Reworking the spirit
The problem with the Spirit is that she gives no indication as to when she is phasing. This makes it very unfun to play against her.
In Otzdarva's community-made patch notes, he talks about the spirit and the ideas people came up with. The suggestion to rework her was to make her reveal herself to the survivors every second or so during her phasing. This way, it could open up for some actual mindgames and predictions while also allowing survivors to tell when she is phasing.
This would also make it really skillful to play the spirit because you have to rely on good reads and predictions when phasing for only a short time while survivors can see you.
It would also be really cool and fix the main problem people have with her. She could probably receive a buff or two in order to compensate for this nerf, but I think this is a great idea.
Then there are her addons which also need to be looked at and changed. For some reason, the duration addons also increase recovery speed as well.
I can't think of any other changes she would need to compensate for this rn (too lazy), but maybe if there are any flaws you guys can point them out.
Comments
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I like the idea of giving her glimpses of her current location, but I feel like that could be too strong for survivors or not enough depending on many situations. For instance, if you’re on one of those loops at Autohaven where you could see over, the survivors will be able to see where exactly she is, but if you’re at shack or any tile with large walls, you won’t be able to see glimpses if she knows how to hide them.
It would certainly make her more bearable to play against but I feel like directional audio can give fair mind games for both sides at almost every tiles.
As someone who has played a lot of Spirit, she’s in desperate need of a change and I’m glad to see people brainstorming ideas for her.
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That suggestion would immediately kill her.....but I guess that's the point. Just make her extremely easy to read so the survivor gets the advantage at every loop like the rest of the killers.
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I would rather they bring back her breathing-while-phasing bug, gave her an animation for entering phase, and tweaked her movement/recharge a bit.
Edit: just to keep in the theme of using your ears as much as your eyes.
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It wouldn't, at loops it would require lots of skill to play around tiles which is another complaint about spirit, making her take more skill to play.
Edit: Ok, I guess it would since one second is pretty short.
Post edited by Yords on0 -
Constant hearing of where she is though is stronger than glimpses.
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I think if the audio was inconsistent enough, then it could work.
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Use Spine Chill and Iron Will and you will see how easy is to play against her.
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Honestly I would be against the glimpses. He whole point of spirit is that she cant see you and you cant see her so i dont really think it would be good to have the survivor get glimpses of her while she cant get glimpses of them. Id rather her have periodic breathing or something to stick with the whole "listening" theme
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once again it's killer needs lots and lots of skill....but for survivors just shift + w, god pallets and safe loops.
and you wonder why nobody wants to play killer. Why bother when you have to sweat to win while you can just have a chill game with friends on the other side?
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This idea is still bad, even when hearing it another time.
The problem with your, and therefore Otzdarva's and his entire chat's, idea is that it basically makes Spirit have no "mindgame potential". This is a purely one-sided nerf, "every second" is Too Much Information. Makes Killer shack super easy to consistently deny Spirit of anything, one second is more than enough to know which direction she is coming from, and a double back is impossible without add-ons and can be guessed because of how long it's taking for her to reappear. Standing still in phase wouldn't work because she'd be revealed every second. Don't forget that you, presumably, want her to remain unable to see Survivors, since you mention buffing her but previously said you want "good reads and predictions".
110% Killers are supposed to have strong powers that help with chases, your idea makes her power only good for mobility. This would make her drop several tiers.
I'm willing to bet that this is another Survivor biased person, based off of how this is almost purely Survivor favored, destroys a Killer's sole ability, mentions a buff to compensate (but, of course, doesn't know what said buff would be) as a handwave and uses buzzwords like "skill", "counterplay", "good reads and predictions" (btw you just admitted because of this that predictions are fine when the Killer has to do it. You literally want Survivors to not have to think.)
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Don't forget that Iron Will is good versus basically every Killer with headphones, not just Spirit. Helps a lot with outplaying at loops and doing tight, risky doublebacks at objects to buy time.
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Well said! 🏅
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Spirit is fine now. You just have to learn how to play around her. How come it’s otz fan base that are really dumb? Try watching true talent instead and you might learn a thing or two
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But that is bad design, right now you cannot see her when she phases. This takes out any fun in chases and takes out any real counterplay as well. It would fit her as well since she is a ghosty kind of killer, it would also be awesome to see.
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Ok, well I can see how one second is too short, what about 1.5 or 1.7 seconds and the glimpses only show up for .6 seconds?
You seem a little rude in your last paragraph btw, just assuming I am an entitled survivor player instead of offering constructive critisicm with valid suggestions.
I play survivor and killer very 50/50 btw. And no I don't want survivors to just walk over the spirit either, I wanted to see what we can do with this idea to change spirit to be more fun to go against but still strong.
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There is no playing around a killer who gives no information to survivors when she is using her power to gain distance and a hit on them. There is only guessing against a spirit who has good headphones.
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Play the game more. I can guarantee you're not in red ranks if you think there is so counter play to spirit
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Spirit is strong because she doesn't play Dead by Daylight, kinda like how Nurse doesn't play Dead by Daylight, but in a smaller way.
Spirit ignores giving survivors some information to work with, and Nurse ignores.. well, everything. That's why they're so strong. Every other killer has to "play the game".
If you make Spirit also have to play the game, you're inexorably gonna lose your super tournament killer. Which is the problem, because a lot of people don't think you can win by playing the game, and are gonna get real upset that she'd have to.
In an ideal world, Spirit and Nurse would be forced to play the game, but the game would be much more evenly sided with buffs to killers in general and solo queue, but.. BHVR.
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You have windows, pallets, you can juke your scratchmarks, you can hear her footspets while in phase, you can use iron will and make 0 sounds (even breathing can't be heard), you can use spine chill to know if she's aheading to you.
Average Spirit players will have a really really tough time to catch you.
0 counterplay is Nurse.
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A common suggestion I see is that similar to how she can see grass move while phasing, Survivors can see it move from her while she's doing her thing accompanied by slight directional audio of it too. Similar to how Spirit rewards the player for paying attention, Survivors can get a reward (or rather avoid a punishment) for doing the same.
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I am a red rank survivor and I have 2000 hours on this game...
There is no real counterplay to spirit because there is nothing to react to. Counterplay is playing against what your opponent is doing, but spirit gives no information to the survivor when she is phasing so you have nothing to react to. All you are doing is guessing. if she phases around a pallet you can run to the other side, drop it, and maybe stun her, but that is just guessing.
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That would be nice, and I would like that. Same for other foliage of course.
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None of those will really matter if the spirit is using headphones though, any spirit player who watches out for these things. When using a pallet or window is just you guessing if she is phasing. Iron will can work to an extent, but she can still see grass and hear footsteps if her volume is loud enough.
The footsteps thing is pretty unreliable in most cases since there is lots of noise and most people don't know or can do anything about it. If you hear it you are probably going to get hit no matter what you do.
Spine chill can also work sometimes, but only sometimes. And a good killer will realize you are running it.
Nurse is a weird one, but even she has counterplay. She holds up her fist and makes noise when about to blink. This is information you can react to as survivor and make it harder for her to hit you; it's counterplay. Breaking LOS and being unpredictable are the only counters to her though, and her power is still pretty OP ngl.
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Or just have her white noise override chase music when she's phasing. That way you know she's phasing, instead of having a guessing game.
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Red rank survivor. Try playing killer in red ranks like I do and you quickly learn all the counters to each killer and therefore improve your survivor gameplay ever further. its a shame after 2000 hours you haven't learnt how to counter play spirit though.
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I.... I am a killer who plays in red ranks as well... I play this game very 50/50....
I already mentioned how the Spirit has no real counterplay, so I am just going to copy and paste that comment here.
"There is no real counterplay to spirit because there is nothing to react to. Counterplay is playing against what your opponent is doing, but spirit gives no information to the survivor when she is phasing so you have nothing to react to. All you are doing is guessing. if she phases around a pallet you can run to the other side, drop it, and maybe stun her, but that is just guessing."
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You're pretty presumptious implying someone with an Oni profile picture and nearly three thousand posts on this forum doesn't know how to play the game as Killer.
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duration addons don't "increase" recovery speed they just designed it in a very weird but roundabout way, for example spirits power has charges = to its duration
base duration is 5 charges, and base recovery is 0.33 charges per second
but when for example you use a recovery addon you add 0.033, 0.066 or 0.100 charges per second to her recovery so the total time is 13.5, 12.5, or 11.5 seconds to fully recover
but when duration addons are included they increase total charges and change the charges per second to match so
5.5 second duration has a base .366 cps
6 has base .400
6.5 has base .433
8.5 has base .566
9 has base .600
9.5 has base .633
10 has base .666
They don't reduce recovery speed they just adjust both values to make total cooldown time the same, aka you use 50% of your power it takes 7.5 seconds to recharge regardless of duration addons
so its not exactly an increase it just takes less total power that recharges at the "same" speed
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Ah, thanks for clarifying, it was confusing reading how it worked.
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problem with iron will is most ppl play stridor with her so it almost makes that perk useless.
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I'm sorry you have wasted over 2000 hours in the game and still cant counter play a killer that isn't hard to counter play. Get good and you wont need to cry on the forums so much
So? I have a clown pic and his the only killer I haven't prestiged an icon is an icon it doesnt have to mean anything dork
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I would love to see you explain how she does have counterplay since you must be better than me.
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So you want a killer that can't see survivors be seen by the survivors when she's phasing? What a terrible idea. Whats next have her not be able to hear survivors when she's phasing? She has counterplay. More than enough so you can loop her if you're constantly falling for the stand still mind game its your own fault. If you really hate spirits run iron will. In the ptb when she was released you could hear her voice when she was phasing. That made her so weak you could immediately know where she was so you could drop a pallet early making her too easy to loop.
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Lets take a step back and look at the bigger picture
- Most people agree only 2 killers are viable against good teams
- Very few people are left wanting to play killer, and this number seems to be shrinking as time goes by
- Survivors (and a designer who has their head in spreadsheets rather than the game) decide the solution is to nerf more killers, Freddy, Spirit etc
Meanwhile no mention of fixing some of the problematic maps and new issues have been introduced in the reworks. All this talk about killers needing more skill, but nothing gets said about making survivor take more skill, i.e. nerfing bad maps that allow shift+w and god loops to occupy minutes of time.
How long do survivor queues have to be before you decide that maybe it's best to give a little back?
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If you can't form your own proper arguments with valid points, then why bother commenting?
I did watch a few minutes of the video, but I eventually stopped since it was simply untrue. What Tru3 is telling us to do is bait the Spirit into making a mistake. This can work sometimes, but a good spirit will look out for that and catch on, even if you mix it up. Even if you don't get hit, you are just lucky because the Spirit messed up. Bad spirit players are the reason people think spirit has counterplay.
If you drop the pallet on the other side and slow vault (a very common strategy), then you are just going to assume that the spirit will go around. That is guessing if she will phase over there or not.
Like I said, counterplay is something you can react to. When a spirit stands still, you don't know if she is phasing or not, so you take a guess and hope it works out which is not counterplay. You can try predicting her, but a good spirit will make sure that she still ends up hitting you. No matter what you do as a survivor, you make sound even with iron will, so any spirit with good hearing will catch you.When she starts to phase, you have zero way of telling if she is phasing or standing still.
In essence, there is no real counterplay against spirit.
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Agreed, map design is a serious issue with this game.
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Yikes maybe dbd isnt for you then...
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Got nothing logical to say? I believe we are done here.
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I was done with you ages ago. I'm just wasting your time by this point and it seemed to have worked
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So if you are wasting my time, it must mean you were never here to make a real argument. Or are just pretending to have never been planning to have a real debate this whole time so you don't look like a complete..... Anyway, have a nice day.
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Use your ears she makes a very distinctive noise when she phases Iv played her alot at red ranks and against incredibly good survivours and lost many of game. I think a rework would her harder to play and give survivours a way to easy gane. She ain't that hard to play against either if you know what your doing.
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Oh I have an argument I just don't feel like spending hours trying to get the point across to you when you have already made up your mind. Linking True's video saves me a ton of time and he even did it in paint so you can understand it but if you want to believe spirit has no counter play then keep crying while other players learn how to counter her and beat her consistently while you ######### on hook. Or like I said play her at red ranks and see how consistent you get 4k's but obviously you wont do that
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My comment got deleted when I edited it...
TLDR: Trues video saved me having to explain it and he did it better than I could over these forums but obviously you have already made up your mind about Huurrr Durrr no spirit counter play and you can keep thinking that while other players learn her counter and win consistently against her while you ######### on hook. I really dont care if you dont wanna improve your gameplay but its kinda sad after 2000 hours you still cant counter play a spirit
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There 22 killers (soon it will be 23) and you saying use 2 perks because maybe you will get Spirit. WOW, great idea bro.
And no she need counterplay without any perk.
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One second is too short? Did you read my comment? No, glimpses shouldn't exist period, it's TMI. You need to think of something else and stop listening to Jund and Otzdarva.
And yeah, I WAS being rude/harsh without insulting you. Because I'm right, and you pulled out the "I play both sides" card, like there isn't only two sides to play in this game, making this not valid. Not to mention that you think I said "Survivor main", not "Survivor BIASED". Which you are, and still clearly are, because you're doubling down.
And of course, you're doing the same "BUT A GOOD -INSERT KILLER-" goalpost move that people in Otz's server do as well to justify nerfs: Balancing the game around the 2% of players who spend the time to learn a killer or understand how they work.
"And no I don't want survivors to just walk over the spirit either, I wanted to see what we can do with this idea to change spirit to be more fun to go against but still strong."
"I don't want survivors to just walk over spirit... I just want survivor to just walk over spirit by implementing a nerf that destroys any chase potential. :)"
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So, you don't know the definition of mindgames either, I suppose?
People who look for things to react to with their eyes or ears will obviously struggle against Spirit because they're playing wrong. You need to get into the Spirit's head and predict what she's trying to do. This is almost always very obvious if you play Killer, you can guess where she's going to move to consistently. That's LITERAL mindgames being done.
It's as others said, you don't know how to approach Spirit because she makes you think differently, and you are reliant on your eyes and ears, hence you struggle against Spirit.
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Ok, well just because you think you are right doesn't justify being rude.
I may have misinterpreted what you said, but I am not survivor biased. I like to think of myself as a very 50/50 person when it comes to this game and yes, me agreeing with this main idea may make it seem otherwise, but I made a mistake by setting the glimpses to just a mere one second. I think you should really think about how glimpses of the spirit while she phases could be healthy.
Try commenting on my second post in case you somehow feel a little better with the changes.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/236920/reworking-the-spirit-part-2#latest
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In hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have been so rude, but this is the 3127802431702137th "nerf spirit" topic that gives a nerf idea to "make her more FuN" which destroys Spirit. I'm honestly tired of debunking the same claims repeatedly and unmasking the person making the suggestion as someone who is biased while clearly explaining why.
I also already read, considered, and refuted the entire suggestion. It's "healthy" for exactly one side, which reveals bias.
And yes, you are survivor biased because of the reasons I already stated: A massive nerf that favors Survivor and shows a complete lack of understanding of the killer being nerfed, the typical buzzwords, doubling down on things.
You may "like to think of yourself' as a 50/50 person, but this nerf specifically shows that you don't understand what you're talking about and that you're focused on one side's "fun". There are certain nerfs and buffs that immediately reveal if someone is biased, period, and I can specifically name some of these and I have a feeling you WOULD agree with me:
-wanting loops or pallets removed altogether
-wanting a top tier killer buffed even more with no nerfs
-wanting a major perk for one side buffed to the heavens or nerfed into the ground with no compensation or actually acceptable explanation
-wanting the killer to not be able to m1 or use their power
-wanting a top tier killer nerfed into the ground with no buffs
And these may sound ridiculous and like nobody would make them, but it gets my point across: Proposed buffs and nerfs that don't consider the other side in the slightest and are focused on making one side better even if the other side suffers. That's bias.
You mentioned "buffing Spirit", but everything else showed that you don't understand how Spirit works and how this change would kill her chase potential and make her pretty much mobility only.
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If you are tired of these posts and, then don't read them or comment on them. And this still doesn't excuse you for being rude.
You keep saying I don't know what I am talking about, but you aren't even giving yourself a chance to think about this "glimpse" feature. You are just saying I am survivor-biased without actually giving my second post a chance. This first thread was understandable, but my second one you already said you wouldn't look at but maybe you should. I do agree that I came off as survivor biased this thread, but you can't seem to get past that and instead assume that I am just someone who is completely survivor biased. I mentioned buffing spirit to compensate but didn't provide some options, my mistake. If you would just read my second post about this, you might think differently.
Also no, I do not agree with any of those listed points. You are just being rude and condescending now. At least read my second post about the new ideas I brought up instead of just telling me how bad this is and how survivor biased I am (even though I have made several posts that can help you see that I am not survivor biased).
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