DS Suggestion
Please make DS not spawn an Obsession but rather create/relocate one upon use just like Nemesis. That would destimulate the horrendous amount of camping that is happening RN in games that start without an obsession.
Comments
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Just run an obsession perk.
I heard of this one that helps with tunneling and camping, it's called "Decisive Strike".
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Why can't DS be undetectable like NOED?
Both perks encourage fun games:
- DS: Punishes Tunneling
- NOED: Punishes Fast Games
I don't understand your thought process, allowing DS to be detectable will allow killers to know what games they can and can't tunnel. That's like making NOED light up all totems if it's being used, so that survivors can know what games they can or can't genrush.
Any perk that encourage fun games should be undetectable, period.
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This thread isn't about NoED but ok I'll respond.
Their level in power is very different and just saying "well they both punish something" is oversimplifying a lot. Not knowing if there's NoED when it only effects the last minuet of the match is different from not having a clue about DS that effects the entire match overall.
NoED takes place after the gens have been rushed and its also not a strong perk, its just super annoying and can maybe get the killer 1 hook/kill (more only if the survivors allow it). It also only takes effect during the (usually very short) endgame, you don't play the whole match around it to nearly the same degree as DS. I don't consider NoED good enough at being something that encourages survivors not to gen rush, since they still do it anyway and then can just pop the 1 totem. You don't need to do 5 totems, just 1 at the end if you really want.
DS interrupts the tunneling before its over to give you a massive benefit and can lose the killer multiple gens, if not the entire match. Same as before since the stun wasn't touched.
You don't get the "fear" of NoED even if you don't have the perk because NoED isn't that good. Survivors don't just stop completing genes to do totems just to stop a potential NoED. Just having an obsession will make killers reconsider tunneling anyone whether they have DS or not and change their entire gameplay for the entire match.
NoED doesn't stop survivors from gen rushing just because its a threat, DS can (and often does) make a killer not tunnel just from the threat of it. Because DS can easily wins games, NoED usually doesn't against a competent team.
TL;DR NoED and DS are on completely different power levels and don't really compare when it comes to affecting the overall game. Just run DS if you wanna benefit from deterring the killer from their optimal strategy.
Stop being so entitled that you want the benefit of a game changing perk without equipping the perk in 1 of your teams 16 perk slots, or any of the other obsession perks.
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I'm bringing up NOED because it's the killer's equivalent to DS:
- They both encourage fun games and are really powerful (killers can't tunnel, survivors can't rush generators)
The fact you believe killers should be allowed to know whether or not survivors are using DS (based on the obsession mechanic) is a double standard when you know survivors have no clue if the killer is using NOED. Both perks should be undetectable.
How would you feel if survivors could tell by a game mechanic that the killer doesn't have NOED? Probably terrible. Well, us solo queue survivors suffer from the obsession mechanic giving away that no one on our team has DS, thus allowing killers to tunnel freely.
To add on, NOED is not a weak perk because it has two effects:
- It will force survivors to cleanse all totems if they don't want to get hit by it, giving you ample time.
This is probably why you think NOED is a weak perk because you don't see how much time it wastes for the opposing side, especially if you're in solo queue.
- Strong endgame potential if survivors don't cleanse all totems, allowing you to potentially bring the game into your favor.
This is what you experience directly, but when you don't, the perk instead slowed the survivor down.
All in all, if it encourages fun gameplay, let the perk be undetectable. With the recent nerf to DS, would it really be the end of the world if killers had to respect DS?
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DS is so influential that the sole absence of an obsession status changes a killer playstyle. I don't want to run obsession perks every time just to make sure a killer thinks twice about tunneling.
The best 2 options for the community are either always spawning an obsession despite the existence of obsession perks (which would benefit killer and survivor with the score events associated to the status) or making DS not spawn one in the beginning of the match.
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The Obsession status reminds killers that DS exists and so killers play around it, not outright tunneling a survivor out of the match.
You want killers to play around it rather than accidentally eat it. Why? Because once the survivor uses DS, it's gone. The killer now knows that particular survivor has no defense against tunneling. The other survivors may have DS, though, so the killer has to play around it for them.
Anyway, if you get rid of the Obsession status or make it so there's always an Obsession, I doubt you'll see a decrease in tunneling. Why? The whole reason players are asking for this change is to get the benefit of DS without running it, which means fewer players will run it. Killers will feel safe tunneling off the hook because the chance the survivor has DS will be so small that it's worth just taking the risk. And like I said, once the survivor uses DS, its protection for that survivor is gone.
tldr You're asking for this change so you don't have to run DS; therefore, it will be reasonable for killers to just assume survivors don't have DS and they'll usually be right.
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The situation you're describing may as well be the one living currently in matches with an obsession. If a killer sees an obsession they try to play around it either by slugging, alternating hooks or just plain eating the DS in the beginning of the match.
This suggestion is to address the issue of matches spawning without the obsession status. That alone changes their mindset to "I can tunnel should I want". This may will NOT fix tunneling, but will discourage.
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But I'm saying, it won't discourage tunneling. The whole point of requesting either no obsession or always an obsession is so survivors don't have to run DS. Therefore, the easy assumption for killers will be that the survivors aren't running DS.
Right now, if someone brings DS, there's an obsession and a killer who's on the fence about tunneling will usually play it safe. If the obsession status were changed, if someone brings DS, the killer won't know it. A killer who's on the fence about tunneling will take the chance, because apparently DS is now used so little that the probability the survivor has it is super low. One survivor bringing DS will no longer protect the entire team; it'll give one survivor a second chance if the killer happens to tunnel them instead of their teammates.
Right now, one person brings DS, all four survivors get the benefit. No obsession/always obsession, only the survivor who brought DS will get any benefit. DS would no longer discourage tunneling in the first place; it would only punish killers when they do tunnel.
And as it is you don't even have to bring DS to get its benefit of discouraging tunneling. Only one survivor has to equip any obsession perk.
I'm the kind of person who plays it safe. I assume survivors have BT, I try to remember to bait out DH. As survivor, I try to counter BBQ and Nurse's Calling. But if this change went through, if it were me playing to win, I'd treat DS like I do Haunted Ground: The chance that lit totem is Haunted Ground is small, and once it's used it's gone, anyway, so I might as well take the chance. Like the existence of DS makes tunneling risky, the existence of Haunted Ground theoretically makes cleansing totems risky, but HG doesn't change the way I play.
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WARNING: long post since I'm trying to break this down even more. Read at your own risk.
- "It will force survivors to cleanse all totems if they don't want to get hit by it, giving you ample time."
I already addressed that, you can just break one totem at the end. You can choose to break all 5 but its not necessary.
- "This is probably why you think NOED is a weak perk because you don't see how much time it wastes for the opposing side"
Just comparing time out of both perks, the DS stun alone will gain as much time as 1 totem (5 x 3 survivors on gens, 15). So if you can run the killer for 20 seconds after (easy if you're not a potato) you just gave your team the same amount of time as it takes to break all 5 totems, makes that like ~30 if you factor in the time to check the spots (totem spots are easy on most maps). Once again, you don't need to even do that, you can just break one at the end. DS can save you easily over 40 seconds, and that's for 1 DS, let alone multiple.
I know how much time it takes up, its not much. You're really overestimating its value. NoED is not strong, its just annoying, that's why most killers don't run it once they know better. DS was the meta perk, NoED is not even meta because its not strong. DS was in every game, NoED was in less than half (in my experience).
Afaik the only people who call NoED strong are biased survivors or inexperience/low skill players, most players agree its just ok or a little on the weaker side from what I've seen. My opinion is its just ok, but annoying.
It won't win you a game you would have otherwise lost usually, DS will.
- "Strong endgame potential if survivors don't cleanse all totems, allowing you to potentially bring the game into your favor."
Strong endgame if the survivors can't cleanse one totem during endgame, and that's if they want to stick around for the save. Strong endgame isn't viable since you throw the entire match to get if if that's what you build for and its such a short duration usually. Will work against a bad team or survivors who overstay their welcome, but that's about it.
The only time I can think of it being an issue is with killers who are already a problem like Nurse or Spirit because they are notorious good users of exposed. But they would win without the perk easily.
- "They both encourage fun games and are really powerful (killers can't tunnel, survivors can't rush generators)"
Survivors can rush generators because NoED doesn't stop them. It'll punish them in the end maybe but at that point the games over. DS gives the survivor an entire extra hook state in the middle of the game and will lose the killer multiple gens.
Again, no one doesn't not rush gens because of NoED. People did not tunnel because of DS. As someone who plays both sides, NoED is not really a factor most of the time. My team rushes gens, I do totems if I see them (usually the only one doing them) or I just rush gens as well and break the 1 totem at the end.
If I have NoED equipped (which I haven't in like a year now lol) it didn't usually do much of anything except get me maybe 1 down because it broke instantly after or the survivors left. There are much better perks to run.
I never though "Hmm, we shouldn't do gens because what if NoED". No one does that. At most I'll check to see if the chased survivor is injured already for the last gen pop. If we want to "encourage" anti-gen rush the perk needs to do much more, but because the perk feels so bad to go against, I don't see that happening.
NoED doesn't help with the gen-rush it just might give you a pity down.
Once you get good at the game, NoED is a small threat. Annoying, yes, but not really a threat. The perk is basically "play the whole game down 1 perk to get 1 down at the end maybe". By the time NoED comes into play the game is over.
- "The fact you believe killers should be allowed to know whether or not survivors are using DS (based on the obsession mechanic) is a double standard when you know survivors have no clue if the killer is using NOED. Both perks should be undetectable."
You know what's a double standard? How survivors get a big notification for a ton of perks the killer is running while the killer gets notified of none. At most they get a hint, and that's only if they themselves aren't running an obsession perk. Imo, all perks should be undetectable as well as all status effects. Figure it out why you got this or that. I'd be on board with that change.
Make all hexes undetectable, make all exposed undetectable (outside of powers like Myers or GF), make all statuses undetectable. Killers have to put together what perks survivors are running all the time, meanwhile survivors get it told to them on a loud speaker. NoED is the exception rather than the rule, and it still tells them once someone gets whacked with it.
Alternatively, we could even the playing field and also give killers a ton of info on which perks the survivors are running with visible timers. I'd also be on board with that. It needs to be evened out one way or the other.
Ah, but no, we just want DS to not even give a hint that its in play anymore.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
Essentially, "I want to benefit from the perk, but I don't want to run the perk"
Then why should you benefit from the perk? Especially such a strong one. You already benefit if someone else runs it, now we want no one to run it but it still benefit from it just existing?
I disagree, I don't think those options are good for the community/game, especially when we already have a lack of killers.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
Ok, I'll explore in depth this discussion.
1-the obsession status existence: current affairs.
There are many bits of indirect information in this game that reward attentive players. If you start a match and see a Jigsaw box, you know the killer is the Pig will try to perceive better your surroundings. Same for a pool of devotion, or distant sound of a loud chainsaw. A killer can have a grasp of a gen progress just by looking at the pistons, etc.
Now, consider the presence/absence as a variable that provides both killers and survivors with information. Both know that someone is using a special perk/addon. Now, let's explore further scenarios:
1.1- SQ Survivor: If you as a SQ survivor is not the one who brought it, chances are the killer is using STBFL, Rancor, Nemesis or PWYF or another survivor brought DS or OoO. If you brought one of the latter perks, the you gained no extra information. <== this is were the majority of the player base stand RN.
1.2- SWF: In the unlikely probability that no one not even the killer brought an obsession perk, your team can still coordinate rescues and protection hits, but let's be honest here SWF tend to sweat on their builds and secure multiple obsession perks (OoO DS).
1.3 - Killer: to get access to the presence/absence of the obsession status (you know, the one that changes their playstyle) a killer must NOT use obsession perks. ATM the killers that benefit the most from STBFL, Nemesis, and PWYF are mid to low tier. Doctor, Slinger, Bubba, Demo and others cannot afford to have that piece of information and are inherently in disadvantage compared to high tier killers that are not reliant on those perks. The current state of affairs just widens the rift between killers that rely in obsession perks and those who don't.
2-Considerations on DS
There is a reason as to why DS is almost synonymous with obsession bc it's by far the most popular survivor obsession perk, powerful, potentially game changing, and abusable by both sides. No longer survivors can progress the game while keeping DS active, but killers can still tunnel if no one has it.
It's a small sacrifice to bring 1 perk and protect 4 people, but you need to consider that:
2.1: SQ players cannot to orchestrate builds. Console players and crossplaying PC players cannot communicate in the pre trail chat.
2.2: It's hard to coordinate antitunnel measures without voice comms. Protection hits, Facecamp rescues are difficult to overcome and DS alone is not an insurance for the whole team.
2.3: Sticking a perk limits variability. I don't wanna play 50 with only 3 perks bc DS needs to be there to make the killer think twice.
2.4 MOST IMPORTANT DS is effectively behind a paywall. Until 2019 it showed up 3-4 times a year on the shrine, but during the entirety of 2020 it was absent only to show up 1 week this year. Not everyone can afford to purchase a DLC and licensed characters can only be purchase with real money currency.
3-On the proposed Changes to obsession status
Not spawning with an obsession reduces a piece of info that distinguishes good experienced players, but I believe that is good for the game. It's unlikely that me or you know the outcome of this change. The permanent looming threat of DS might indeed encourage killers to tunnel, as you say, but I'd rather that than games in SQ without an obsession. Also, I don't want to few punished by playing an M1 killer that relies on STBFL.
On a different note, the possibility of always spawning an obsession brings consistency to the game. To trace a parallel, totems spawn when no Hex perk is used and survivors will cleanse them for ulterior motives, but mostly to score points and prevent the LOOMING THREAT of NOED. Finally, not spawning an Obsession prevents the acquisisiton of Score Events associated with the status.
4- Summary
The presence/absence of obsession brings valuable information that can be used by killers against the majority of the uncoordinated player base mostly due to the strength of a single survivor perk and it has been increasingly more difficult to acquire it in the last 2 years. Furthermore, killer in mid low tiers that need Obsession perks have to give up that important piece of info.
I believe that changing the perk or the status is needed to no longer provide that data, preventing the existence of Obsession free games that allow killers to prey on casual players as well as reduce the gap between the efficacy of killers that require obsession perks and those who don't.
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DS is not the only perk that is associated with the Obsession status, it is by far the most popular bc of the rampart issue with camping and tunnelling as well as the opportunities of abuse that it offered to survivors. That last part was addressed in the update, but the perk is effectively locked behind a paywall since the end of 2019. It was in the shrine ONCE. The casual players being camped and tunnelled in SQ that can't coordinate bc even chat is not available or afford DLC with real money are the ones in the being abused.
There is also the other side of this shitshow. Have you ever considered what killers that have BIS obsession perks like Doc, Demo, Slinger have to give up just to use STBFL? Do these killers need to be dragged down the mud bc they need those perks and cannot have obsession free matches?
On both sides there are people pigeonholed into Obsession perks that are too strong and other that benefit former's need.
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Yeah I agree DLC perks are dumb but thats a selling point for the DLC unfortunately. I would like the shrine to just have every perk available for shards at all times.
I wouldn't say they're being "abused"; tunneling is known about, allowed, and intended. Just because survivors don't like it doesn't mean its "abused". As for perks, previous point. I'd be for helping solo and buffing killers to compete, but killers would have to be buffed. As is now, even a solo team can make most killers obsolete if they're all decent. The only thing keeping killers that aren't Nurse, Spirit, Hag, or Freddy somewhat playable is that there are a lot of potatoes even at "high rank". Thats why this "weak link" mentality is pushed on killers. But if there's no weak link, killers often just lose.
If an obsession is such a big downside just because of DS merely existing, then DS is the issue, not the obsession mechanic. Honestly DS was a mistake to ever add to the game imo. Tunneling is unfun but necessary for killers to stand a chance against any competent team. I'd rather they address that issue and make killers not need to tunnel to do well, then the killers you mentioned would be fine in this regard. But that's not happening.
The solution is not "ok now everyone has to deal with DS BS", if anything that'd make the situation worse. Making all killers have to deal with DS will just make all the killers "dragged through the mud".
Honestly that second paragraph showed more of why assuming DS shouldn't become the norm again.
DS is unhealthy for the killer side of the game for anyone trying to win. I could argue its unhealthy for the survivor side as well since it taught horrible habits like pulling off right in front of the killer. Now that its not abusable anymore, those horrible habits stuck around and survivors are getting punished like they should have from the beginning, and now those survivors are complaining because the way they played the game for the past few years needs to change because of one perk. Because that perk was abused and way too strong for way too long and its trying to address an issue with the core design of the game instead of reworking the design.
Tunneling is necessary because of the current hook/death system and gen speeds, and without those being reworked it'll most likely stay that way.
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For the obsession to become basekit, it should need some minor negative effects on survivors, but strong/annoying enough so that survivors dont want to be the obsession. I fancy the idea of better bl accumulazion in obsessed chases or a free mori or rancor-mori lol.
One of the "drawbacks" for DS is obsession after usage..... a.k.a. "wow my portrait is spiky now". Doesnt help that most killer obsession perks need the obsession safe and sound, DL even buffs them.
On the other hand, I definitely agree that survivors wanna benefit from DS without using it by requesting permanent obsession presence.
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Killer: to get access to the presence/absence of the obsession status (you know, the one that changes their playstyle) a killer must NOT use obsession perks. ATM the killers that benefit the most from STBFL, Nemesis, and PWYF are mid to low tier. Doctor, Slinger, Bubba, Demo and others cannot afford to have that piece of information and are inherently in disadvantage compared to high tier killers that are not reliant on those perks. The current state of affairs just widens the rift between killers that rely in obsession perks and those who don't.
I'm going to try to rephrase this, and if I get it wrong correct me:
- Doc, Slinger, Bubba, Demo etc. are mid-tier killers that benefit from STBFL, Nemesis, and PWYF
- They can't use those perks because then they'd be at a disadvantage, losing knowledge of whether or not DS is in play
- Solution: permanently take away the knowledge that is so valuable ("killer in mid low tiers that need Obsession perks have to give up that important piece of info." <- you say right here the info is important) so they can use those perks (and if they don't use those obsession perks because they just don't want to, then they lose that info about DS and gain nothing in return).
mostly to score points and prevent the LOOMING THREAT of NOED
It's mostly to score points and get a stack for Inner Strength. NOED is more of an annoyance than a looming threat. It's so seldom used that survivors usually feel secure in rushing gens and cleansing a single lit totem after if need be. Totems are meant to be a second objective and slow the game down... but they don't.
Just like the threat of NOED rarely changes how survivors play, the invisible threat of DS will rarely change how killers play.
DS is effectively behind a paywall. Until 2019 it showed up 3-4 times a year on the shrine, but during the entirety of 2020 it was absent only to show up 1 week this year. Not everyone can afford to purchase a DLC and licensed characters can only be purchase with real money currency.
The best perk for earning Bloodpoints so you can level up characters is locked behind Bubba, a killer a lot of people bought just for that perk. He was the first thing I bought... for that perk, so I could earn BP and get perks on characters.
There are six different survivor obsession perks, one of which comes on an original character, so it's purchasable with shards.
No longer survivors can progress the game while keeping DS active, but killers can still tunnel if no one has it.
Killers can still tunnel even if someone is the obsession, they just risk getting stabbed. The ones dead set on tunneling will eat the DS.
The threat of DS is the most effective thing about the perk. It's psychological. The killer is worried about getting stabbed, wasting time, oh no gens will pop all around them, so they either slug or they go after someone else. DS has done its job. If the killer picks the survivor up and the survivor has DS, the survivor gets to make good on their threat.
If there's no hint that DS is in play, then there's no longer the threat of DS to discourage tunneling. Like NOED, it'll be assumed to not be in play.
Always spawning an obsession means fewer killers bothering to play around DS, so even equipping DS won't discourage tunneling, it'll just let survivors stab the killer when it happens.
The goal seems to be to permanently discourage tunneling without the survivors needing to do anything. Right now, having an obsession in the match signals to the killer that, rather than playing optimally and getting one hook closer to winning, it may be better to leave the survivor slugged. That's big. If your teammates pick you up, that's like getting an extra hook state. DS doesn't just discourage purposeful or early-game tunneling, it means killers give up hooking opportunities that would get them one step closer to winning. Tunneling is sometimes the best or only option, and if the game doesn't want killers to play to win, it needs to either give killers something in return (right now, it requires one survivor to use one perk slot) or it needs deeper changes to its mechanics.
Personally, I think the game needs deeper changes to its mechanics.
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The issue with tunnelling is how it's actively rewarded by the current Devotion emblem system. Kill/Sacrifice/DC award 2 points no matter how you gained it. A killer that manages to get 8 hooks 0 kills performs worse than one that got 1 hook 1 kill by face camping. No wonder how they get to higher ranks by camping and tunnelling. To counter those, survivors need to coordinate repair/escape and protection hits/rescues respectively.
DS high usage is a symptom, not the cause. People use DS bc killers camp and tunnel and killers use those tactics bc they are effective and rewarded. If the Devotion system awarded partial points for hooks instead of Kill/Sacrifice/DC with bonus for interchanging survivors, suddenly killers that camp/tunnel do not perform as well and/or rise on ranks.
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Just like the threat of NOED rarely changes how survivors play, the invisible threat of DS will rarely change how killers play.
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Always spawning an obsession means fewer killers bothering to play around DS, so even equipping DS won't discourage tunneling, it'll just let survivors stab the killer when it happens.
Sounds contradictory saying that a possible DS in a current match rarely affects killer gameplay and then suggesting that always spawning an obsession will.
There are six different survivor obsession perks, one of which comes on an original character, so it's purchasable with shards.
So since the other 5 obsession perks are locked by licensed characters our suggestion for new/struggling players is to spend 9k iri shards on Zarina which has 2 useless perks so they can equip For the People to REDUCE the chance of being the obsession in the start of the match?
The goal seems to be to permanently discourage tunneling without the survivors needing to do anything. Right now, having an obsession in the match signals to the killer that, rather than playing optimally and getting one hook closer to winning, it may be better to leave the survivor slugged. That's big. If your teammates pick you up, that's like getting an extra hook state. DS doesn't just discourage purposeful or early-game tunneling, it means killers give up hooking opportunities that would get them one step closer to winning. Tunneling is sometimes the best or only option, and if the game doesn't want killers to play to win, it needs to either give killers something in return (right now, it requires one survivor to use one perk slot) or it needs deeper changes to its mechanics.
Personally, I think the game needs deeper changes to its mechanics.
The game does need deeper changes, we have to agree here. I believe this is a lot more related to how developers transmit the message of victory to players and how they reward them. There is so much dissonance between communal goals, tutorials and emblems.
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That's assuming the emblem system is the win condition. For most people who play the game a 3-4k is a win so that's the metric I'm going off until the devs say otherwise. But even in that regard tunneling is the best path.
Reworking the emblem system won't do much because most of people just don't care about emblems, they care about the kills/escapes. Right now with no official win condition, the majority win condition is a 3-4k. Just making devout give you partial points wont really do much.
You need to make getting a 3-4k viable without tunneling if you want to view tunneling as an issue, which the devs don't. I don't really see it as an issue either for that matter. If I get tunneled I just move on to the next match because I understand that's the game. The killer isn't being mean, its not toxic, its not unfair, its jut the way the game is and they're just trying to win.
Would I like it more if tunneling wasn't needed? Yes absolutely since I usually don't tunnel when I play killer because I just don't have fun doing it. I would love it if the game got catered to that style, but its not. But that's my choice to usually play sub-optimally. I would love the game to be reworked into that direction, but I really don't think that's happening. As the game is, I can't reasonably get upset for either side tunneling.
What I do have a problem with is the speed discrepancy compared to how long the killer objective takes. 1 chase for 3 gens at the beginning of the match is absurd. The survivors have done 3/5 of their objective while the killer has done 1/12. I bring this up because DS just compounds the issue by giving massive amounts of time. The reason killers try to avoid DS like the plague is because 1 DS could lose you the game, let alone multiple, when you are already playing from a losing position.
DS isn't the cause but the symptom of what? I didn't say it was the cause of anything outside of bad survivor habits and you didn't mention that, so I'm not 100% on what you're trying to say its not the cause of. If you mean tunneling then yeah, you could say it happened as a response to tunneling. Even though the devs are fine with tunneling and it's an intended thing. Although, I don't know where the idea of DS causing tunneling came from though if that's the case.
I just think DS should never have existed until they fixed the core game design of killers needing to tunnel in the first place because now you have an impossible situation where DS is there to help against tunneling but tunneling is what the killer needs to do. Thats why its been a problem perk since its creation as anti-tunnel.
It'd be like having a killer perk that blocks a gen after you get it to 30% for 60 seconds because you tunneled the gen. Its a badly designed perk that is counterintuitive to the already established core game design. Tunneling gens and tunneling kills is what's going to happens long as the core design is what it is.
Survivors are supposed to tunnel down gens, killers are supposed to tunnel down kills. Getting upset at either side for doing these things is getting upset that they're trying to win. The real problem is the core game design. No perk will ever cover up these issues without screwing the other side, it's too integral to progressing their objective.
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Sounds contradictory saying that a possible DS in a current match rarely affects killer gameplay and then suggesting that always spawning an obsession will.
Sorry, I tried to be clear but I guess it was still ambiguous. When I said "the invisible threat of DS will rarely change how killers play" I was saying that if a future change went through to always spawn an obsession, then DS would no longer be a visible threat (right now, someone running an obsession perk creates an obsession, and that obsession perk is usually assumed to be DS, thus making DS a visible threat), it would become an invisible threat and a lot of killers would stop playing around DS the way they do right now when there's an obsession.
So since the other 5 obsession perks are locked by licensed characters our suggestion for new/struggling players is to spend 9k iri shards on Zarina which has 2 useless perks so they can equip For the People to REDUCE the chance of being the obsession in the start of the match
I didn't say it was a good solution, just that at least obsession perks have more options than grinding perks: survivors get the one from David and killers have to buy Bubba. Tunneling/camping killers and SWF (both of which are complained about a lot) affect some matches, but the grind affects all players across all matches.
A lot of stuff in this game is locked behind shards and money, and everything is locked behind a horrible Bloodpoint grind. This game isn't new-player friendly at all. That's something the devs need to address, because it only keeps getting worse. More BP and shards would mean new players get more options sooner.
On another note about new players, I really think new players would have to deal with fewer camping and early-game tunneling killers if the game's tutorial were better. It doesn't teach anything about pressuring gens, so new killer players just do what's most intuitive: tunnel and camp. Get one survivor dead, move on to the next one. "Spreading the pain" is a learned technique, and it's one the game doesn't help teach at all. It's on the survivors to punish camping and tunneling by equipping perks and rushing gens. But new survivors don't have many perks, they're not good at doing gens, and they can't win chases.
Right now, one of the benefits of survivors equipping an obsession perk is to create an obsession, which is like psychological warfare against the killer. Always spawning an obsession is a nerf to survivor obsession perks. You see that as being healthy because survivor obsession perks are unfairly locked behind paywalls and weak killers would no longer have to make the choice of sacrificing beneficial strength for powerful info; I see it as taking an equippable power away from survivors and a choice away from killers. I do see the point you're making, it's not invalid. I think this comes down to what we each prioritize within the game, which is subjective.
The game does need deeper changes, we have to agree here. I believe this is a lot more related to how developers transmit the message of victory to players and how they reward them. There is so much dissonance between communal goals, tutorials and emblems.
Yeah, there's a lot about the game that needs fixing. Especially matchmaking: skill-based matchmaking would help a lot in terms of giving players a fun challenge rather than a miserable steamrolling. Better tutorials and rewards. Some changes to the core mechanics. And buffing solo survivors to be more on the same footing as SWF (without implementing in-game comms), because how can you balance killers and survivors when there's such a huge imbalance just among survivors.
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this thread went from ds suggestion to battle of the long posts
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We're rebuilding the great wall of china here :D
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Right now, one of the benefits of survivors equipping an obsession perk is to create an obsession, which is like psychological warfare against the killer. Always spawning an obsession is a nerf to survivor obsession perks. You see that as being healthy because survivor obsession perks are unfairly locked behind paywalls and weak killers would no longer have to make the choice of sacrificing beneficial strength for powerful info; I see it as taking an equippable power away from survivors and a choice away from killers. I do see the point you're making, it's not invalid. I think this comes down to what we each prioritize within the game, which is subjective.
I really like this paragraph bc you carefully acknowledge our diverging ideologies. It really comes down to removing a layer of complexity between killer/survivor dynamics that for me sounds justifiable but not for you, and that is fine. One advantage of supporting a game that is in constant development is that changes can be tested and reverted like the Bloodlust experiement or first MMR implementation respectively.
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