There needs to be logical counterplay against Spirit, and when you play as her.
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Problem is stealth at its core is very inconsistent and not very fun to me
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Like this "@ + the profile name"
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Thanks
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I get that, it's not the most fun but I think of it as one in how many games and try to at least do a couple of gens before exposing myself and trying to distract the killer so the others can do something.
While in chase, I try to run towards her when she's transporting as she goes through you and can get a little lost. It does piss them off so be ready.
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I thought of this as well for a while.
First of all, I hate Stridor on Spirit or not having Iron Will, not the Spirit herself. Her being able to track you so easily once you are hit is just stupid and disables a lot of things you can do. I used this "Crouch Tech" subconciously for a while now and it helps sometimes if you are not injured. But it never worked for me as well while injured and being loud as hell or against a good Spirit. I am better off with backtracking or dissappearing behind a corner most times.
My idea would be to adjust Iron Will and what sounds the Spirit can hear while phasing.
- Iron Will would no longer make you completely quiet, but would give your character the "being healthy" breathing sounds when injured. The current tiers would stay, so you'll get more quiet and on T3 you'd only emit normal breathing. This way It keeps the core elements of the perk, but enables the killers to hear your breathing while injured like you were not. A Spirit can track this very well and there would be no need for Stridor anymore.
- The Spirit would not hear any "injured sounds" while phasing, only normal breathing. This way Survivors without IW have a chance (who just emit "normal breathing" from her view) and Stridor doesn't screw even those with IW. Stridor on Spirit would not be completely useless, since it also makes normal breathing louder, but it would be more fair imo.
I hope my idea is understandable. If not, then I'm happy to explain further.
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Thank you for explaining my point better than I ever could
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"Crouch Tech" means, that you stop running and start crouching when a Spirit phases, because the sounds you emit seem to be more quiet (at least in that streamers opinion) and therefore the Spirit assumes that you are further away than you actually are. This way you are supposed to gain distance to the killer.
This Tech is supposed to be a counterplay to spirit, since there are some people who say that Spirit has no counterplay.
Hint: She does, but it's not consistant.
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I didn't say you said anything. I said presumably you adopt a particular opinion. Now, I haven't done a search of your post history, but I'm willing to bet that if I did, I wouldn't see any threads started by you about how survivors have too many 2nd chance perks and the killers need some assistance. Presuming that to be true, it would seem clear that you're happy about that situation, juxtaposed with you making threads about how certain killers are too overpowered.
And even if you did think that survivors had too many 2nd chances, etc, you'd be in the minority of survivors who think that. You classicly missed my point about the wider issue to focus on your own personal take.
Spirit requires time to get good. You have to learn the mind-game. You have to learn to predict where survivors might go, etc. It's not the same physical skill as a huntress, billy or blight require. It's more of a mental skill. Different category altogether. And some people can adapt to that better than others. I can't aim for poop, so I'm useless with Huntress. But I'm better at putting myself in the survivor position and predicting where they might go... and because you don't like that, I have to lose the very essence of this killer??
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You see predicting where a survivor is going and tracking are both non killer specific skills. Let’s take a killer who requires mental ability specific to them ,Hag.
Hag is pretty much 100% knowing where survivors are going to go. This skill is pretty much exclusive to hag( and maybe trapper too). Not to mention hags countered by flashlights and crouching as well as having really fun mind games around traps at loops
As for my post I don’t really complain about second chance perks because it’s been talked to to death and I don’t have anything to add. Of course there are a lot of survivors who think second chances are balanced just like killers who think nurse and spirit are
The only skill spirit has to learn that’s exclusive to her would be cooldown management but there are now at least 4 other killers with this( billy PH legion Blight) so even that isn’t specific to her
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So I'm bad because the Spirit I'm going against was running Stridor, who basically has loud as hell sounds to work with while I get zero information as to where she is. Playing a bunch of guessing games isn't counterplay, if a Spirit guesses wrong than that's on her. Scott Jund has debunked these Spirit counterplay myths a whole bunch of times.
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It's pretty funny how obvious certain killers need to be nerfed (Freddy, Spirit, Nurse) and certain need to be buffed (Legion, Trapper, Wraith) but the changes are glacially slow.
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Trapper is the poster child and only got the ability to reset traps after like 4 years
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Really, going against spirit is like a guessing game.
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Now imagine the survivor meltdowns if sounds were as clear as they were before the 3 cycles of getting bugged and "fixed".
Respect the killers who can track survivors by sound and be glad theyre special and not the normal.
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you literally just proved my point... XD
"Then they are bad at X! There is no counterplay"
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I'm by no means a great Spirit, but Iron Will is really an inconvenience rather than a huge counter. You can still hear rustling grass and footsteps if you're paying attention.
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So 30% across the board of every spirit but ignoring all the "bad" spirits that have been shown to fall for the tricks more than 30%.
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You fundamentally aren't understanding what I'm saying.
"You're saying we shouldn't look for feedback against spirit, so if we dont have feedback, that's basically a guessing game (the definition says that)"
You making your decision without feedback is guessing as you say. However, that is not what I am saying. IE you are debating a point that I didn't actually make. You think that's the point I was making because you misunderstood what I said.
I am not telling you to make a read based on what the Spirit is doing without having feedback (guessing).
What I am telling you to do is to feed her false information so she makes the wrong read. That has nothing to do with you guessing anything at all. You are the one starting the interaction. The information you feed her will be the same regardless of the situation.
The reason you are mistaking these is because you are still stuck in the mindset that you are reacting to her. You are not reacting to her.
You are suppose to be playing pro-active and forcing her to react to you as I already said in my previous posts. This is zero guessing on your part. She is the one being forced to make the read, not you.
"It is a guessing game, a UNFAIR guessing game, cause your opponent (the spirit has information about the survivor) while... the survivor doesn't have any, cause:
- She doesn't move grass
- Shards glow... yes they do, but you have to be really close to the spirit to actually see something, and probably you're going to be dead if you do that
- Spirits hears sound, and yeah you would say "Just use iron will" but literally every spirit is using stridor which kills iron will."
You don't need Iron Will to beat Spirit. Iron Will is meta anyway tbh, so it's not like it costing you anything even if you were running it.
She has more information than you when you are injured, but not when you are uninjured. Before being injured she is having to guess where you are by predicting movement.
You are asking for so much hand holding against Spirit. The amount of hand holding you want would make her non-viable against good survivors.
There is lots of counter play to Spirit before even getting into perks. I have had no issues facing Spirits at rank 1 regularly for years, why are you? This is a skill issue, not a Spirit issue.
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That's literally all I'm asking for when it comes to Spirit. I really do like her general design, and like the idea of her phasing into her own world of sort. But there just isn't enough information on survivor end to work with, because once your injured you just gotta hope that the Spirit you're going against isn't that experienced with her in order to make those tricks work. Because the Spirit I went against yesterday didn't fall for none of that since she had Stridor, and it was a PC Spirit as well. I do know of people who use that surround sound stuff to give them an advantage, which is by all means unfair. At the end of the day the counterplay isn't there really, it's just guessing games on motorcycles by both sides.
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She does, the glass on her lights up.
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@ClownIsUnderrated If she hits you, the chase is officially over. Sounds are directional. You lose. That's it. Its why there is no counterplay. If you need perks to have even a sliver of a chance against a killer, that's terrible game design. You can't trick a Spirit if you moan from 6 steps away and the sounds are directional. You just can't. There is no mindgame. You just LOSE.
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You need to be close enough to the point where it doesn't matter - As far as I'm concerned this is a visual bug that isn't consistent. If you're close enough to see the shards you're close enough to where Spirit is going to hear you and easily track you. Being close enough to see it usually means phasing was pointless in the first place for Spirit unless you're in front of a pallet or something.
This is something I would actually be interested in seeing the devs comment on in all honesty.
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If people are saying there is ACTUAL counterplay then I need to see this for myself, til then there's no counterplay whatsoever. It's just guessing games, and hope you guess right and if you don't then oh well outplayed..
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Spirit has some problems, the biggest of which is that her power is relatively sound dependant. She can only see scratch marks and grass moving (unless she uses an iri add-on to see bloodtrails too), everything else is sound.
If you want to get rid of Stridor Spirit, either Iron Will needs to go, or spirit needs to get something else for tracking. Because having a killer that can be thwarted by standing still or walking outside of grass is a dumb mechanic.
Spirit does have counterplay, its the same as the Oni's, take as much time as you can before getting injured and heal as soon as you can.
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So what you 2 are pretty much saying is that it's okay for killers to guess and hope and base everything off expirence (even though 80% of killer gameplay is like that), but it's bad that survivor's have to guess off of expirence because they should be soon fed information to outplay the killer?
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This!
Granted I am a Spirit main, but my expirence using her has helped me counter her simply because I mostly think about what I would do as Spirit in the situation.
If I manage to outplay her because i guessed correctly, that's distance I'm gaining. If I guessed incorrectly oh well I have to try again. You don't have to play "Ring Aroind The Pallet" with every killer, and every killer shouldn't be look backwards for spoon fed counterplay.
For once can their be a killer that makes survivor's use expirence to outplay instead of typical shift+W and looking back
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That's how every single killer works in this game so yes - If that's how simplified you need it then yes.
Nurse is like that
Ghost face is like that
Trapper is like that
Huntress is like that
I could literally go on - Every killer except Spirit gives the survivor proper information to react.
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Nah, I have my answer. You would rather hold shift+W rather than use the killer that's problematic for you so you can use your brain and think from their prespective when vs them
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Don't forget that you can break a Hag's web, and you can see her and Trapper both place traps! Trapper also requires you to go to wakanda for most of your trap, and they require set up time. You can also do fun baits with Hag traps.
Spirit can kinda just... go. It's not hard for her to get the first hit or subsequent hits. You can't bait because you don't know where she's coming from, or if she's even still on you to bait. Add this in with the insanity of Stridor on her, and her counterplay is pretty non-existent unless she's bad or you're in a coordinated group.
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What answer? I'm literally a killer / Nurse main. Spirit is one of the most brainless killers to play in the game. No information is properly telegraphed so each time a survivor has a ######### game and they come in my game they pull some bs nonsense because they didn't have fun in their previous game vs spirit.
Is it obvious I have a bias against Spirit? 100% anyone can figure that out. I want good killers to require skill unique to them. Spirit's skill requirements are acquired with literally any other killer. There's no unique skills Spirit has aside from passively mind gaming survivors because again information is not telegraphed. If you can't see that sorry buddy can't help you but that's the reality. To deny that Spirit is the only killer who doesn't have information properly telegraphed to survivors is to deny facts.
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Okay, I'm a retired Nurse main! I dropped her because I felt that when I mastered her I wasn't using any skill because I learned everything Nurse had to offer. At least with Spirit you can't depend on sight and have to heavily rely on sounds or predicting survivor's pathing to get them.
And why do survivor's need every single detail that they've been recieving since the first minute they played to counter another player? You would think that by the time they reach purple ranks they would use expirence to outplay the killer but they got use to having information spoon fed to them.
This is exactly why I stopped playing the game. The survivor community is more focused on the 1v1 and not the 4v1. But i guess I'm too much of a killer main and think that survivor's should use expirence as well to counter killers because 98% of killer roaster its that way is the wrong mindset.
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Not sure if I've been ninja'd already, but apparently her glass shards glow slightly when she phases. It's invisible in most lighting.
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Double post because I fail again!I've never seen this tactic work. Ever.
The Spirit comes back, and hits them when they crouch. Every time. Just about every Spirit player I've seen never give up chase unless there's a much more tantalizing target literally under their nose--they hit, they chase, they down, they move to the next person or perform clean-up around the chase area (breaking pallets, gens, doors, etc.)
Honestly, people complain about Legion, and I don't get it--I've had much worse experiences consistently with Spirit players, mostly because (unless the survivors are a coordinated group or the killer is very new) the killer is guaranteed a 3k without much in the way of effort.
I don't feel like Spirit's very fun from a killer standpoint either, but I'm told that my opinion is worthless, so take that how you want, I guess.0 -
actually it's not you're bad but some people doesn't recognize what balance is.
regarding this :
"X has no counterplay"
"I do this and that to counterplay it"
"Then they are bad at X! There is no counterplay"
it's the dumbest thing ever. it's special leading, no true scotsman... all packed in a couple sentences.
maybe...just maybe... you're just bad at playing against spirit
this is the most dumbest thing also, if you could say something is unbalanced only statistic will tells it, not some true scotsman fallacy like this since this is really untrue, since we don't say this is 100% counter and if it can only counter 10-20% of spirit at rank 1, and 80-90% spirit at rank 1 then it is balance ?
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@ClownIsUnderrated I'm always told to just outsmart a killer who is invisible, doesn't make noise, doesn't move grass or corn, who can hear me moaning from about 7-8 steps away, sound is directional and you can tell how far the person is from the moans who can also zip across the map in seconds faster than Billy with certain add-ons. Seems like a fair, balanced killer who you can mindgame by just tricking her by making her deaf, I guess XD since sounds are directional and pretty loud when hurt, you can't do anything.
You camp a pallet and guess what? Sounds are DIRECTIONAL. She can tell which side you are on while invisible. The "counterplay" is just to stand still, walk, crouch. How do you do that when you moan directly underneath her as she passes you by and gets a super speed lunge when coming out? If you can tell me that, I'll call you a genius. The reason I'm speaking directly to you is because when I try to explain to others', I get told to either get gud, stop overexaggerating her or just use bigger brains. There is no real way to fight her when you're hurt. If someone says Iron Will, that's a perk. That automatically is bad on its own then you have Stridor.
I want a REAL way to counter her when I get initially hit then I just get bodied shortly afterwards from a speedy Spirit that I can't react to who gets easy directional moans. Make her shimmer a little. Make her make slight sounds here and there. Even Wraith can't just speed up to you and get an easy wack. He has to, at least, uncloak first.
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I mean, she does make a sound beyond the terror radius. Why nef a killer because its cunning? I just don't understand why people complain so much about Spirit, and not Nurse; they both have similar powers. I play Spirit, and I'm not the best, but when I'm phasing to a gen, most survivors know. Its a pretty consistent cue, but its small, people do need to look for it.
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imagine if nurse suddenly appear to you and she doesnt have fatigue after blinking and can start the chase, proceed to hit you 1 time and have stridor then you cant escape
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Iron well, lucky brack, quick and quiet and what ever you want fast vault perk or self heal that's what I would use
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Understandable, but her hit cooldown is longer than Nurse.
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Not everything needs "counterplay" what most survivors mean when someone doesn't have counterplay is there is no singular strategy to just remove the killers power.
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