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Tunneling is out of control since the DS nerf
Comments
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Choosing the option that increases your chances to win is always the best solution. You don't play other games and just allow people to score goals for free or let someone kill you a few times in COD because you feel bad for them. No, you want to win and you stomp on anyone who tries to beat you. If you play a game with the intention of losing just to let someone win, you shouldn't be playing that game. No one wants a pity win and everyone wants to win. The best way to win as killer is to get someone out quickly. Whether you like it or not, that's the best way to win.
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When Iplay killer now I kill 2 and let 2 escape. We all have fun. When I play survs if the killer is going to 0k I let him kill me, and everyone have fun. Not to difficult
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That's very generous of you, but you can't expect other people to be so selfless. Most people play to win. I don't personally find it fun when my opponent gives up.
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I don’t give up. I give bps and pips for all. The game should be balance for 2k, but it doesn’t, and devs know it
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If every match was a 2k, then that's over-balanced, to the point where you're eliminating player skill.
4ks and 0ks are allowed in a fair game, so long as both are possible, and they are. I often get 4ks, and I often get 0ks. Seems fair to me.
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The problem has always been that the game delegates the solution for these issues to perks and with no real consideration for what happens in soloq. All the DS nerf has done is bring these issues to light and yes, hook tunnelling is becoming more common in my games. The highly coordinated SWF's are barely impacted by this since they're efficient with generators and tend to run perks which enhance that. Get a team of 4 solid loopers on comms, with toolboxes, prove thyselfs / Build to Last etc. and they'll steamroll. It's Soloq which gets screwed over simply because that level of coordination doesn't exist.
The idea that people have to buy a DLC character to get access to a perk (which then has to be levelled up and then unlocked in respective characters bloodwebs) is completely absurd. It's laughable when some of the more thick people on here propose that is the solution for being allowed to play the game beyond 2 minutes. Any decent killer worth their salt doesn't need to tunnel unless forced into it (at which point it's justified).
On top of that, solo players have 0 control over what other players bring or do while in the trials. People on here seem to overlook that the majority of the playerbase isn't here, on Reddit, in popular streamers discords or Twitter. If the perception amongst the wider playerbase that DS isn't worth taking, a few hundred people on here crowing about running it won't change the crux of the matter. There needs to be a proper anti tunnel mechanic because right now most of my killer games are just a boring stompfest and soloq is miserable. All this will do is increase the rate of SWF and that's going to be far more problematic than a 5 second stun.
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I don't think tunneling has gotten worse. I think because DS can't be used offensively anymore, more survivors are dying before they finish the gens.
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There is a proper anti-tunnel mechanic. A safe hook rescue, and a good play from the survivor who was just rescued.
DS is not the holy grail of perks, it does not PREVENT tunnelling, it is merely one single second chance, that gives you one free health state and about 25 seconds of extra time. You still need to be able to play well to make use of that second chance. And that's the problem, a lot of players rely on perks to take the place of skill, they play poorly, and then blame the game, or the killer for tunnelling, when more often than not the "tunnel" is the result of a bad play from the survivor who just got unhooked, or the survivor who unhooked them.
The only time a "tunnel" is solely due to the killers actions and not some mistake on the survivor side, is when the killer is camping. That means camping is the real issue, not 'tunnelling'.
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"out of control" like one game in ten. If you get better at the game you will stop complaining believe me. Oh and bring DS if you want to avoid it.
This game is survivor sided I can say that as survivor myself. So stop complaining you only make a fool out of yourself.
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It's true, most players suck and depend on 2nd chance perks to win. The real solution is for them to improve but heaven forbid if someone was told to git gud.
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I agree it needed a nerf because it was abused, and i never run it anyway because tunneling wasn´t that common, at least in the game i encountered. But since the nerf, tunneling is involved in more thatn 80% of games i play. So what now? Is one of us right and the other wrong, or is maybe the data sample for one player too small to make valid claims about anything?
But then a lot of surivovrs complain about a rise in tunneling, so maybe you are the exception, rather than the rule.
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I don't think I'm the exception. I just work very hard to look at things pragmatically and without bias. I also record every game and statistically track what I and other people do. I know it is extremely nerdy and competitive. I can't figure out how to get better if I don't understand where "I" am going wrong. I don't believe it profits anyone to worry to much about what OTHER people are doing or how the game mechanics work. I don't have power over those things. I track them so I know what issues I need to be prepared for and how to tackle them.
I can't control how other people play, so I don't spend any time worrying about how asinine it might be to Tunnel, nor spend any time complaining about it over here. I don't have any power over whether or not a Killer chooses to Camp, Proxy Camp, Slug, Herd, 3-Gen the Survivors or Mori. The only thing I can do is be mentally prepared with my own tactics to do the best counter play I can. I find that approach far more productive.
So when I say that I haven't noticed any increase in Tunneling, it is based on the statistics I track myself. There hasn't been a significant, sustained increase. There was a slight bump right after the update because (and I'm making an educated guess here):
- Many people threw a hissy, stopped running DS in protest and thus there was no Obsession and the Killer knew.
- Many people couldn't break themselves of OLD habits and immediately tackled Objectives rather seeking safety.
- Killers like Wraith (Stealth) and Blight got a bump. Stealth do ambush/tunnel more, and Blight can be everywhere.
That statistical bump was not large, nor did it last more than a couple of days. I double checked my math and things are right about where they were before. The difference isn't in Killers Tunneling more, but that people keep saying it and creates a confirmation bias. People are paying attention more and calling everything Tunneling, even things they wouldn't have done just a few weeks ago. I've not been "lucky" as you put it. I play a lot of matches, and statistically I'm running into the same things everyone else is running into.
The truth is DS is not a dedicated anti-Tunnel Perk. There is no such thing. DS was created for the color and Theme of the original Halloween Chapter. It wasn't created with any tactical purpose in mind beyond exactly what it does. The tactical use (and abuse sometimes) was created and implemented by Players. BEhavior is glacially slow to change anything, and only do it when their long term numbers show an issue. They have been watching DS for a long time and it was clear to them (and us a long time before) that the Perk was not being used in a way they intended, nor in a way healthy for the game. They took away the ability to work objectives in the Killer's face. That's it. In so far as Tunneling goes, it works exactly as it did before. That is highlighting an issue, and it isn't one with DS.
So what happened? Survivors are, as almost always, the root cause of the issue. I play both Killer and Survivor. When I first started I played more Killer, but now I'm split about 50/50 and have been or sometime. There has been a cultural change (and I blame SWF largely) in the way Survivors interact and play the game. By in large, they don't take protection hits, do safe rescues, steal a chase, or trade hooks when strategic. When I first started, I was always seeing (regularly) other Survivors jump in and take hits DURING a chase which prevented me from getting a down. This would let the other person get away. They were particularly adept at doing this when someone had been recently hooked, or if someone was on death hook. The Survivors accepted that their own chances were better to get out if they did their best to keep everyone in the game.
It was never the job of the Killer to keep people around. It has always been the job of the Survivors to work together for this purpose, and not just doing Generators and healing one another. They should be intercepting chases, taking protection hits, and mixing it up in a way that prolongs the lifespan of all involved. And they USED to do that regularly. They don't anymore, at least not most. I feel it as a Killer and I experience it firsthand as a Survivor. The reason you feel like you are being Tunneled more is because you are on your own buddy. Your teammates are not going to be there to take that protection hit after unhooking you. They aren't sticking around to make sure that when the Killer returns to the hook they follow the fresh person. Do you see where I'm going with this? This is the result of a META change, not the Perk. You are only noticing it more because everyone wants to scapegoat the Perk.
To some degree (a large degree actually) this is the result of the damn SWF. A certain percentage of the older, more skilled Players have slipped away into SWF leaving Solo much weaker for the loss. What is more the 3-Person SWF tend to treat their "Red Shirt" Solo as a disposable asset. Not all Solos are aware they are in with a SWF. All they know is they are often left high and dry. The more that happens, the more Solo (even when not with a SWF) becomes an every guy/gal for him/herself situation. That is the change. It is a negative feedback loop and will only continue to get worse as Solo and Team continue in the same Que. I'm just being realistic, and I'm following the numbers. Solos can work together with amazing ability. It takes skilled veterans and trust to make that work. Both have been diluted.
In summary, the Tunneling is the same, you are just experiencing it different and more aware of it because of OTHER factors. And increased Tunneling is going to become a self fulfilling prophecy if everyone keeps accusing Killers of doing something that they aren't really doing. At some point, more and more of them are going to:
- Say, "If I'm going to do the time (everyone assumes I do it), I might as well do the crime.
- Start to believe the nonsense here that Tunneling is everywhere and the norm, and figure they might as well.
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I think they need to come up with an intergrated mechanic to push people for going for multiple hooks, because as it stands tunneling is a viable strat and it sucks. This all stems from the DS nerf and the paradox that surrounds it, whilst the changes to the perk weren't bad the fact that less people because it's not as strong makes tunneling useful.
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Tunneling is out of control because the perk is easy to abuse as a killer. Run nurses and just look for someone healing themselves or wait till they tap a gen.
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None of what you've said changes the fact that soloq gets ######### on as a result of the nerf. Please spare us the "safe unhook is anti tunnel", we both know that's nonsense. If you have a mobility killer, on a smaller map, traversing back to the hook after a rescue is easy. it's only on larger maps where getting away safely is easier to do. It also takes nothing into context regarding map layout or hook position. Maps like Azarov's or the junkyard maps in general are easy to see where unhooked survivors are going.
Of course DS doesn't prevent tunnelling, because it never did to begin with. The entire same argument can be made against killers, that too many people relied on hard tunnelling someone out regardless of whether the situation called for it. Hell DS isn't even a true 5 second stun, it's more like 3 seconds of clearance due to the drop animation and that ignores a lot of the killers powers in relation to catching back up and ending the chase (assuming you don't slug to build additional pressure). This also still doesn't factor in that the person on hook has absolutely no say in the matter regarding being unhooked, nor available resources around the hook (which the remade maps have colossal deadzones)
Proxy camping is one thing, but tunnelling the person off the hook has absolutely increased. The idea as killers we don't have autonomy in choosing which targets we go after is laughable. Hook tunnelling is and will always be 100% on the killer.
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They have integrated mechanics, quite a few in fact. The chief ones are called:
- Looping
- Other Survivors
The major problem is this tendency to misidentify Tunneling. You aren't getting tunneled near as much as you think you are getting tunneled. For example:
- Killer returns to the hook and finds someone doing an unhook that has placed the hooked Survivor between themselves and the Killer. When the Killer runs up and hits you as you come off the hook, that isn't tunneling. That is an unsafe, stupid rescue where your teammate sandbagged you; the only question is whether it was on purpose or just due to being an idiot.
- The Killer suddenly runs into the person they just hooked and they are not at the hook. It could be anywhere, as close as the next tile or on the other side of the map. The Killer didn't follow you from the hook, they just ran right into you (or you into them). You aren't being tunneled. You are just unlucky or stupid.
- The Killer sees you on an objective or healing someone and runs up to hit you. You aren't being tunneled just because you were the one most recently on the hook. You are being hit because you are unlucky or stupid.
*I could go on for a LONG time detailing all these situations. Tunneling was defined as the Killer picking ONE Survivor and chasing them (almost exclusively) until dead. It didn't, traditionally, mean that anytime someone get chased or on the hook twice in a row. That is blaming the Killer for one's own bad luck, bad teammates, or stupidity. Basically, people use the term incorrectly constantly, and create a situation where EVERYTHING is Tunneling. Hell, I've been accused of Tunneling even when I hooked two other Survivors BEFORE I put the same person back on the hook. What was their justification? Hell if I know?
Most Killers simply take the the most convenient, easiest target that presents itself to them. If the Survivors do a poor job, and that is the exact person I did last time, that is on them. There are countless ways to avoid getting picked twice in a row and they mostly depend on Survivors, not the Killer.
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I've been doing lots of rounds of survivor lately and I can confidently say that 90% of the times I've been tunnelled is soley because my teammates insist on unhooking me infront of the killer without BT and they just down me immediately afterwards. Very rarely does the killer go out of their way to actually tunnel me out of the game. When I started using DS again that issue mostly corrected itself and in the situation they tunneled me after the DS I was able to buy enough time for several generators to be completed anyway. Take it with a grain of salt but I think DS is still pretty fine and does it's job when it needs to and that being tunneled is almost always the result of idiot teammates making really dumb plays for the killer to capitalize on, if anything the lesson is this: Bring your Borrowed Time people.
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That's not a win. That's a tie and it isn't fun for killers to barely kill 2 people. Giving a freebie to a killer is like saying, you suck but here you go. No one wants that. It's why a lot of killers run NOED. What is fun for you isn't fun for others. Having the state of mind that 2 kills is fine every match as killer is already not good. Killers use to have to kill 3 for a pip and 4 for a double pip. They changed it because survivors didn't like being sweated down each game and face camped. This new mindset of a tie makes everyone happy is flawed. No one is "happy" because they busted their ass for a tie.
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The thing is, i keep stats myself, and my experience is different than yours. But thanks for explaining to me why my perception of my statistics is wrong.
Here is a link to a thread i made a year ago so you know i dont make this up.
Also, while i see the need to improve yourself, the stats are important to find unbalanced mechanics and to adress them, or see if it works out when they are adressed.
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DS was never a good anti tunnel perk, it was just abusable, and that made killers scared to chase recently unhooked survivors because they could be punished for it.
now it's not as abusable, so SWFs stopped using it as much, so killers don't have to worry about recently unhooked survivors BMing them as much as they used to.
it's not an issue with the perk, more of player mentality.
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Exactly. What we need is a Bootcamp for Survivors which focuses on "definitions," "tactics," and the key importance of Safe Rescues, Protection Hits, tactical Hook trades, and so on. Killers aren't getting dirtier or statistically better. Survivors are just getting more self-involved and less interested in working as a team. The SWF have kind of DONE this to Solo. It is unfortunate, but true. Without a mindset and play style change by Survivors, they might as well buckle in and get ready for a very bumpy ride. It isn't the Killer driving the car though, it is them by committee.
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a "good tutorial" if you would
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What an selfish way of thinking, we need less people like you playing the game
Edit: if you really think like that, you should not only improve as an gamer, but also as an person in general
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Well that's good for you. Just because you haven't noticed an increase in tunneling doesn't mean other people haven't <3
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- It doesn't matter how far away the killer is when I get unhooked. They will stop what they're doing and head straight to me. Getting a safe unhook is irrelevant.
- People shouldn't focus on wins. Killer or Survivor. DBD is built on a grind. That's what I as well as anyone I know who plays the game have come to know. Especially with BBQ rewarding NOT tunneling a survivor.
- Stealth is gone. Doctor and Plague exist. And so do a metric ton of detection perks. Stealth was killed off long ago.
- Being first is one thing. But being first should NEVER mean you just don't get to play the match.
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Tunnelling has increased massively. I would be shocked if the devs aren't keeping stats on the number of survivors being rehooked within 60 seconds of their last hook.
Tunnelling has increased but I have to give some credit to the killer community. Even though it's increased I've definitely not seen them tunnel as much as they could in some games.
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All I see here is a bunch of bullshit excuses.
- Bullshit, You didn't leave the hook fast enough, or you sprinted somewhere unsafe and left scratch marks, or the survivor who unhooked you vanished and didn't even try to take a hit when it was obvious the killer was coming straight back. It seems survivors never take responsibility for poor play, it's always the killers fault, survivors just want the exit gates opened for them.
- Bullshit. Matches are there to be won. Bloodpoints are a reward for good play. Bloodpoint Farming is frowned upon.
- Bullshit. All the best survivors in my games are the ones who don't get found. Doctor and Plague are 2 out of 24 killers, and both have counters.
- Again, most 'tunnels' are due to survivor error as previously mentioned. If you don't get to do anything at all in a match it means A. you were found first so you weren't well hidden and B. the killer was intent on CAMPING, not just tunnelling, as real tunnelling on behalf of the killer doesn't happen without camping as well.
I don't camp and tunnel, I've previously mentioned I specifically take anti-camp perks like Devour Hope and Furtive Chase with other obsession perks. I will still go back to the hook after the unhook notification IF there's no other survivor closer to me at the time, and will always go for the unhooker. But the amount of times the survivor who just got unhooked runs right into me and the unhooker vanishes is ridiculous. You'd think it would be 50/50 but no, the rescued survivor always leaves the scratch marks and the unhooker never wants to take a risk.
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Not my fault you never play survivor.
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I play Survivor more than Killer these days. I get tunnelled a fair amount. It's nearly always my fault, and I can recognise it as such, because I have experience with both sides, and I suck it up instead of getting triggered by it.
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I don't think wanting to play the game I paid for is considered "triggered". I'd hope that everyone who bought the game would want to actually be able to play it.
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You are playing. You are also losing. Accept your mistakes instead of blaming others.
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The entity has spoken.
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So being tunneled, something that can't be countered, is my fault? Sure dude.
Ya hear that guys! Killers don't tunnel. Survivors just tunnel themselves.
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It can be countered, that's the whole point!
Getting tunnelled is mostly the result of making mistakes and making yourself a target. The cases when it's not are the minority, and are obvious, because the killer is facecamping.
Survivors job is to survive, not run in front of the thing that's trying to kill you.
Stop. Blaming. Killers. For. Your. Mistakes.
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Game needs more people that remember simple things that your parents should teached you when you was 7
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For sure, with reading and comprehension at the forefront, apparently.
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Okay wise one, tell me how you stop the killer from tunneling you. Please teach us all how to completely remove the killer's ability to tunnel.
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They said they died 8 games in a row in another thread...all due to tunneling...
No items/DS/Healing Perks (self)/Exhaustion Perks in the posted build from their "Give me a toxic build" post.
People posted the builds they have success with (I posted my solo ez pip build), but they're just either bad or unwilling to adapt at this point.
Post edited by Raccoon on1 -
Surely nobody is this dense...
If you are getting tunnelled this much, you are clearly the variable that needs to change. You are clearly making yourself too visible and not doing a good enough job of hiding or avoiding the killer.
The killer will typically go for the weakest/easiest/closest target they can see. This is 50% within your control, and 50% within the control of the survivor who rescued you. It is a matter of teamwork. You need to hide, and if you can't, they need to make themsevles a target.
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A few things...
- Killer's will chase whoever they want to chase. It doesn't matter how close or easy or weak they are. If the killer wants to go out of their way to chase one specific person, they're going to do just that. There's nothing you can do to change it.
- Solo players don't have teammates. We are at their mercy nearly as much as we are at the mercy of killers.
- Hiding means nothing. We have so many detection perks now that even Distortion is pointless. Not to mention the existence of the Doctor and the Plague.
- If I'm the variable that needs changed, then why was this not nearly as much of an issue over a month ago? It's almost like something else changed in that time... I wonder what that could be.
Dense is the most ironic term you could've used.
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- So your theory is there's a conspiracy for all killers to intentionally target YOU?
- Solo players can be good team mates. They can also be bad team mates. It's up to the SurvivorS (plural) to counter tunnelling. Stop blaming the killer, start blaming your team mates.
- Again? you already made this weak argument.
- Confirmation bias.
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I see what the Dev's were trying to do with the DS nerf but there are some unnecessary things that make it deactivate, it deactivates when you start to heal yourself or others, that's so unnecessary.
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I didnt understanted? did i read something wrong
For me is very clear, he said that its normal to put your fun over others, i replied, you sayed that its ok this behaviour cuz it isnt breaking the rules, and i said that it isnt something about the rules, and yes about being respectful
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If you're not breaking the rules, you ARE being respectful towards all players (this includes post-game chat on PC as it is covered in the rules/EULA).
Your personal expectations and biases have no influence on this fact, nor does any enjoyment you may or may not obtain from any given match.
Telling someone else to leave the game because of your personal expectations is rather infantile, particularly when they have done nothing wrong.
Sucks they don't play the way that YOU want, but if you can't handle player autonomy in this or any other game, it doesn't give you a right to debase or belittle others.
Of course, if YOU do not like the game's design or rules, YOU are free to leave at any time.
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And in case of questions
Hey is on google
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You can, hypothetically, teabag and click your flashlight all day if you want - It has no effect on me.
I'm not sure where the lies are, but I'd sure be obliged if you would show me.
I am also sorry to be the one to tell you, but even in real life (which you seem to enjoy comparing this video game to, for some reason), people are free to do things that you disagree with / negatively impact you so long as they are not breaking any laws.
Why would the devs care about people that are breaking the rules? YOU are the person that has an issue with them.
Sadly, I'm gonna have to double down on my previous comment regarding reading and comprehension, as well as adding that no one needs to pander to your whims either online or offline.
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That's funny, since the anti tunnel functionality of DS is still intact. People simply stopped using it. I wonder why?
Golly, it's almost like they weren't using it to curb tunneling after all. They just wanted their cocky DS plays. Hmmm, you don't say.
But yes, let's blame tunneling on the DS nerf.
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