks effect killer. Lets say it's a more verticle map like pyramid heads (the school place. I forgot the name already) and the killer is on the top floor.
Personally, I think that if the devs wanted to get stop camping they should get rid of it completely. The killer can hook the survivor. They get pulled by the entity and the other survivors can respawn the survivor by doing something. Yes it'll remove aspects of the game like the thrill of saving a survivor and wondering if the killer will be back or clutch saves but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Nope. There are a dozen ways to abuse this on the Survivor side.
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Apologies I misread
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No matter the game, allowing players to prevent others to play completely is not okay, so no, players must not deal with it. Saying you must get out of low ranks to not see campers anymore is very selfish as it translates how you don't care of the game health for the entire community, and still you are deeply wrong : I've been a red rank Survivor for a time and I still ran into campers if not facecampers. It is not a question of rank but of what want to do the player at the time. Preserving it is allowing players with bad skill/behaviour to continu as they do and still get ranks while others see their time wasted.
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Please mention them to me. But don't you dare give me points I've already anticipated in the full concept ;)
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Be careful what you wish for; I'm not known for being brief. When I'm off work later I will answer you thoroughly.
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All the answers are in the video guys ===> https://youtu.be/KQc6bSBOQi0 <===
I cannot say this enough but you can't put all the details in one picture, that's why I did the video, literally all the points you mentionned are listed in it. You should watch it. You want to watch it. Go watch it. Please :)
I'll give you something for the objectives I didn't talk about : we could indeed consider something like when the Killer is not just waiting in the zone, if he breaks a pallet or a gen, or uses his power to place something for instance, the timer is reset as well, he then got more time for himself to plan his next move and search the area for a bit. That might be a point relevant enough to be added in the final result !
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What I suggest here is a concept. Feedback to determine if it could be good and what should be modified to make it the best way is what I want. But I see with the comments I got that showing only a picture was not a so great idea : I wanted people to get just a global idea of what my concepts offers so they could go see the video I've made about it and get the full version with all the details taken in count. If my entire concept was in this picture, then yeah it would be obviously completely useless and would broke the game more than anything.
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I will, per your request, watch the video first before I take out the rhetorical sledgehammer and critique you on the little bit you posted here. However, this had better not just be an attempt to manipulate us into getting hits on your channel. That would annoy me. I'll go into your video with an open mind, but I'm going to be blunt about the fact that I do not believe that any ham-handed mechanics that constrain Player agency, i.e. choice are good for the game. If I wanted to play against Bots, I'd play against Bots in another game. Killers are Players too, and making them wear what amounts to a complicated corset to prevent them from making their own choices goes against the very nature of this game.
Would we also be coming up with complicated, penalizing things to prevent Survivors from camping Generators? I'm not joking here. If you stay within 20' Meters of a Generator you are driven off of will it start to regress if you stay within that range for (5) seconds, and teleport you to the other side of the map if you stay too close for too long? I'm sure that we could mirror your intent for Survivors to and set both roles up with extremely complex rules which take away all agency whatsoever. The games would therefore always be a minimum length.
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I'm 100% confident here, you do you and if I couldn't change your mind about it that's okay, I can only hope my work will be good enough for you to consider it. This is an opinion, and I can see why you think that, as some games are better left in a "sandbox" state if you allow me to say so, but that's definitely not where Dead by Daylight stands to me. There's way too much matters to let players from both sides to do freely everything they want, as it is an asymetrical game. Killers can abuse this to trap Survivor players, so do Survivors when they delay the end game with the doors and other stuff, for now I focused on this problem and will work on the others another time. This concept is not the last one I intend to work on, and all should work together in the end.
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