Dying Light should have no survivor boost.

The obsession not being affected by the negatives and having a massive heal is the downside. You dont have a reason to chase the obsession at all with dying light otherwise. Essentially, the bonus the obsession gains is your reason to still down and hook the obsession.

The only thing that needs changing is streamlining Dying Light to be similar to STBFL. AKA, if the obsession is dead, the stacks are permanent.

It is far from the strongest untill it has 6 stacks. And no, thats false.

Pop has a downside: you either go into chase, or you use the perk. You can lose Pop. You dont lose stacks on dying light(ofcourse indicating that all Dying Light need is perma stacks once the obsession dies).

Sloppy has a downside: it gives survivors a reason to not heal and instead work on gens. Healing tends to slow down games to a point where you can make it, Sloppy gives survivors a reason to not heal, speeding up the game(especially if people run Resillience). Sure, people can be instadowned, but there are many killers who already have access to an instadown. Let alone that people would have permanent access to Dead Hard.

"Dying Light offers a huge slowdown if the survivors accomplish absolutely nothing. If they're playing well they should have multiple gens done by the time you actually gain a lot of stacks. Meaning you were already going to win anyway."

This is completely false. Dying Light offers a huge slowdown if you're playing well. Survivor's barely have any impact on it. Once you get your first hook, you should quickly gain your second one. If you dont, you're not using Dying Light well. I mean, thats like waiting for survivors to work on totems before you start patrolling generators, making terrible use of Ruin. If both are playing well, you should have 4-5 hooks before the survivors finish 3 gens. Which Dying Light even adds onto as it slows down people the more you hook. So no, you were not going to win anyway, Dying Light gave you that slight benefit allowing you to win games that would have otherwise been a loss. Are there other perks being more effective at doing so? Sure, but using the same build over and over again because they are the most effective perks is boring unless you play competative.

"This is even more underwhelming when you realize the obsession with the boost is also IMMUNE to the perk entirely. That 33% never decreases. They never lose THEIR gen speed. The obsession can afford to heal all game. Dual healing with that boost is like healing at light speed."

But the obsession is not immune to chases, the obsession is not immune to being hooked, the obsession is not immune to being hit, the obsession is not immune to being injured. If you use Dying Light effectively, all the obsession is doing, is healing teammates, because he/she is the only person capable of healing them as the rest is slowed down. If everyone is fully healed, or if people run Resillience, only then would the obsession focus gens purely. Which is why Dying Light is often matched up with Thana, to give people even more reason to heal up(Legion is pretty much the reason Thana's healing aspect was nerfed, which is a shame, so now people are practically forced to run anything based around Mangled too). And no, dual healing with dying light is actually beneficial for the killer, because one is decreased while the other one is increased. Negative effects are multiplicative, positive effects are additive. They might heal at light speeds early on, which is why you're supposed to scare away the obsession while you get a free second stack. Besides, once again: healing is not doing gens. At around 4 stacks(which is easy to get), the only survivor being able to effectively do gens is the obsession, at which point you need to keep the obsession busy with either healing, being downed, or the first time you actually hook the obsession. Dying Light has a different playstyle, that doesnt make it weak. That's like saying T1 Myers is weak because he can be looped around a pallet for 2 minutes before being forced to break that pallet, untill T1 Myers absolutely destroyed you(springwood used to be T1 Myer's worst map, due to the amount of safe loops, its now T1 Myers heaven). Different playstyles do not equal weakness. Sure, they might not be viable for tournaments. But guess what? DBD isnt a tournament.

"I'd even rather see Dying Light give a certain penalty to healing and repairing for a LIMITED duration of time after each hook."

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand this is the part where you show that you have no clue how to use Dying Light. We're done here.

So, essentially, your argument is that because its not tournament viable makes it a bad perk. If we were to make all perks tournament viable, then there need to be a lot more pallets introduced into the game.

And as for pop:

1. you need to hook a survivor
2. you need to ignore any nearby survivor or chase if you want the value to kick a gen
3. that generator you kicked better has more than 25% done, otherwise you lose value.

While dying light allows you to just do what you normally would anyway and slow down the game by doing so. The only downside being that if the obsession dies, you lose all the stacks. Which was done on purpose at the time, since, you know, obsession dying and slowing everyone down 35% would leave a sour taste, but at least in this case, it would happen gradually.

As for Sloppy, its nice that survivors can be instadowned, sure, but a lot of experienced survivors get more value while injured. Since you can be downed in one hit, you're a bigger target for the killer than someone who cant, regardless if the healthy survivor would go down in 20 seconds and you can last 50 seconds per health state. Let alone that perks like Resilience and Spinechill are used quite commonly on people who never heal anyway. It might not feel like it doesnt have a downside, but objective comparison will show that Sloppy does have a downside.

Especially considering we're talking sweat squads here.

I made the assumption based on the arguments you brought. Which is a fair assesment.

And yes, hooking a survivor is a downside as it is a requirement for activation, the reason why I didnt add it on dying light, is because my point was that the only thing dying light needed to change was to keep stacks when the obsession dies as that downside makes the perk terrible.

And that completely depends on the survivors. If they are top tier survivors, no, you wont save time at all as any distance made increases the chase exponentially. Which was your argument against Dying Light anyway, right?

"If being injured was such an advantage to survivors you would see No Mither squads. You don't."

Starting off injured and being injured are 2 seperate things. If we're going to be exact, everyone starts out healthy, then gets injured and wont heal untill they are on dead hook. So yes, being injured brings a massive advantage during the match to a point that healing isnt worth it unless you're about to be removed from the match. That doesnt mean you want to start out injured, as being healthy does have an extra advantage where No Mither doesnt really add much. The thing is that healing up isnt worth it and perks make it even less worth it(especially if the killer has access to instadowns). That is why REMAINING injured is such an advantage, because healing up takes up more time than pressuring gens. And Sloppy simply gives survivors more reasons to REMAIN injured instead of healing up.

No, I am not arguing that Dying Light is better than Pop, I am simply saying that its a good perk, especially on hit and run killers, since it slows down the game overall. The only person capable of healing teammates is the obsession, add Sloppy and/or Thana to it and 3 survivors are going to be incapable of doing gens as they need to heal up, but they cant heal up fast enough without the obsession. As long as the obsession spends time healing their teammates, they are not working on gens. Removing the healing speed from the obsession would make this perk powerful to work on its own, sure, but the synergy it would have with Sloppy and Thana, especially on killers with access to slowdown addons and powers(Freddy, Pig, Ruin) would simply make the perk too powerful. THAT is why Dying Light needs a downside. In fact, Dying Light and Freddy's addons is the reason why Thanatophobia got nerfed of the healing debuff in the first place. Because even with the massive healing buff, it was too much slowdown where any killer could win games through the snowballing power from Dying Light.

Essentially, my only crux with Dying Light is that you do not want to kill the obsession at all, giving 1 survivor essentially immunity. At some point, you want the obsession dead while still keeping the debuff from Dying Light. Just like you would want the obsession dead once you gain 8 stacks on STBFL.

Yes, but that penalty matters earlier in the game, when Dying Light hits a 12% decrease. Normally, 4 hooks dont mean #########, but in this case it could turn a won game into a lost one for survivors.

"Yes, it gives you a strong snowball, but only after you are already winning the game, so you can win even harder."

Nope, as long as the obsession is alive, they have a shot at winning, before that, you have 3 survivors who can still win a game but with every hook decrease their chances on winning. At about 18% with 2+ gens left is where I would agree that you already win a winning game, especially since 1 survivor is about to die anyway. However, up untill that time, Dying Light is actively slowing down healing and gen speeds for 3 survivors. Dying Light isnt a perk that is meant to work for all killers, just as Sloppy isnt meant to work for all killers. Dying Light is meant for hit and run games where survivors get injured fast but not necessarily go down, the same type of games where Thana works well at. Which is why Thana and Dying Light tend to be ran together in the first place.

"it starts to be effective around 6 stacks" I disagree, at 6 stacks, it should turn a potential loss into a win. Before that, it does have quite an effect, not amazing, sure, which is why you use other perks and/or addons for synergy.

"but only if you still have 3 generators remeining and they won't pop in a second" Again, disagree. If you have 2 gens left, 6 stacks will turn the game. Add in 1 more stack and you can essentially have a perma 3-gen. The only downside being that you cannot kill the obsession at this point. Which is why my argument is that the only thing that needs to change is to keep the stacks when the obsession dies. The healing buff doesnt mean ######### if there is no obession left.

"it gives you no value when match is a tie or you are losing" This is only true assuming a tournament setting/facing sweat squad. The game does not need to be balanced around the 0.1% of players.

"Meanwhile it gives obsession a free botany knowledge, which in the end it makes it as good as no mither" No Mither is actually a lot better than you think tho, especially if you have perks that remove scratchmarks. I'd probably compare it more tho Self-Care. Self-Care is worse than No Mither. You're not going to need Self-Care unless your team is losing, and in that scenario Self-Care can turn a loss into a win. I can think of plenty games where if I had Dying Light instead of other perks, I would be winning. Sure, Pop can be nice in most scenario's too, but Pop requires you to walk to a specific location on the map. People here are heavily underestimating the power of damage over time. New Ruin has more potential than old Ruin because old Ruin was too powerful to keep standing, meaning its over time effect would never remain longer than 1 minute. While current ruin might not be powerful enough to seek out, even though you absolutely cannot keep it standing. You can easily keep up a 4-gen with Ruin, where you cannot do so with Pop. Again, the big issue here is that you lose the stacks when killing the obsession. The healing bonus helps you out more than it does the obsession.

Dying Light is almost perfect as it is now and fills in a niche, it does not need to be buffed by removing the healing bonus on the obsession unless you want to turn it into a hex perk. At best, the healing bonus would need a slight nerf since Thana has been nerfed.

"12 seconds" per gen*

Works for 3 people if you hook the obsession. Seems like your issue with the perk is that you actually ignore the obsession. Nowhere in the perk does it state that you should ignore the obsession.

"unless you are chasing the obsession and the rest is doing their stuff... at which point you are probably going to loose." How? 3 survivors who are slowed down and the only survivor who isnt is about to be hooked. How are you losing in this scenario? Perhaps when you have 0 stacks. Which is arguably the only time you should actively ignore the obsession.

"No, it is because you stack effects from both perks... and its still more of a memish build because you don't want to run dying light on anti healing build..." Thana isnt anti-healing tho. Thana is pro-healing. Dying Light is the anti-healing perk here. Forcing the obsession to be the only one who actually can heal others, meaning the only way to powerheal is to heal together with the obsession. That means 3 survivors are not doing gens. 3 survivors not doing gens simply means you're chasing with free gen pressure, especially when everyone is injured. That's essentially 35 seconds of you not having to care on gens while you simply gain another Dying Light stack, then hit and run again. It's pretty much the exact same reason why T1 Myers is powerful. You play differently to what survivors are used to.

"It's like 15 additional seconds per gen... its sligthly more than a minute if you are at five gens... at 6 hooks, pop will give you 2 times as much, while allowing you to protect important gens. It's just pathethic that in the middle of the match it is and effect of half of pop, if there are 5 gens." I've had many cases where Pop didnt help me as much since survivors can pretend to care about a specific gen, besides, you're assuming generators never regress. Essentially, it's a reverse Ruin. Regression rates hurt much more because gen progression takes longer. Those 25 seconds per gen(I did mention Thana) means you need to fix 120% of a normal gen

"iM DONE WITH YOU, SUCH HERECY CANNOT GO UNPUNISHED" Then bring an actual argument that holds value. No Mither only sucks because it starts you out injured from the beginning. Self care sucks in 99% of the cases. Which is why Self care compares better to Dying Light.

"Not only you are saying that no mither is a decent perk, but you also are saying that self care can turn lost game into a win... like what? To use self care you need a time of half of a gen, while being way more vurnerable. Like, yeah, it will work if you are the only person standing and everyone else is hooked... the problem is still... unless you started selfcaring way earlier, in which case perks that could help you preventing others getting down would be much better... and still, why would you run selfcare instead of using a medkit."

So basically: there is 1 person on a hook, no survivors are nearby and you have Borrowed Time. There is not enough time to look for teammates, there is not enough time to look for a chest and hope for a medkit. Selfcare can turn a lost game into a win.

And yes, No Mither is a decent perk. Good killers focus more on blood than scratchmarks because blood doesnt lie. Secondary, good killers focus more on injured noises than scratchmarks too. With No Mither, all they really have is scratchmarks. Add a perk that removes scratchmarks and you can literally vanish. Yes, No Mither is a decent perk. Is it meta? No, obviously not. But it is heavily underrated for what it can do. Let alone that you can dedicate perks that work around the injured state too. Thinking No Mither is trash, to me, is admitting you're simply not good enough to use it in your favor, especially now that Fixated got buffed. You can literally blind a killer and walk away, and from the killer's perspective, you disappear. Dont even get me started on how well it works on Ace. And as for why not use a medkit, why not both? Selfcare does increase the length you can use a medkit for and guarantees you can heal yourself regardless of your teammates. Best of both worlds. Selfcare is more like Unbreakable than it is like Borrowed Time. Borrowed Time is generally more practical, while Unbreakable barely gets used. Selfcare has the issue where it can be used whenever, making it seem very weak. But Selfcare should be used like Unbreakable. How often do you find yourself in a situation where Selfcare could have been the solution? Not that often, sure, but still often enough to be worth running it.

"And no mither? For what? The only thing that will help you from it is to slap also iron will and now stridor has no effect on you... but quess what, it wouldn't have anyway if you were healthy." If you're slugged, your sounds are also softer. And yes, at first that would be true, which is why *the only bad thing* is that you start out injured. After the first hit from the killer, how often do you NOT get healed by a teammate, how often do you need to heal yourself up with a medkit? No Mither has that downside at the start of the match compared to being healthy, but over the course of the match, that healthy bonus isnt going to last as long as you assume it would. You're thinking theoretical situations where everyone gets healed up as soon as they lose the killer. That is practically not common tho.

"Like c'mon you are sounding like the legendary selfcaring nancy, who already is doing totems or the "doing gens and you" survivor from noob3..."

Oh really? I did research into perks because I got bored running meta perks. I looked at the practical effects of perks, rather than the theoretical ones. And guess what? My winrate increased. Because not only are most perks good enough to be ran at high tier red rank games, most players have no clue how to actually counter it. Thinking an effect is weak because it requires a different playstyle is a key give-away that you actually have no clue why a perk doesnt get buffed or nerfed. If they are going to buff Dying Light to a point where both stacks are being kept and the obsession no longer has a healing bonus, I will have a 100% winrate.