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Easy 'fix' to Pig?
Comments
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Isn't this a deadlier version of that thing with the doors and the goat?
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It uses related logic, but the Monty Hall problem isn't the same.
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What i did was calculate the chance of it happening at least once among 4 attempts with a 40% of it being the 4th or 5th box.
what you are doing is simply calculating the chance of it coming off at any point not the amount of attempts for a different set (the chance of another RBT having the box be the 4th or 5th). In case you didn't realize all of your results are 20% which is wrong when calculating how likely it is you get the event accruing at a certain attempt among all attempts.
So for the RBT coming off on the 4th or 5th box among 4 different RBT's at least once the math is this (1- 0.4)^4 = 0.1296 (12.96%) (not happening) so 1 - 12.96 = 0.8704 (87.04%).
For it coming off on the 5th box among 4 RBT's at least once the math is (1- 0.2)^4 = 0.4096 (40.96%) (not happening) so 1- 0.4096 = 0.5996 (59.96%)
I'm right mate all your doing is calculating when it comes off in X attempts, I'm calculating it coming of at a certain point at least once among X tries.
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- Her dash should be increased, she's literally useless in medium loops. 2. She shouldn't be slowed down for crouching,she cannot attack. 3. Removing traps shouldn't be that rng, make it work like Trappers bear trap, where the more u fail getting off your reverse fear trap, the higher the chances.
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Yes, I calculated the odds a Survivor will have to remove a trap on the 4th or 5th box because you said, and I quote:
there is a 90.91% chance that a survivor will have to remove the trap on the 4th OR 5th box
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and i admitted i was wrong HOWEVER the chance is actually only 3% lower so my point still stands.
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I'm not referring to the percentage. I'm referring to the fact that you were referring to the odds of a Survivor taking a trap off in 4-5 boxes. Not the odds of at least one Trap needing 4 or 5 boxes to be removed.
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I should have been more clear that it was at least once among ALL RBT's not the chance of a single RBT being taken off on the 4th or 5th box and even then the number is still high at 40%.
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1) Now that I understand what you are actually saying, 87% chance of at least one Trap being taken off in 4-5 boxes is MORE than reasonable for one of the add-ons that adds a box. The add-on has to do SOMETHING.
2) It's still in the Survivors favor for them to not have to search 4+ boxes, even if it is not HEAVILY in their favor.
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The addon combination is a problem as it is outside the survivors hands that is my point it is unfair there is no skill just luck.
the ONLY other addon that kills survivors is myers tombstone and at least that has counter play with lockers and he has to actually get right up to you.
This addon combination makes it so more than likely at least once in a match a survivor has to remove it on the final two boxes and as said/proved with logic if the pig interferes that survivor will more than likely not have enough time to survive.
This is why it is unfair/unreasonable and at the very least tampered timer needs to be changed. I won't suggestions as to what it should be but this combination is basically equal to huntresses IR hatchets with purple belt and it is agreed that that needs to be changed. I do agree that all addons need to do something but that alone doesn't justify this unfair combination.
Lastly it doesn't heavily favor survivors it slightly favors them as they have a 60% chance of it being the first 3 boxes that is defiantly not heavily favored.
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I disagree on it being a problem. Again, the Trapped Survivor can very easily have extra time to search the boxes if the timer doesn't start immediately. If it does start quickly, then that is entirely due to the actions of the Survivor team. Not bad luck or poor balancing or whatnot. It is someone on the Survivor team making a conscious decision to start the timer.
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since the devs balance around 4 solo's and solo's rarely care to 99% gens because of a trap and they can't communicate the addons to each other, as well as the fact that it's outside their hands by a pure balance standpoint no it is a problem.
No addons should just be like "hey! your the unlucky one time to die! Oh the pig found you and wont let you use the box just once yeah you're totally screwed".
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That sounds like a problem with the Survivors making bad decisions to me.
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This is the same thing as plague it's a choice it's not something obvious and more often than not you should finish the gen
what if the killer has ruin? then what?
this isn't one of the things were survivors need to "get good" or "learn not to do that" especially when you don't need to do so if the pig isn't using this combination and solo's can't just say "DONT DO THE GEN SHE HAS X ADDONS".
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It's pretty obvious that finishing the gen starts the timer. Sure, you may not know what add-ons the Pig may have, but if you want to play around the purple add-ons, simply wait a bit to finish the gen to give that Survivor the chance to search a little. If the Killer has Ruin? FIND RUIN. Especially since you should know very very easily if the Killer has Ruin.
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Point was this is a tactic that is unreasonable to expect all players to follow
for that reason no and with ruin the point is survivors will finish their gens.
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I refer to my previous statement about it sounding more like a problem with Survivors making bad decisions.
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And i'm saying that no it's not a bad decision if anything it is a bad decision to 99% verse a pig UNLESS this addon combination is used and among solo's they can't communicate that.
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why exactly is it unreasonalble?
All players know they are up against pig. It'd really take some very, very rarely occurring combination spawnpoints for boxes, gens and players, and of when someone gets a rbt to cause a situation in which a gen pops just when the trap goes on without the people on the gen having been aware its a pig.
Thus they should always be able to at least 99 a gen, find ruin (you only need one person looking) and redo the bit of progress lost on the 99ed gen.
The unreasonable thing to do would be to power through the gen and massively increase the chance of losing a teammate.
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it's unreasonable because you have no control over the other players actions and good luck convincing the player base to not finish gens along with them remembering the advice in the first place.
take plague obviously don't cleanse but whatda people do especially solo's?
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I'm trying to follow your train of thought here:
you are saying it is unreasonable because upon knowing they are up against pig players will definitely avoid applying a tactic with the highest survival chance (99ing gens and only popping them when no one has a trap on)? Are you saying people will ALWAYS apply their genrush MO no matter what? (I mean, looking at them crying bloody murder over Deathslinger and PH cutting chases short... you kinda have a point, but still)
And as for plague: Is not cleansing really better? they changed how the pools function after all, so by now the better tactic would be try to cleanse as far away from the rest of the group as possible.
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Imagine if survivors could take a perk where the killers objective, hooking, severely inhibited them. Like, If you hook someone, a random generator starts repairing itself at 200% speed. Good luck working out which one it is, you have to check them all and kick it to stop it repairing itself.
That's what this is. You're asking survivors not to complete their only objective to win the game.
Everything in this game centres around generator progress. Everything the killer does is to stall it, everything the survivors do is to progress it, in each case, as much as possible. So yes, it's unreasonable to expect other survivors to not complete gens, especially if there's any gen pressure perks like Ruin on.
It wouldn't be so bad if the timer to remove the trap wasn't so tight. If a gen pops just as the survivor is unhooked or recovered and able to head towards a box to disarm the trap, they barely have enough time to make it to all four boxes. Maybe if each unsuccessful attempt to disarm the trap set the time back 5-10 seconds, giving you some additional grace period to reach the next one without being forced to sprint in a straight line right through the killers path.
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If you want to say it's reasonable go make the entire player base not finish gens when a RBT is on someone in fact go play a few games as pig and see how often they 99% gens put on ruin and it will rarely happen.
Your right that it's what players should do but they don't do it and you can't do anything as a solo to change that.
when it comes to play styles no matter what you say it's relevant because there are always people don't care or know about X thing in this case not finishing gens. This is not a case of bad player decision it's simply an inability to change how others play especially when it comes to this since it's actually better to finish gens if this addon combo isn't being used but then we get back to a lack of info.
Because you can't change how others play or think as well as the fact that they don't know to not finish gens or even if the combo is being used it is therefore unreasonable to say it's the survivors fault.
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nope. still can't follow your logic.
The problem does lie with people so stubbornly clinging to that genrush MO that you by now can use it against them.
Like, imagine if we'd get a killer who's TR permanently shrinks if a gen is finished when someone's hooked or if some other unique thing is active or something... people would STILL genrush and then complain that the mechanic is OP and unfair
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screw getting tunneled to death, my problem with pig is that rng decides my fate cuz 80% of the time for some reason its ALWAYS and i mean ALWAYS the last box. i never get it off on my first, second, third, always the last one
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exactly therefor finishing gens isn't the wrong choice and addon shouldn't be balanced around such a thing.
All im trying to convey is that tampered timer with an extra box isn't fair since you have no control over anything it's purely luck if you die.
In the first place you shouldn't die because other solo's are just doing the objective and not doing anything wrong.
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exactly therefor finishing gens isn't the wrong choice
I don't agree with this logic. If the fear is someone dying to a potential Tampered Timer, then not waiting a bit first to pop the gen IS the wrong choice. The only way this truly backfires is if Ruin is in play, and Ruin is something you should very easily be able to detect almost as soon as the trial starts.
In the first place you shouldn't die because other solo's are just doing the objective and not doing anything wrong.
But they are doing something wrong if they are putting you in that position that you don't want to be in. It's like saying you shouldn't 99 an Exit Gate and then blaming Blood Warden for trapping you long enough to die to the EGC.
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I'm not really getting the entailment here. Pigs rarely tunnel people with traps on; the timer pauses when in a chase or downed.
Although statistics can only tell so much, I doubt her kill rate is directly attributable to her base kit (which is pretty weak; stealth and ambushes are a breeze for experienced survivors), and even tampered timer/jigsaw's sketch has a 1/5 chance of getting a kill. I think that it's more due to the players who play her. Much like nurse, who attracts many players because of her reputation for being incredibly powerful, her kill rate is dragged down by players who don't know how to play her. Similarly, Pig is both fun and a challenge to play. But, we'll never know.
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If you think pig isnt fair to play against. Play at rank 1 for gods sake
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It still sounds like it survivor problem too. Survivor's advantages over the killer is that their's 4 of them and that they work as a team. You just asking to have all the advantages ( in this case, working on the same objectives.) but not the disadvantage (being drag down by other mistakes)
That just how any team game work, Sure DbD lacks an in-game communication system, but in this case, the hub gives them all the information they need. the hub tells them you have a time bomb on you. If they decide to ignore it they just took a bet for the team, faster gen for the potential cost of a life.
When you think about it, the core gameplay for survivor works like that. If you get a teammate who's bad at chase, he just won't buy you as much time as a decent survivor would, The only way to help him buy more time is for someone else in the team going for a body block or trying to trick the killer into chasing them. In both cases that cost gen progress since you get 2 people off gen. At the same time, if someone is a god at looping killer and he buys you time to do 2 gens, your whole team get the benefit.
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It's.... fascinating.
Each time anyone here, on twitch, anywhere, brings up issues with any given killer, GENUINE issues on why the killer is easily exploitable etc, people will, like clockwork, come out of their holes crying 'just git gud, learn 2 loop and do gens'... unless it's a killer that isn't broken but meddles with their MO, then they rage and rave and rant how a killer must be removed from the game entirely.
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"Pigs rarely tunnel people with traps on."
You can I have VERY different experiences.
Pigs SHOULDN'T tunnel people with traps on, but I find they almost always do.
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I mean, if the pig going to waste her time on a single survivor that just good new for all the 3 other survivor who get more time to focus on gen. Focusing on a single person Mean less people need to heal, so less pressure
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In an ideal situation with an experienced SWF, sure.
But other survivors tend to circle around on the outskirts of a hooked/tunnelled survivor waiting to rescue, wasting time, and ultimately throwing the game once the tunnel survivor dies and they become the next target.
Killers tunnel and camp because it works.
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and then devs and community managers say that 'sometimes camping/tunneling/slugging is necessary' and when you go and ask 'when' you'll have a chucnk of the community get all preachy about how important the 4k is and how you have no skill if you get less than that.
the community.... is a mess
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mate obviously no matter what you won't agree and honestly the reasons you don't agree feel like you think the players all play in a perfect way and always know what to do.
As stated in a 4 solo que which is what the game is balanced around survivors can't give information such as addons or tell other players to do something. As stated is isn't a bad choice to finish gens whenever the combo isn't used you yourself even said it's rare to get RBT kills even with the combo which i find hard to believe as i always got around 1 or 2 kills.
Then finally we get to this. No matter what, you shouldn't die from an action that has nothing to do with you and is meant to progress the game.
this isn't something even worth arguing over finishing a gen at any point in the game shouldn't mean potential death for a survivor, NOED is understandable as that should be expected and it's a perk that honestly is more common then the combo. But the addon combo isn't as well known and even if it is people will still do dumb things. you. should. not. die. from. that. type. of stupidity.
that is the only argument you have as to why this combo shouldn't be nerfed literally the only argument. with numbers i proved it is very likely that at least once a survivor will be close to death with the timer on the 4th or 5th box and with logic i have proven that a single encounter with the killer will kill those survivors. the only thing you have to counter that is "well survivor shouldn't finish gens" which is bs because as said the game is balanced around solo's and you have no control over those players actions and it's bs that your getting potentially killed because of another players choice.
Im done arguing over this not to mention even your one point has a flaw that cannot be overlooked when it comes to talking about balance. players are not prefect and are not knowledgeable on ever game mechanic not to mention they could just not care and that can kill you. Regardless all the things i have pointed out as to why this addon combo needs to be addressed outdoes your single point which is outside the players control.
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1) I am not saying players need to play perfect. I am saying that players are responsible for not screwing the team over. Not expecting Tampered Timer is not an excuse under any circumstances because you are responsible for playing around certain things.
2) Hey, if you can die because someone opened the gate too early, you can die because someone popped the gen too early.
I disagree that your points outdo mine.
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you can disagree but my points have more weight.
you're too idealistic, the fact that you think 99% gens should be used in every pig game when in reality they are rarely used shows it.
Post edited by AChaoticKiller on0 -
you 99 gens against PIG. not every game, good lord.
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just what do you think i meant? XD
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I am admittedly getting confused now who in the thread things it's a good idea to genrush against pig and who doesn't. I'm just glad this isn't tumblr, because I dread what random, scary scientific and/or historical facts I might have learned by now.
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For the record this is about the tempered timer + extra box not her default RBT's.
my whole point is that addon combo needs to be addressed.
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What ranks do you play at? I don't get pigs often, but the pigs I do get tend to be pretty good.
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Or survivors could adapt if they don't want to risk someone getting 4 or 5 boxes. It's almost like playing in a team also has drawbacks....
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There you are the weekend times not online and here it really goes off, I hope I have read and understood everything, but also have a few comments:
If you bring one more box into the game, the timer of the RBT increases moderately, so it decimates the success a little that the purple addon brings you, which shortens the timer very much, unless you have bad luck as a survivor and really have to run all boxes.
Which brings us to the survivor gameplay: You see someone get an RBT open and then finish off your gen right away? Then it's your fault if that someone comes under stress and none of the really not good addons from the pig.
But it's that survivor genrush mentality that makes it easier for pig. Even though I have to say that I don't get many kills from the RBT - that's not what they're for, they're just there to buy time and if the survivor prefers to sit down with a trap on a gen and pull it off, then it's his problem and not the killer's.
I see this myself as a survivor again and again: Yes, there are annoying and strangely playing killers - here as an example the pig that chases me with a RBT, preferably already one activated. That makes no sense, I'm already busy and if you're a sensible pig, you know that. Then you find someone who just has the time for generators.
But as a killer it's exactly the same: survivor stands in front of me at the box with not activated trap - instead of hiding. Ideally, even his teammate led me right past him. Then I hope for you that you have DS with you, otherwise you're at least lying on the ground.
On one hand players don't seem to take Piggy seriously as a killer because it's too weak, one of the bad killers etc - but then there are these posts where yes she is so unfair? That doesn't make sense to me.
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''On one hand players don't seem to take Piggy seriously as a killer because it's too weak, one of the bad killers etc - but then there are these posts where yes she is so unfair? That doesn't make sense to me. ''
Pig is a noob crusher that why. It like the pre rework Freddy, it strong against people who use the ''usual'' strat to counter M1 killer, it the same issue people have with Ranged killer, bad survivor complain that they are strong in chase. Strong survivor know that you need to make them waste time aiming at you near wall and cover rather than looping them like other killer.
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not a 'noob' crusher. A killer with an ability that cuts straight through the 'do gens and loop the killer' MO so many people have on survivor side, not just on low ranks. In fact, on low ranks it seems more likely that people will stop doing gens once they know that activates the timer.
And on killer side you often have the '4k at all costs as quickly as possible' approach. Immovable object and unstoppable force...
Pig isn't unfair as such. But the combination of factors makes tunneling extremely tempting and, well, easy, so that's one of the things that's ought to be discouraged by the game. cause heaven knows some players won't play fair.
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I wouldn't say she is a noob crusher. She also works very well in purple and red ranks.
I can only speak for myself and I tunnel rarely, never camp and get along with her just fine. I have more problems with Clown or Trapper and have to work harder to secure my kills.
Exactly. We want to get through all the gens in 5 minutes and escape! The mantra of most survivors.
That just doesn't work for pigs.
I like to play with her and against her. They are usually exciting rounds.
Even if there are black sheep among the pigs who irrationally tunnel people with the beeping RBT.
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And I have played against pigs that will actually ignore trapped survivors if they see the survivor is trying to stealth to the boxes or got sandbagged.
And major kudos to those pig players that ignore trapped survivors when a gen popped. (had two or three of them so far, and they still got their kills in fair and square)
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To me, it makes no sense to chase someone with an activated RBT. He has other things to worry about.
I think you can always just stay with yourself and play the way you want others to play. Whether they do it or not - you have no influence on it.
Maybe we'll see each other in the fog.
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