NOED is extremely unhealthy
NOED is one of the unhealthiest perks in the game. I'm having a really hard time understanding some people's arguments against it.
"Just cleanse totems" --> You all know for sure that it is highly unrealistic to expect all 5 totems to be cleansed without dedicating your entire build and time into it. Sometimes you can't find each of them on some maps and sometimes you'll go out of your way to do 4 but the last one will STILL trigger NOED. You literally have to ignore your main objectives, gens, helping other survivors and run around the entire map taking your time cleansing all 5 totems. Well you probably won't even reach the endgame if you play like that. Also, cleansing dull totems doesn't reward you in anyway expect for BPs and a potential NOED.
"NOED isn’t even a good perk" --> Just because you don't come across NOED as a rank 1 player (red ranks), doesn't mean it isn't used widely by all killers in purple and green ranks. Just because you know how to counter NOED doesn't mean the killers aren't rewarded free kills on lower ranks. Sometimes survivors don't know what to do and that they can go down with an easy basic attack. Some of y'all need to think outside of the red rank bubble. NOED is super common on lower ranks, you basically assume the killer has it.
"NOED is inconsistent" --> Never have I ever been a part of a game where NOED didn't trigger and reward the killer at least 1k. I only play solo and expecting all other survivors to find and cleanse each totem is unrealistic. It's just so unfair that you have to go through the whole game and all your efforts to escaping is thrown away by A PERK.
I am trying to be objective here. Before you assume: I play both survivor and killer equally. I see problem perks for both sides. But NOED is the CHEAPEST out of them all. For example: even though functionally similar, I don't mind Devour Hope AT ALL! Because the killer actually EARNED that power and had to progress in the game. It actually adds some excitement into the game to see everyone trying their best to find and get rid of the Devour Hope totem. It's very powerful but still fair. Meanwhile NOED is like: "here get these free kills because you reached... the endgame...?" It's just extremely unhealthy... It's a widely known stereotype that you expect the killer to have NOED if they are doing badly during game... Isn't that enough by itself to show what a joke of a perk it is...
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Honestly NOED would be a lot more tolerable if the game incentivized totem cleansing. For most new and mid rank players, totems are seen as a "yeah, I guess" side objective. There should be more perks which encourage Survivors to cleanse totems regardless of if a hex is active or not, something akin to Inner Strength. Cleansing totems is a counter to NOED, and even with debuffs it takes about 10 seconds to cleanse. The issue comes down to Survivors prioritizing it.
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Agreed, if its incentivised newer players with less experience would also go for totems rather than seeing them as optional.
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Here's Objective:
The perk does nothing except to endanger one-shotting survivors already in the Healthy State, that get found, and hit, and don't make it to the hatch.
Situations where NOED does nothing:
- Against already injured people.
- Games that end before gens are completed.
- Games where you don't reach any survivors before the gates
NOED hate is from bad players that can't avoid the Killer at end game, especially those that rely on Adrenaline as a "crutch".
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Yeah, I also think it's really unfair that you have to go through the whole game and all your efforts to get a kill are thrown away by a clutch endgame DS.
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To touch on the first point, you really don't need to base an entire build around cleansing totems. All you really need to do is run either Detective's Hunch, Small Game or bring a map.
There's also the fact that if you bring NOED, you're only playing with 3 perks for the majority of the game. You're essentially trading some of your early-mid game power for late game lethality. And that's late-game lethality you might not even get if someone is using one of the three anti-totem things listed above.
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- "Against already injured people."
Are you seriously ignoring 4% Movement Speed? The Movement Speed is probably more problematic than the Instadown.
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Yes, it is unhealthy. They either should rework it to a Perk which helps Killers who did well during the game, but does little to nothing to those who failed the whole match OR at the very, very least give a Totem Counter. If I know that there is only 1 Totem left, I am more inclined to search for it than when I have to guess how many Totems are left and have to check every Totem Spot, just to find out that there is still the best hidden Totem left, which turns into NOED.
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It seems pretty healthy. If it didn't exist, nobody would worry about doing totems at all and gens would get done faster than they already do.
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You don't have to cleanse 5 totems, you only need to cleanse one <--- If the killer has no pop or ruin however, it absolutely is realistic to cleanse all of them, however if they do not then yeah, don't worry about it. You only have to cleanse one. You can literally use hunch or a map or just remember where they are and just cycle around for like 30 seconds or whatever till you get to the lit one and break it. It's not hard except a bit in solos, where, surprise, everything is harder.
It is a good perk, it's a very powerful and very balanced one, just it annoys some people because it activates at the apex of the game.
Noes is inconsistent. Against good teams it's often broken after only getting usually one hook and maybe one other down and then they recover from it; the 1 death on average is usually because the killer gets that anyways generally by camping that one person- all NOED does is shut down the meta perks that almost always get that person out. They generally don't go around the map with noed, so I mean you have however long their hook meter is to break that totem. If you can't find it then yeah, you have to get out, but often it's found, broken, and you can then use your meta perks again. Most of the NOED blunders you are thinking of are solo queue.
It's not cheap, it's a well rounded and balanced perk honestly.
However, I personally feel that you should not use NOED with Pop or Ruin because it does help you solidify a kill or two sometimes in the end game a bit easier, which is fair and balanced mind you, but not healthy for learning how to play killer effectively. Without slowdown though I find it generates some really fun games for both sides and you still benefit from the match experience.
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I agree. At current state wasting time cleansing a dull totem instead of doing a gen is pointless.
Yes I agree but please don't turn this into a survivor/killer war. DS has it's issues and it's being looked at. On this discussion I wanted touch on NOED.
It just seems pretty strange that I have to equip two perks and bring a map to counter ONE perk...
I agree. Sometimes even having done most totems is worse! Because now NOED is in the corner of the map somewhere.
Are players really worried about doing totems though? Are they though? Do you think there are enough incentives to cleansing totems except for a potential NOED?
I am pretty sure NOED is WAAAAAY more useful than you make it sound.
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You need up rank cuz in red ranks is rare the killer that use noed
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It is the last reason for survivor to cleanse dull totem. Without it, the so called survivor second objective is no longer objective, because there is no further reason to cleanse it.
If you hate it so much, drop your DS UB BT meta perks for 1 or 2 perks for totems. Or bring a map. Simple counter.
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If that were true it would be on every red rank killer's load out. Obviously this is not the case.
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Yes, I am seriously ignoring the 4% movement speed.
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NOED is not unhealthy. Or at least no more unhealthy than a lot of the Survivor meta perks.
NOED's effects are fine. It is hardly the only perk that inflicts the Exposed status effect. Its speed boost is less than a single stack of Play With Your Food, though it does have a different requirement for losing it. The total amount of time it is going to be active is... a very very small percentage of the match. At worst, NOED has a telegraphing issue. It gives the Killer a massive power spike at the end of the game with little to no warning, which doesn't really feel great to be on the receiving end of, but it happens sometimes..
Here's the thing though. Decisive Strike only gives a hint that it might be in the game, even then you have no idea who (if anyone) has it and if you yourself as the killer are running an Obsession Perk, you don't even have that hint. Unbreakable gives no hint its in the game until after its been used. Adrenaline is the same way. All 5 Exhaustion perks have zero warning that they're in the game. Same with Prove Thyself. In fact, NO Survivor perk lets the killer know it exists ahead of time and a ton of them don't even tell the Killer they're there until the end screen.
Meanwhile, let's look at why NOED exists and gets brought into matches. Have you ever looked at the set of perks available to Killers for free or for only Bloodpoints? There's some decent perks here and there... but overall those perks are kinda terrible. The only good anti gen perk that is free or BP only is Thanatophobia. Thana is a great perk on Legion and maybe Plague... but no one else can use it particularly well. Next best is Huntress Lullaby, and once Survivors get even a tiny bit good, it almost becomes worthless. Enter NOED. New killers have somewhere between minimal to no options for slowing or reverting gen progression and aren't good enough to win without them like some streamers are. They are going to get to end game, so of course they're going to bring a perk that lets them slap around Survivors in a big way when that inevitably happens. Double that if Matchmaking screws them like it frequently screwed me while I was ranking up. I don't know how a green killer vs 2 rank 4s and 2 rank 5s is fair but that and similar things happened to me all the time. NOED can be the thing that prevents you from getting completely bodied as Killer before you have the necessary perks and skills to compete.
NOED should maybe get addressed at some point, but it should NOT get changed before the situation it is acting as the band aid for gets fixed.
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I used to really hate noed but I just think of it as killer's equivalent to hatch.
That's just how things are. When you get hit by noed that negative experience is very fresh. When you're using noed I'm sure the times where it fails is also stuck in your head. For killer it's at most 1 extra kill and sometimes not even that, unless the survivors dive bomb the person on the hook. For survivors, it feels like an undeserved cheap death.
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Why are you being aggressive. Why are you being dismissive assuming that I bring those perks? As a matter of fact I never do because they don't provide me any fun.
Yes, since more skillful killers don't even want to reach the endgame they bring in better perks. But just because skillful players don't need it... does that make it fair for other players? Not everyone is a red rank...
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It is unhealthy and needs a nerf, but it isn't a good perk and it is counterable. Good killers won't run noed, and if they do, they won't need to use it. Bad killers will run noed, and if they do it means they can't control the gen speed which means you have time to do bones. It's a second chance killer perk
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Devour Hope is fair only because there is NOED. Once NOED is removed why does DH have an insta down for just three hooks? Why is there an insta down when a survivor breaks Haunted Grounds? Shouldn't it just be for the one that broke it like Make Your Choice?
Only reason NOED is an issue is because survivors think they won after five gens and NOED takes that from them. You have not won. The game is not over. You need to escape.
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Thank you for sharing your knowledge and opinion. I totally agree there are also issues with survivor's perks too! Just wanted to mention NOED here. I also agree that at least informing the survivors that NOED is active would make it ...more fun.
I just find it weird that people expect bad killers to use NOED but also think it's in a healthy spot.
I disagree. DH is fair because the killer actually earned it by progressing in the game. I might haven't earned to escape after doing 5 gens but why did the killer deserve to earn all the easy kills for?
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just your daily dose of a survivor complaining about noed
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Hi there. In what way were you planning to provide anything to the discussion?
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im not. im just annoyed. thats what forums are for. discussions and opinions
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I also have a potential method of fixing NOED. The way I'd like them to fix it is fourfold.
- Add a 3rd state for Totems. I call it a smoldering totem. It is essentially halfway between Dull and Hex totems for both how on fire it is and how many points it is worth. Smoldering Totems would indicate that this Totem is either giving the Killer a minor buff or may turn into something scary later.
- Make NOED promote all Dull Totems to Smoldering Totems and buff Thrill Of The Hunt to give a loud noise on Smoldering Totems as well as Hex Totems. NOED would also unpromote all Smoldering Totems back to Dulls when it fully activates if no other perk is promoting them.
- Add in some other perks that promote Dulls to Smolderings that have mechanics similar to Thrill of the Hunt where they have tokens for each remaining Totem and give a small buff per token.
- Give the Survivors a Totem Counter in game. The one I'm partial to wasn't my own design, but I saw someone suggest putting 5 candles on a wall in the basement. They start lit and go out as totems are cleansed.
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If when Noed activated all survivors got the exposed affect similar to when Myers goes into tier 3 and it was not a surprise when someone gets hit first it would make it less of an angering perk. I would like to see it gone in general but here is an idea to make it less annoying.
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Is doing totems really to much to ask for?
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seems to be
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That's a really cool idea. It adds some new elements to the game. Also I would love a totem counter!
Yeah I can see. At least giving the warning would make it more fun to go against and endgame could potentionally turn entertaining.
As a solo player it kind of is. I can't rely on random players to do them. So potentially I have to ignore my main objective and search around the map for minutes not participating in gens/saves. You guys have to be realistic about it. How many games do you play where all 5 totems are found and cleansed?
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NOED is neither strong, nor unfair.
NOED actually adds a LOT to the game. See, DBD, and most games, are games about tension. If one side gets out to a huge lead, or somehow has victory basically already secure, it gets BORING.
Take Mario Kart, a classic example of a 'unfun' mechanic actually making the game way better. The blue shell fixes a problem with the game: When your way out ahead of everyone nothing is happening and the game is boring. The blue shell punishes going out way ahead and makes it unlikely that you get a dramatic breakaway. Despite getting hit by the blue shell sucking and feeling REALLY bad, what it gives to the overall experience is good.
NOED is a problem, not in that its unfair, or too good, or toxic, but in that it doesn't actually accomplish ENOUGH. NOED is meant to make it so survivors can't act with total impunity when the exit gates are powered, make the end game a raising of the stakes where every individual survivor could escape but now late rescues are extremely dangerous. It utterly fails at this outside 'final boss' builds (Ex: Remember me, blood warden, NOED). But it, at the very least, makes it so the endgame isn't a boring bully fest where the survivors just walk over the killer.
Some of NOED, and I say this without a trace of irony, should be base kit. You should, once the gates are powered, REALLY just want to leave, really agonize over every choice to stay. You should be dramatically encouraged to end the game, rather than drag it out. NOED does a bad job at this because you still basically are forced to camp the hook of whoever you downed so it just kinda gets one more kill. End game hooks probably are what actually should be re-evaluated so that more legitimate interaction can happen.
But all these complaints about NOED really strike me as not survivors caring that its 'unfair' so much as survivors whining they can't get basically a guaranteed endgame rescue by bodyblocking the hook and that going down when the killer has literally nothing to lose is REALLY BAD. The killer... kinda desperately needs MORE end game power, not less, because the endgame... kinda sucks and is entirely one sided right now.
I wouldn't mind seeing NOED go away if endgame was reworked entirely, I don't think its a great design, but NOT because its unrealistic for survivors to get rid of it or rescue in spite of it. Its that it doesn't give enough of one last gasp of energy to the game because it generally gets you one extra hook and that is it as a killer, so you never run it.
Post edited by dezzmont on9 -
while I agree NOED needs a change you don't need to dedicate an entire build to counter it. Detective hunch, a map item or small game is enough
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That's a really cool idea. It adds some new elements to the game. Also I would love a totem counter!
Yeah I can see that. At least giving the warning would make it more fun to go against and endgame could potentionally turn entertaining.
As a solo player it kind of is. I can't rely on random players to do them. So potentially I have to ignore my main objective and search around the map for minutes while not participating with gens/saves. You guys have to be realistic here... How many games have you had where all 5 totems were found and cleansed?
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But you don't need to cleanse them all, just remember where you see them while going from point a to b. Then cleanse the one that lights up.
Personally I cleanse as I see them, but then playing solo I run inner strength a lot, and like having a heal ready when I need it.
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This is the best explanation of NOED I have seen.
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If you admit the perk is not needed, then obviously it isn't so powerful as to require a nerf.
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It's been 5 ######### years. How are we still talking about noed?
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Detective's Hunch is literally all you need. It's obviously easier if others help, but I do it solo all the time.
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To be fair people bitched about DS for nearly as long.
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Bring back OG NOED!!!
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Thank you for sharing your point of view. It's a perspective I haven't considered before!
The problem is if we buff and nerf perks depending on the top players it'll be a problem. While NOED might be a silly perk on high ranks, it dominates survivors on lower ranks.
To be fair it's not just NOED that is being talked about. A lot of perks... If it's still being talked about there might be a lingering problem.
Oh Lord, have mercy.
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I think one of the things that survivors REALLY need to internalize is that sometimes... your SUPPOSED TO LOSE.
Not in general, but certain gamestates need to be especially dangerous: If perfect play lets you win no matter what, you actually encourage sloppy bad play because you can just get yourself out of any situation. You know, E-Hondo is a bad character in Street Fighter overall, but if he gets you to the corner you LOSE. You don't have a rough match, you LOSE if he has any idea what he is doing. This creates tension because your trying to avoid a certain state.
I think enshrining 'If you go down while gates are powered or gates are powered while your down and don't have adrenaline, or your already on hook, your basically screwed' as a mechanic is a pretty... gosh darn fair loss state. Hook interactions in general should be states where you feel like 'Ok unless the killer screws up or my allies apply really good pressure I am done for.' That is what it felt like back in 2016: getting unhooked was a minor miracle, not a guarantee. Obviously we can't go back, but killers are so weak at defending hooks that in endgame they... well they shouldn't go afk, there is still stuff they can do... but they might as well go afk.
I think the thing that pisses survivors off about NOED is that its one of the ONLY times in all of DBD where the killer unambigously has an advantage you can't play around. Most scenarios are neutral (ex: loops where you trade time for hits, which low key favor survivors) or are overtly survivor sided (ex: Safe pallets which just do not allow killers outside of nurse and spirit to interact with them). "Gates open, someone on the hook" feels downright disempowering to killer, which is part of the entire problem with the endgame collapse system and the killer role in general, its MEANT to be able to perfectly defend but not have map presence, but so many tools exist to get past camping killers now that even at the times the killer SHOULD be able to block a rescue they can't unless they have NOED. So survivors just... assume rescues are guaranteed now, and NOED is a rude reminder that, no, sometimes you are supposed to lose, and because its so rare they don't internalize its an intended thing in MOST GAMES that there are scenarios that no matter how well you play you lose for even attempting them, because you need to reward macro level play as well as micro.
Honestly an endgame hook should be the equivalent of a survivor sitting on the other side of a god pallet: Sure with amazing mindgames and a mistake by your opponent you might win that interaction, but realistically its not a good idea and you should probably back off despite really not wanting to do so. Killers are VERY familiar with having to pick their fights and just... give up on doing something they want to do. Survivors are... not at all, and resent the idea they ever should have to do so.
Even the standard argument of 'oh getting suddenly eliminated for one mistake isn't fun' doesn't make sense in regards to NOED. Firstly, player elimination is an intrinsic part of how DBD works and framing the ultimate goal of the game design as avoiding the downswing of emotions being eliminated causes is deceptive because it completely removes all the tension from the hook and the entire point of the system to be guaranteed 3 changes, but secondly because THE GAME IS ALREADY OVER. Boo hoo your gunna not be able to play out 30 seconds of teabagging at the gate. Oh no you almost certainly pipped if you played well but you won't get the survivor points to double pip because you were careless or in a chase as the gates were opened and you directly won the game for your side! Endgame is basically a survivor victory lap to spite the killer right now you shouldn't feel entitled to just survive because you got the exit gates open because its so trivial to do so in 99% of cases and you have internalized that 'gates open=game over and its all just forcing the killer to afk for a minute or chase you knowing they lost.'
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I said you only have to bring any ONE of them. You have three options, but any ONE on it's own gets the job done.
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The real problem with NOED is that it absolutely is unhealthy and unbalanced vs solo queue teams which already have it rough.
Swfs have a much higher chance of coordinating to cleanse all totems or leave 1 behind for someone to go and cleanse when NOED procs after last gen. Solo queue? Lol I wouldn't expect even red rank solo queue survivors to coordinate that well tbh.
I don't want noed nerfed into uselessness but I also think it's unfair in its current form because what's stopping an already very good Killer player from running it and abusing its power?
I'm sorry but I can't get over people downplaying its power, it isn't just insta downs it's also a nifty haste effect which is highly underrated. If a killer has already secured one or two kills by mid to late game NOED is just like overkill.
Idk, like when I play killer I just don't feel comfortable using it it feels dirty lol but if other killers think it's fair and balanced and should be used then go off I guess. I'll admit I play way more survivor than I do killer but I try to meet in the middle for both sides and I honestly do think it could do with some sort of reworking where it keeps a lot of its power though
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Noed "feels" better, if that's the right word, in situations when the killer has done
a pretty good job so faran alright job overall, at least having a few survivors on death hook anyway, against survivors who just hopped from gen to gen and ignoring any unlit totems.When a group of solos do all gens, 4 totems, and the killer just spends most of the match trying to catch one of them and ignoring all gens before getting everyone with noed, feels pretty bad.
I'm against removing noed atm bc after the dying of undying, noed, inner strength and... thrill of the hunt I guess are the only incentives to even go near a dull totem rather instead of just smashing gens.
If some other, possibly base punishment was there for ignoring totems (especially for cases where between 3-5 totems are left standing, which is less forgiveable than one well-hidden totem being overlooked) then I'd be happier with them reworking/nerfing noed into something else.
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Perhaps a new alternative to NOED: Gain a meaty speedboost for each unlit totem still in the game, and a reduction to your swing speed.
If 3+ totems are still lit, your basically in permanent bloodlust 3 or better and swing so fast you are like oldschool machinegun build where you get effective instadowns. If its less you still get a nice powerup that makes it really hard to unhook in your face, if its 0 you got the benefit of survivors cleansing everything which took up a bit of time.
Or hell, make a basekit thing to a similar effect and then add a perk that amps up the benefits to this level. The killer NEEDS to be more dangerous on gate power up, they just do, but there are ways to do it that make more sense and aren't as all or nothing as NOED, which is the real problem of the perk. I think the killer basekit overall needs a bit of love because there are too many wonky aspects to it that muck with its power level in scenarios that allow survivors to 'overpower' the killer despite the survivors being uncharacteristically agro.
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I basically expect myself to die when entering a game HAHA. So I have no problem losing. But I really like your point of view, thank you. Shout out to E-Honda big booty claps.
Yes and I think this has been my experience as a solo player. It's just the icing on the cake after all the hardship you had to go through. I have no coordination with anyone. Helping with every objective but then dying on the first hook endgame with a easy M1 has become very predictable and dreadful lately.
Yes I think the annoying part is that. Where a killer lacks all the skills but still gets you without any mind-game, tactic etc. where I can be like "ahhh, okay you got me, you deserve this kill". It just seems too easy.
What I have thought was: "If there are 2 or more totems left in the map NOED activates." which translates to, survivors literally ignored all dull totems, just rushed gens and will get punished.
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That's a fair point.
And I am thankful those discussions are over.
But you are not wrong!
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Do you know noed increase the killer velocity, don’t you?
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Well, keys add tension too, so they’re totally ok
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I don’t have a problem with it, and I’ve died many times because of it. It’s a terrible feeling to willingly take a protection hit for someone you unhooked thinking that you still have a chance to get away only to have some other counselor fix a gen in that exact second and you go down due to NOED. I always run Small Game but that said, if all four survivors simply kept an eye out for totems and cleansed them as soon as they’re found then NOED would almost certainly never become a problem.
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