Killers are 110% Movement Speed for a reason.
After seeing so many people suggest the Trickster should be 115%, I decided to go back and read things around the release of deathslinger and huntress, and the same things were said about them. I guess I just don't get how people thought these people needed to be 115%. If we want to talk buffs for the Trickster, there are much better ways to do it, but making a ranged killer 115% isn't the solution to the flaws.
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Plague and PH are both 115% to be fair so it’s not out of the question
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The difference is that Huntress/DS only need one shot to injure someone. Trickster needs EIGHT. Also, Pyramid Head.
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Yes I agree they both are but I wouldn't say their power is necessarily ranged like how deathslinger's, Huntress, and Trickster's range is. I agree Trickster being 115 would make him better, but not as a ranged killer. Huntress would be better as a 115 killer as well, doesn't mean thats the answer.
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And after about an hour playing him this becomes incredibly easy.
Edit: wrong person
Edit 2: not wrong person I'm just dumb
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The thing is that 4.4 or 110% killers is that their power is good, trickster's power is a good idea but poorly executed, I'm not judging him as much since he will most likely get a buff.
I feel like trickster might become a problem when he goes live.
But ptb trickster is bad atm.
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That's why I am saying people should talk about fixing his power and not something not related to it. They need to buff and work on his ability not just movement speed.
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It's still less efficient than Huntress/DS. That's the problem.
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Ok, and? Huntress and Deathslinger have much stronger punishment for missing a shot/hatchet.
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And a much higher yield for hitting, which you should be doing more often than not.
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@Phasmamain The thing with both of them is, they both slowdown when powering up (except super puke but you have to cleanse for that or dodge the freebie that they get), and PH is a bit slow so you can still try to dodge it. They have to do a wind-up. They can't just continuously throw over an object. If you crouch and you can still be hit continuously by a projectile, that's not a good direction to go nor do I want to be butt rode by a projectile user. It's already bad when I get shot over an object by a gunslinger and dragged out with no real way to defend myself behind a pallet. I don't want even more oppressive styles to emerge. That's just my 2 cents.
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Ok and it takes about, four seconds to hit eight knives on a survivor if you catch them in a spot beneficial to you, about 10 if not beneficial to you. With the only penalty being slower movement speed whilst holding knives instead of your m1. But it takes only common sense to realise you shouldn't be holding your knives around a loop like Huntress shouldn't hold her hatchet round loops.
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Trickster is slower while throwing knives and is capable of downing you that quickly
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Trickster is kind of stuck at his 110 speed because of the way his power works. And I'm not talking about the 8 hits, I'm talking about when he can go ham and just spam knives.
It's that flurry itself that's keeping the devs from giving him less than 8 hits or giving him 115% speed IMO.
My hopes aren't high with this killer. He's going to end up being just another mid/low tier killer that's hardly played unless his kit is redone.
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Not that PH is a shining example of good killer design, but point taken lol
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Huntress can injure someone at a loop with a well-timed hatchet. DS can too (though actually downing is harder). Trickster is more often than not stuck as a 110% M1 killer at a loop.
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@Phasmamain Yes, I know. It's so you can't be butt rode to a 1-shot. I'm honestly sick of getting projectile killers but we keep the same low objects in the map. If most objects weren't easy to throw over, I wouldn't honestly mind a bit faster projectile killers but it's becoming too much. The new Ruin plus someone just chucking things at you from a distance making you lose much more progress with minimal effort is tortue.
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Can't you just adjust the Main Event to accommodate for any potential buffs to his movement? Kinda like how they adjusted Combat Straps to accomodate Pig's crouch/uncrouch speed increase?
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Trickster cannot pressure at longer ranges due to how lasceraction works. The metre goes down rather fast and he has to hit 6 knives which due to hitboxes isn’t easy
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I mean ph can have more range than slinger with addons im pretty sure
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You seem to be missing something important.
The reason why some killers have reduced movement speed, is because this is used as a counterbalance for a very strong power.
The Huntress can potentially damage survivors from across the map, and takes free health states when the survivor is locked in animation (vaulting a window, dropping a pallet, etc.)
The Deathslinger doesn't have the range of Huntress, but his ranged ability is almost instantaneous. After getting shot by the Deathslinger, your chance of getting away without losing a health state is very slim. Also locked animations (window, pallet, etc.)
Spirit is essentially the Wraith if you didn't get to see where he is. The movement speed penalty she has when not cloaked, along with the inability to see survivors when cloaked, is supposed to balance her improved invisibility.
The Hag has the ability to travel across the entire map in an instant. If you have distance add-ons, you could even go across Red Forest in less then a second. The movement speed penalty she has makes her weak in chase if she is not properly utilizing her ability.
Nurse has her movement speed even lower then these people, because Nurse.
The Trickster ######### sucks, and BHVR should be disappointed in themselves. Being animation locked (window, pallet) barely has an effect on the survivor. The only time animation lock is bad against him is if it happens multiple times per health state. He does not have the ability to take advantage of this the same way the Huntress, Deathslinger, Spirit, Nurse, or even the Hag can.
The Huntress only needs to hit the survivor 2 times, while the Trickster needs to use 16 knives minimum. And in the range that the Trickster is most effective, you are better off using melee. A killer that is effective only in melee with no movement ability is doomed to fail.
The Trickster simply isn't powerful enough to warrant a movement speed penalty.
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Possibly. But it's my feeling the power of Main Event is what's sticking his speed and 8 hits where it's at.
Frankly, he feels like he should be 115 like Plague, as his power requires multiple hits to be effective like hers. And arguably, she has the better power anyway. There's no way Main Event is anywhere near as good as Corrupt Purge
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PH base range is 8m. Using both addons to increase range he only increases it to 10.5m.
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Again, re-adjust his Main Event if need be.
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@Phasmamain Same with Gunslinger until people got better with him and you can throw knives over objects where pallet spawns are while crouched. Me and my friends tested it on PTB. You can do the same with Gunslinger and Hatchets. I still stand by the fact that I don't want to get butt rode by a projectile killer. Plague can't hurt you without M1'ing you. PH is easy to dodge since he stops for 1 seconds before unleashing. Hatchets are a pain in the ass but you just need to dodge 1 then run like hell. If you made the new killer faster, he'd just butt ride you to death. What if Huntress was normal killer speed? You know how unfun that would be? I will say, they should take her hum out and just make it her terror radius since it wouldn't be that bad, though. Honestly, I rather wait until he's released and give it a few months so people could get use to it. A lot of people said Huntress was bad and after they got good with her, there was a lot of hatred on the forums.
Same with Gunslinger. My dumbass advocated for the chain to be harder to break and we got it. Now I hate my life XD so I learned to just chill for a bit and see. I didn't like the Billy CD, though. I still don't. I see why it was implemented but I enjoyed watching a guy rev continuously as I looped them around a pallet XD I miss those days. I'd say give him time but speed increase is not one of them.
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My bad there sorry. I thought he could have more range
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PH is not long range and you can dodge plague vomit if you're farther than 10 meters bc it's SO SLOW.
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It's not as long range as DS or Huntress, but it is still able to hit someone from the other side of a loop/pallet. That to me is enough to count.
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110 is to compensate for distance of ranged attacks.
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It's not like Trickster actually can reasonably injure someone from THAT far away unless there's NO way to block LOS, though.
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Not just eight, eight -minimum- because of the decay.
Also, Huntress and Slinger are both 100% accurate, while Trickster has deviation on his projectiles. Having 60 knives doesnt really matter if like 75% are gonna miss if you arent at basically point blank range.
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I think there's more interesting ways to buff him.
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You act like Trickster can't down with his knives. I honestly feel like I'm talking to a brick wall rn
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When Huntress was released there were also double the pallets and actual infinites.
Totally different game back then, not even comparable.
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Oh, he certainly can. Just not at a loop. Which is probably the most important place for a 110% killer to have SOME answer to.
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4.4 is not needed. when we have killers like plague who have 4.6 ms and she's totally fine.
Not to mention killers like pyramid head who has a ranged ability that gives walls a middle finger and has his power up all game unlike the plague. the thing its all these 4.6 ranged killers have close to pseudo medium range, jiwoon's power falls more in line with plague's and pyramid head than huntress and caleb who can take away ONE health state WITH ONLY ONE SHOT.
woon needs to land EIGHT inaccurate KNIVES that has significant drop off on a survivor to take away their health state, and breaking line of sight among other things like not shooting them fast enough will drain the damage progression.
his engagement range are pretty bad and lends for him to use it close ranged more like pyramid head and plague than the other two true ranged killers that do deserve to play with 4.4
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killers are given 110% mms instead of the usual 115% mms due to the strength their power has during chases.
these killers are slower than the others, as the Devs want you to focus on using their power instead of just chasing normally as you would with anyone else.
the Trickster however can not deliver in this section. his power is not nearly strong enough to justify the 110% mms in the slightest.
when we look at literally any other killer that has 110%, they all have the ability to end a chase within just a few seconds - Hag, Spirit, Huntress, Deathslinger, ... all have extraordinarily strong chase powers after all. this is something Trickster can not compare with in the slightest, he takes 8 knifes to INJURE a survivor, 16 to down them - plus the automatic decay, so he has to hit them in a certain timewindow. how is that comparable to a Huntress or Deathslinger, who both require but a single shot to injure survivors?
the Tricksters power isnt centered around chases. however, its more ment to be like a zoning ability. by constantly shooting knifes at survivors you can herd them in a certain direction you want them to go into.
this means that his power only really shines when he meets survivors who are outpositioned and in a deadzone without too much cover - any jungly gym is going to give him a very hard time at trying to down someone with his knifes alone.
but doesnt that sound a bit familiar? a killer who can zone survivors and harshly punish those who are outpositioned / traversing from one loop into the other? it certainly does - its exactly what the Blight is doing.
yet Blight, on top of that, has insane map pressure, a much more versitile way of using his power around loops AND is a 115% mms killer.
so we have two options here going forward:
1) acknwledge his lack in chaseability and make him a 115% mms killer with some smaller buffs to him. make it so he isnt reliant on his power but instead has his power as a tool to assist him to achieve hits.
2) buff his power to the point where he gains enough strength in chases to be considerable as a 110% mms killer. this would need some drastic changes to the way his power works however and would, by far, be the more complex option right now.
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He does go even slower when throwing his knives, slower than 110%. So that's also a problem.
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But i mean, he wouldn't need drastic changes to his power, and him losing laceration during a chase is due to a bug, because that isn't what they intended. Honestly, something that would buff him exponentially is just to make him only take 7 or 6 knives to injure, and fix the laceration to work how it should, and maybe make it where while you are injured, only healing can remove laceration. Its not the speed that is wrong with him (while that is a problem with him at his current state), it's his power that is not the best and that is what should be improved to make him more in line with the other ranged killers. Other than the obvious comparisons, I really think Trickster is almost supposed to be the legion of the ranged killers and I hope they adjust his ability and fix it to work as it should. They don't have as much to fix as they did with the twins at least.
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him losing laceration during a chase is due to a bug, because that isn't what they intended
Source?
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Re-reading his power bio, it does in fact say it will go down after a short time of not being hit with a knife so it was intended I suppose I'll give you that, but it doesn't make it any less bad design and it is not the movement speed's fault for it, his power needs to be adjusted that is what I'm getting at. Making him faster won't actually help his design in any way and he will stay the same, but working on his power and improving it is what is gonna make him much better.
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he should get that extra 5%, its already really hard enough to hit 8 knives.
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The point of the post wasn't that he should stay as he is, I was stating that making his movement speed higher isn't a fix to his kit. His power is what needs fixing.
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sorry i didnt read like half of the post. plus i have never played him, im just using other peoples experiences
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Here's how I see things: If he stays at 110, he is going to always have a hard time with gen pressure, which means he will have to have explosive chase potential to make up for that. Possibly to the point of chases being unfun. I think it makes more sense to give him SOME form of extra mobility in order to allow him to be more viable without having to just make him godly at chases.
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A quick preface: I'm of the mentality that all killer perks/killers/survivor perks should be balanced towards a B+ (4/5 or whatever metric you wish) allowing both counterplay for either side, and still allow them to feel impactful. I want a healthy game that's fun for everyone, not bias towards either side (maps imo are allowed to be slightly killer or survivor sided as it encourages both sides to adapt on the fly, which I find is the spice of the game).
That being said, decrease the number of knives required for an injured state by 1 knife (I'm low-balling it for the sake of balance), and either increase the window for him to use his "ultimate", or simply allow him to hold it until some other caveat, i.e. it remains until you down a survivor, encouraging it to be used for split pressure which is how I envision it was intended to be used.
As is, it's very cumbersome to get value out of. It requires you to manipulate it to be very close to max, and then fully charge it on a full health survivor to get real value out of it. Many times (against him or as him) it seems like it's frequently being wasted entirely, or you end up activating it as to not waste it, and then stand there like a moron waiting for the rest of the duration before you can pick them up.
TLDR; less knives for an injured state (which is tricky, too few will make him busted but as is, the amount of effort for the payout isn't quite right), and make his ult less cumbersome/increase the amount of control the player has on activating it. The animation slowdown on the initial swap feels a bit severe, but I understand it as it gives a visual cue for the survivors to start dancing.
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People just need to stop trying to buff stuff 🤣 the devs made the game and characters the way it's meant to be. Just because people can't get kills with a certain killer or escape as a surv doesn't mean the devs need to fix their lack of skills. If u can win, don't play or simply get better
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I fully agree with this and I think his power should be made stronger, and honestly his whole ultimate needs help
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but his power stands in direct corelation to his movementspeed?
as ive explained before, the chase strength of a power determines the general speed of the killer.
having a very strong chase power means the killers speed will be below average, so they are reliant on their power to get chases - and if their power doesnt hold such raw chasing power then they are average speed so they can chase normally and then use their power to assist them during chases, while being perfectly capable of chasing without it.
and as you yourself said: the Tricksters power right now does not at all justify him being a 110% mms killer. and its extremely likely that it was never ment to be an oppressive chase power, it looks a lot more like a zoning ability - which once again doesnt justify a 110% mms.
i think what you dont understand (no offense) is, that its not a killers movementspeed that determines their powers strength, but its the powers strength that determines a killers movementspeed.
you dont design a killer and say "okay i want this dude to be 110% mms, so lets find a power that works with that", you design their power and THEN decide on your overall stats on the killer.
so when we have a power that is obviously lacking the needed strength to be even close to those who are 110% mms (and this wouldnt just be easily fixable. 6 knifes would be a beginning but i highly doubt that'd be enough, Huntress and Slinger are both still a lot deadlier, so you'd need even more, as, as explained before, his core power design isnt centered around chases but rather zoning) sometimes its the better call to just up the movementspeed and then make some minor tweaks on the power.
and just because ive seen you say this a lot:
just because a killer has a ranged ability does not mean they would have to be 110% mms.
there are multiple exceptions to this rule: Plague, Clown and (to an extend) Executioner all have a ranged / projectile based power, while still being 115% mms killers.
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It is not like every killer needs extra mobility of some sorts. Huntress and Deathslinger both have trouble with map pressure, but their power makes up for it in the chase. Trickster needs his chase to be much better and have better potential and he will be fine, not every character needs to be a spirit or freddy.
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Deathslinger isn't good, though. Largely because he can't pressure gens. Even Huntress isn't THAT good for the same reason.
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