Easy 'fix' to Pig?
Various threads have been dedicated to Pig's high pick- and kill-rate.
They pretty much all fund two main factors:
- A lot of pig players will tunnel someone with a trap on
- a lot of survivors will pop gens when someone has a trap on
The easiest solution should be:
If you get a fancy hat, you can not do gens, but you can also not get knocked down. Sure, this doesn't stop your teammates from doing gens, or you from abusing it to bodyblock (after all, you still need to get that thing off), but I'd say at bottomline it could make Pig games a little fairer?
Comments
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i agree
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How does the "not get knocked down" thing actually work?
No collision ?
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Well you already can't really do gens with a reverse bear trap. You will die. Remember, the timer pauses if you're in chase.
I think to simply fix pig would be to remove the jigsaw box rng element firstly as well as make the timer pause off pig's proximity so she can't proxy you in stealth until you die. It's hard to make reliable data of a killer that relies so heavily on good rng.
I've had countless games where I've been forced to remove the trap and died on the fourth jigsaw box. Is it my fault? Of course not but that says the Pig has killed me statistically.
Pigs ambush is a great power is very versatile on short loops. I think Pig's biggest issue is the slow crouch speed. It isn't fast enough. Buff that.
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Yeah no thank you. That's a bad idea. Pig's far more than fair for low tier killer.
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that you'll die rarely stops people. that's the thing, I guess: people are so set on 'doing gens' that they just... ignore ?... all factors that say that it's a bad idea.
whether they are the ones with the trap or a teammate. it's bizarre to behold.
As for the 'not get knocked down' @Pilot : I'd say you simply can't be put in the dying state from being injured. you can still get the injured state, maybe.
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You won't possibly escape though? Like do you mean when the trap hasn't activated yet? As soon as one gen has popped you're 100% forced to take it off.
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So pretty much you have mettle of man 24/7 and no wonder how many times you get hit you won't get downed?
That doesn't sound quite balanced to me.
If there was no collision nothing would stop me from going behind my teammate slightly off just enough so I get hit and not him.
Idk, seems like there should be a little more to it.
Also, Pig can't do anything to stop me from getting this off my head then, since she has to ignore me whenever i'm near a disarm box. She can't slug me.
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I don't think having a passive power that has a 1 in 4 chance of certain death while you're incapable of doing anything productive for 2 minutes counts as 'fair' personally. Maybe it is once you average it out, but if you're the person who has to try all four boxes and then just barely misses the timer on the last one...
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Basic timer has more than enough time to seach 4 boxes each in one corner of the map if you do it efficently. On average you'll get your trap off on 2nd-3rd try, 4 is an extreme (that still doesn't kill you baseline) as is 1 which you can even remove under 30s, such usefull power.
Besides traps, pig doesn't have anything going for her, her stealth is slow and obvious, dash attack is pretty bad anti-loop tool so she's as good as M1 killer without her traps.
Whenever I face pig, I'm extremely unlucky, almost always needing to do all 4 boxes and I still died to her traps like less then 5 times since she released. If you die to the trap, it's completely your fault or the pig hard tunneled you which is a death sentence from any killer even without a trap on.
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Pig Main here:
Piggy has already been nerfed and is insanely rng dependent. If I'm unlucky, they all get rid of their trap at the first box and I won nothing.
Why shouldn't a survivor get damage if they are wearing a RBT? Survs are already so brazen that they run to a box in front of me and calmly want to take off their mask and then I'm not supposed to knock them out? If they're lucky, I'll let them lie, but at least one should hide or wait until I'm gone. After that I'm a tunneler, even though they run me into the knife?
I often feel reminded of the movie Tucker & Dale.
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1 in 4, or 25%, isn't an extreme scenario by any stretch. I've never been able to reach the fourth box in time. Not without sprinting between them, which usually means getting caught.
I have on rare occasion actually been saved by being caught though. I was once on my way to my third box, as I got there the pig caught me, downed me and hooked me. That paused the timer, so that when I was eventually rescued off the hook, I ran to the other free box, the fourth one, and I made it in time to remove. Had the pig just left me to try that third box and fail, it would have been certain death, by carrying me to the hook, she reduced my travel time to the fourth box just enough that I just barely managed to get there in time.
I think they need to increase the timer on the traps by about 15 seconds. Or, every failed attempts gives you an extra 5 seconds, or something like that. That's not a huge difference, and it still takes you out of the game, not doing gens, rescues, etc. for the duration of the timer.
The rest of the Pigs skillset? Yeah, not at all OP, probably a little too weak, but it's that 1 in 4 chance of certain death that really kicks you in the nuts. You feel utterly powerless. I'd happily trade a nerf in traps for a buff in other ways. Faster crouch speed, longer duration on the ambush dash, whatever, just lose the RNG certain death.
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It's not that they brazenly try to take the trap off in front of you and expect you not to do anything. It's that they literally don't have a choice. If they hide and try to avoid you, the trap will kill them.
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Yeah well see, there is your problem. You walk towards the boxes, you need to sprint if you don't want to die to the timer.
If you're afraid of the pig seeing you, just take smarter route, you have time for that, I do it and never had issues. And even if the pig sees you and chases you, what of it. She's basically M1 killer and the timer stops during chase. If you're easily getting caught by her, you need to work and your looping and positioning skills.
Increasing the timer that is already generous is and unneeded nerf to pig who could actually use some buffs. No good survivor team ever struggles against a pig.
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No that was with sprinting, that's why I got caught. Some maps are huge.
No good survivor team every struggles against any killer, the game is SWF sided. Not everyone is an elite teabag commando.
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Even on huge maps, the boxes basically never can spawn so far away from each other to make it impossible to remove the RBT. You're just taking inefficient routes.
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I took straight lines.
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RBT's are rng this is true, that's pretty much the point of them. They're not there to get kills with, that should be incredibly rare - the whole point of the RBT's are to slow the game down and put some pressure on the survivors, it does get them off gens - if someone pops a gen and has an active trap, you can be sure they're not going to be working on the next gen for example.
The main problem that comes in is when the person who's playing pig actively tunnels the person wearing the trap as they are just focusing on the player who's unlikely to be doing gens and giving the other survivors free rein to get the generators completed - that's what seems to happen the most in matches I'm in at least.
I do think her add-ons need to be looked at, but her base mechanic I think is fine where it is right now.
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What am I supposed to tell you. If you evade the pig and run straight to each boxes in effecient manner, you are supposed to get the trap off every time, it's designed like that.
If you still somehow manage to fail at that, the issue isn't in the traps but in you.
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This is a ridiculous statement.
It's not working like that, so it's not working as intended, so it needs adjusting. That's what feedback is for. Not gaslighting people in the name of blindly defending a broken system. "It's not broken, maybe you're just insane."
Like I said, just a few extra seconds could make all the difference. So that you don't have to sprint in a straight line in order to make it. The traps are a great mechanic for pressuring survivors off gens, but it already comes with a risk of death. Forcing players to literally sprint right in front of a killer to not instantly die, thus ensuring they become an easy target and die anyway, isn't a fair mechanic.
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Yeah, well you're stating that the traps manage to kill a survivor with 25% chance of sucess each time. As I said, I am very unlucky with trap RNG and I still almost never die to them.
If you want to actually prove that they're broken you need proof, not shouting in the air how OP they are. Record your gameplay and show us how it's impossible to get the trap off if you need to do all 4 boxes so that we can analyse your gameplay to see if what you're saying is true.
Otherwise, you're just making baseless claims on a killer nobody has any serious issues with, meaning nobody will actually listen to you, much less devs doing anything about it.
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It's not ALWAYS impossible, but it is often impossible, due to RNG map placement, tiles, and killer presence. If you're forced to run up to the killer, because they're in your path to the next box, and you have no room to manoeuvre because as you said "if you sprint and take an efficient route there's no problem" that's a broken scenario.
That implies that if you don't sprint and/or take a less efficient route, then there IS a problem, and sometimes that's unavoidable because you could encounter the killer and certain death that way instead.
You really think nobody has an issue with this? Despite this being the third thread on this subject in the last couple days?
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Unfortunately, in most cases this is not true. If someone walks past me with a beeping trap, I'm fair enough to ignore him if gameplay allows me to. But, if the trap isn't even activated? Then why not try to hide for once?
The whole thing happens the other way around, too. When I play Survivor, I save someone from the hook, the mask isn't active, so you can check out the boxes in peace I want to heal you with WWL so you don't run noisily across the map and then get rid of it in your mask, so why does almost every Survivor run away headless?
Pig doesn't need a nerf, people need to learn to go play it. Whether as a killer or a survivor, I see a lot of people just going headless and not knowing how to face it.
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It's the idea that the match must be 'won' as quickly as possible.
I mean, look at people ignoring lit totems but complaining about ruin/devour. look how many killers with insta-down abilities slug before the first gen popped. etc
It's all part of a big problem the game has and which the devs have already admitted they won't tackle. :/
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Yes, this is a major problem. Survivors prefer short matches and don't care about the extra tasks that are there. That's why we always have NOED discussions here in the forum.
And the fact that customization doesn't seem to be wanted. The gameplay needs to be adjusted for each killer, that's just the way it is. Everyone has killers they don't like, find OP (my Achilles heel is Bubba btw) and want changes to.
But Piggy's traps are not what they were in the beginning and I think, both as a killer and a survivor, that she is fine the way she is currently. But that's just my 2 cents.
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1 in 4, or 25%, isn't an extreme scenario by any stretch. I've never been able to reach the fourth box in time. Not without sprinting between them, which usually means getting caught.
Are you sure that this is not just an issue you're having personally? 25% is not even close to the rate of RBT kills in my personal experience. That would basically mean that i get on average one RBT death every game, which most certainly does not happen.
From my experience, the maps where death by RBT are more likely are maps that are already problematic because they too beeg. So the solution isn't to make the RBTs more generous; it's just to shrink those maps.
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another potential 'fix' would possibly be to actually give out more points for the secondary tasks. maybe
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I don't like this, It nerfs pigs stalling as well as her lethality when honestly it isn't a bad thing that it's that high.
her traps are too RNG and unable to down survivors as they do this means they don't fear the pig at all.
People need to understand that the only thing pig needs a nerf to is her addons that make it impossible to get the RBT off within reason.
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This might sound counterintuitive, but the only add-on that I think can make it consistently unreasonable to remove an RBT is Amanda's Letter. Because it decreases the number of boxes down to two and gives the Pig a 50/50 chance at being able to body block the correct and guarantee a kill.
Any other add-ons that might create that problem only do so in the largest maps that are already a problem for a different reason anyways.
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No tampered timer with an extra box makes taking them off unreasonable
5 boxes with 2 minutes to do them all and it takes 12 seconds to attempt to remove a trap.
this means that you have a total of 60 seconds of travel time, an average 12 seconds to get to each box if you have to remove the trap on the last box.
If the pig intercepts that just once and the box that would have gotten your trap off would be the 4th or 5th you are more than likely going to die, hell even if their is just really bad pathing/ a large map your more than likely died.
There are 4 RBT's that might end up killing a survivor, it is very likely that at least one of these will do a survivor in.
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You only have a 20% chance of having to search all five, though. The odds are still in your favor that you don't even have to search four boxes. And this is before you factor in the extra time you may get from getting to search boxes before the timer starts.
Again, this is only really going to be an issue on maps that are large enough that they need to be changed anyways.
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it's not 20% tho since the box that takes off your trap is predetermined and even on small maps this often kills survivors, i know this cause i used this like 10 times in a row and often got at least 1-2 kills a game.
regardless in terms of stats you could say that it has a 40% chance to be the 4th or 5th box, as said you have 4 RBT's that is a good enough chance to commonly see a survivor die to a RBT a game especially if you interact them even just once.
Also again, this is still very likely to kill even on small maps because you only have an average of 12 seconds to get to each box and you are more than likely not being optimal with that time.
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If this was about a single RBT a game doing this i would agree with you but there are 4 chances to be unlucky and nearly a 50% chance that you will be unlucky.
those odds are good enough to argue for this to be unreasonable.
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You misunderstand what I mean. I know how the boxes work; I'm saying that natural odds of chance dictate that you only have a 20% chance of having to search all five boxes. You have a 40% chance of having to search four or more. Also, I use these kind of add-ons all the time. I know what they're capable of. They don't kill that often even in the best-case scenario.
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Then we different experiences because i nearly always have a survivor die to this and again as said it's likely they die even if it's the 4th box meaning a 40% chance.
We haven't even discussed large maps using this, put on Haddonfield and that survivor is pretty much dead even if you don't intercept them if it's their 4th or 5th box. incepted them and that might as well be reduced to the 3rd box.
Regardless this is still unreasonable as you can't expect survivors to get to each box in 12 seconds and not get intercepted by the pig, by your own stats it is indicated that there is a 40% chance they have to get it off on the 4th or 5th box.
i do agree that maps play a big part in this but even small maps this is highly lethal.
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Then we different experiences because i nearly always have a survivor die to this and again as said it's likely they die even if it's the 4th box meaning a 40% chance.
That does not line up with my experiences, personally. I'm not saying I NEVER get RBTs, but they most certainly do not line up at a rate of one every game or even one every other game. And that's with using her purple add-ons for many, many games in a row.
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As said then we differ but i have numbers that indicate it's very likely for survivors to die to this and when abusing this i often killed survivors with it even when i didn't do anything to them or by just hooking them once if i ran into them.
Numbers don't lie and you cannot say that it is not unreasonable to only have 60 seconds of travel time for up to 5 interactions with 4 chances that a survivor will have an interaction remove the RBT on the 4th or 5th attempt.
Also do you not agree that it is reasonable to be chased at least once while you have a RBT on and still have enough time to remove it? How much time do you think is taken away by one chase? because getting downed or hooked can easily take away 20-30 or so seconds which is half of the time that survivor has to traverse the map unless you think they can get to each box in 6 seconds assuming it's the last 2 that remove the RBT?
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I'd say the percentages support the notion that Survivors are still favored in terms of # of box searches, and then there's the fact that a Survivor doesn't have to worry about the clock until a gen pops.
Also, I'd say it's reasonable because of the ground the Pig is giving up by employing such a tactic.
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It's only reasonable if the pig NEVER messes with the survivor, the survivor is very optimal with their time, AND the map isn't big such as haddonfield.
Because most survivors are not optimal and most killers are not kind and will at least attempt to slug that survivor it is NOT reasonable.
There is also the fact that a gen can pop at any time which can include when that survivor is incapacitated which is very common.
Therefor and i don't want to come off as an *** but your wrong it's not reasonable.
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Sorry, but I don't agree with that.
A survivor not being optimal is on the Survivor, and a gen popping is on the Survivor's teammate. That's two things that are within the Survivor team's control that can heavily mitigate the Tampered Timer (an add-on that does nothing the majority of the time it is used).
I will certainly agree that map can pose a problem, but those maps that do pose a problem for this are problematic enough that they should be changed anyways.
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they don't have control of the killer and they most likely didn't pick the map and if they did it's probably big.
Also plenty of survivors will at least heal which takes 8-16 seconds so they do that and the box is the last no they are dead.
you can disagree but i have logic and numbers that say otherwise, therefor unless you can provide better reasoning you are wrong.
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they don't have control of the killer
Okay. That isn't an issue.
they most likely didn't pick the map and if they did it's probably big.
Big maps are a problem with the maps, not with the Pig add-ons being discussed.
Also plenty of survivors will at least heal which takes 8-16 second
Exactly whose fault is that?
you can disagree but i have logic and numbers that say otherwise, therefor unless you can provide better reasoning you are wrong.
The numbers say that each individual trap has over 50% chance of the fifth box not even mattering. That's a point in my favor, as far as I can tell. And again, you have extra time depending on how long the Survivors give you to finish their gen and start the timer. If the timer starts before you have a chance to look, that's ENTIRELY your team's decision. The Pig cannot do ANYTHING to force the timer to start.
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Also i went ahead and looked into it, there is a 90.91% chance that a survivor will have to remove the trap on the 4th OR 5th box, just one interception by the pug will more than likely kill them.
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What? That's...no. That's not right. Where is this math coming from?
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cool be unreasonable to protect the combo IDC
I have numbers that say there is a
90%87.04% chance a survivor will have a box get the RBT off on the 4th or 5th box at least once in the trial as well as numbers to indicate that a single encounter with the pig will kill them if the 4th or 5th box is true.Therefor it isn't reasonable and as for it being their fault they don't know your tampered timer addon so yeah don't blame them for healing.
i have reason, logic, and numbers to indicate that this combo is not fair so you can disagree all you want i have more backing.
Post edited by AChaoticKiller on0 -
The 90% chance thing makes absolutely no sense. I don't know what your math is, but it is not even remotely accurate.
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i was a little wrong but pretty close
it's 87.04% i went to the wrong thing.
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No. That's also wrong. By a lot. Explain how you are coming to this answer.
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dude im just trying to find a calculator for this as i don't remember how to do this.
also it's not like it's uncommon to see a survivor have to use the 4th or 5th box within 4 tries with your RBT's.
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Ok i looked into it more
In order to calc it first you find the chance of it not happening
so (1-.4)^4 then the answer is the chance it wont happen is 0.1296 in other words 12.96%
therefor the chance of it happening at least once is 87.04%
so no i was right my second response.
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Let's assume five boxes.
The odds of you finding the correct box on your first attempt is 1/5 (20%), because you have five boxes and only one correct one.
This means you have 4/5 chance (80%) of picking the wrong box on your first guess. Once you pick a wrong box, that box can no longer be selected, so the number of remaining boxes to guess from goes down to four.
The odds of guessing correctly from four boxes is 1/4 (25%). When you multiply the 4/5 incorrect first guess by 1/4 correct second guess, this means that you have a 4/20 or 1/5 (again, 20%) chance of finding the correct box from the initial five boxes in exactly two guesses.
For three boxes, it's 4/5 guessing wrong the first time, 3/4 guessing wrong the second time, and 1/3 guessing right the third time. 4/5 * 3/4 * 1/3 = 12/60 = 1/5 (20%).
For four boxes, it's 4/5 * 3/4 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 24/120 = 1/5 (20%).
For five boxes, it's 4/5 * 3/4 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/1 = 24/120 = 1/5 (20%).
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