A way to stop/disincentivize hook camping.
So I recently brought some new players to the game and they were excited to try a new type of game experience and enjoyed it for the most part. That was all until we ended up against a dedicated hook-camping killer. It really ruined the experience for these new players as it was anti-fun and on top of that, the person who got hooked (playing that game for really only 3 minutes) lost rank progression for getting hooked only once (as I'm sure we all have at one point or another), essentially being punished for not being able to play the game.
I'm not one to complain without solutions so here are some concrete solutions (with some tweaking) that I think could solve two parts of this problem.
The first part of the problem is the camping itself. Since we don't have the ability to make the killer leave the hook, I think the answer is to instead make them have to be there longer for the same result. I propose that if the killer is within x distance of the hook (not terror radius since some killers/perks can lower radius), the rate that the hooked survivor is sacrificed is slowed based on how long the killer stays within that distance. The rate returns to normal once they leave but to prevent resetting this degradation by stepping in and out of this range, make the rate never reset for that specific hooking but only apply and accumulate within that range. This does two things by my logic: it either tells the killer to back off a little and hunt other survivors, creating a window and space for teammates to rescue a hooked ally OR if the killer is dead set on claiming that one life, it will give the rest of the team enough time to clear more than enough gens to end the game faster and give some merit to the grief the hooked survivor faced; that's way more satisfying then what the current situation allows. This should all be visual to the killer as well as to give them a visual cue that their style of play could cost them the game. This will be a major help for lower-ranked players who are learning the game and do not have the answers to hook camping and will encourage play from the killer that is more interactive and fun. Lore-wise, I think it could be interesting if the killer's prolonged proximity to the Entity could be a source of interference of sort.
The second half of this problem is de-ranking to this toxicity. It seems entirely unfair for a survivor to lose a pip after not being able to get unhooked (which they have no control of at that point) through two hook states. More importantly, it's a second source of grief from a game that you had to sit through and essentially not play besides smashing the struggle button on the hook for god knows how long: it's no fun without a doubt and why do something that's not fun- that feeling hurts the game. There will be some who say "just don't get hooked" but sometimes it's unavoidable and, for new players, getting hooked may be a certainty. I propose, in line with the previous change I suggested, have the hooked survivor accumulate points based on how long the killer stays within the x distance proposed earlier on the basis that they are sacrificing themselves at that point to occupy the killer's attention. Could it even be reasonable to give them some sort of assist points for every objective completed while the killer occupies that suggested space? I think something along these lines could be very healthy for the game as it's bad enough that you got griefed by a killer but the fact that the game itself then penalizes you further; losing a pip is minor but it feels bad and this shouldn't more than it already does.
The third idea I have is separate from the previous two but utilizes principles from the first part. What if there was a perk that filled up a token (similar to something like detective's hunch) that allowed the hooked survivor to unhook themselves and give them endurance so that they could escape safely. The condition for allowing you to use this perk is that the killer stays within x distance of the hook for however long we feel is balanced. This is a simple idea but I think its existence alone could be a deterrent for this behavior.
Thanks for reading, I'd appreciate some thoughts and input on this. This is a great game and I'd love to see it keep getting better.
Comments
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Camping is a strategy, a very weak one at that most of the time. There really is nothing you can do that will discourage it in certain situations. Just do gens while the killer is camping and hope for the best.
Killers also already are punished for this by depiping. And no it is not always toxic.
The third idea is not really that good, at all really. BHVR needs to fix the game, not create a perk that acts as a band-aid fix.
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The theory behind these ideas is mostly aimed to help new players who don't have comms with their team and don't know to or when to abandon their ally- I'm not worried about red ranks facing this or even purples. I see where you're coming from but you can't tell me that "There really is nothing you can do that will discourage it in certain situations... and hope for the best" is satisfying. That just screams unhealthy game state, that's a literal admission that there's nothing you can do- which isn't fun. It's a game and it's meant to be fun and interactive. By the time a team has figured out that a killer is camping a body, they may only have enough time to get a generator or two without experience and/or comms, that's a bad tradeoff in favor of the player doing something that I think we can agree is toxic to the game. You're probably right as well when you say it's not always toxic but what % of those instances are not toxic? This idea does not prevent the non toxic forms of camping you say exist (which I also know exist to some extent) but I think these changes truly penalize the worst offenders.
Agreed that the perk idea probably isn't that strong but it also isn't meant to be a meta perk, rather it's meant to be a noob-tailored perk to get players through the early phases of learning the game. It could definitely be improved but it's simply a base of another potential solution.
I disagree that killers are punished enough for this, I can't pull up records since there are none but in that game I referenced and some others, the killer did not lose pips- I'm not certain if they gained but for certain they were not penalized. I'd like to see that behavior penalized more regularly to incentivize more engaging killer play.
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Camping and tunneling are fine as they are, most of the time they are self punishing actions if survivors have the slightest idea of what they are supposed to do, which is to do gens. Killers will be automatically discouraged from do it once they start to see how they don't get points at all.
Also, camping needs to not be punished outside of the normal course of action, because it is a strategy that works in specific situations, I've found it specially effective against tryhard survivors, the ones that make their perfect plan and even get someone to act as a decoy, in many cases I've found that if you caught the decoy and camp it, it will now become bait to get the rest of the survivors.
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Tunnelling and especially camping are not okay and should be punished more heavily.
Camping is the easier one to fix, as the suggested idea is a good one: just slow hook progression if the killer refuses to leave. Yes, you can keep repeating that survivors should just 'do gens', but the time it takes to scout out a camper can already cost the party a second kill, and it's not like hookstates actually last long enough to go through more than one gen. This actually makes camping a more effective strat than it has any right to be, and above all, it carries the problem that it is just not fun for anyone involved.
Viability is one thing, but games are supposed to be fun.
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"it's not like hookstates actually last long enough to go through more than one gen."
One stage takes 60 sec. One Gen takes 80 sec alone, without any perk or toolbox. You can easily finish 3-4 gens during camping.
Camping is valid strategy, some killers are very good at it (Cannibal, Trickster, Twins), so nerfs would hurt them more then others. Survivors have ways to defend against it (BT, DS, Adrenalin).
Just face camp is not good strategy, but when I have 3 gen, totem nearby and hooked survivor, then I am going to stay there, because it is correct play.
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Yes, 3 or 4 gens, if everyone plays immaculately. That's not going to happen in average play.
And it does nothing to fix how absolutely trash the gameplay is for -literally everyone involved-.
Besides, if it's such a bad tactic, what's it hurt killers to have it removed as an option?
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I really like the first idea.
I admit that whenever i feel like i might not get a 4k i will camp the hook for a bit and boom the entire game falls apart for the survivors.
I was just in a game where it was obvious one survivor was a red rank and i was playing doctor for the first time so i thought might as well see if the other 3 can get him off the hook. Poor purple ranks didn't stand a chance and once he died i got rid of the rest with 2 gens to go. Plays like this should not be possible.
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Camping is a strategy and so is Tunnelling
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The idea here isn't to remove camping entirely though, if you're camping a hook near a 3 gen (which makes sense) you can still be on the hook but it gives the other team more time to pull off the hook if you're defending it. Also the proximity to the hook to trigger this idea doesn't have to be huge, it could literally be less then 20m. It just needs to create more opportunity. I'd rather nerf camp strategies to the ground trying to make the game more fun than leave things as is.
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No. There was already an attempt to make the Struggle meter go slower if the Killer way nearby, and Survivors abused it.
Gen Survivor would work on gens.
Bait Survivors #1 & #2 would stand far enough away from the hook that the Killer could not chase them easily. Thus, the timer was slowed.
If the Killer went after #1, #2 would go for a save, forcing the Killer to back up, and thus keeping the Struggle meter slowed.
Flip it if he went after #2. Again; the Survivors were visible, but far enough away that the Killer would have to work for the chase.
This meant, either the Killer had to camp hook (thus slowing the meter, thus giving Gen Survivor ample time to solo gens), or he had to give up and let Survivors unhook their friend.
As for the third idea; really? No. Why should the Survivor get a free unhook just because they got caught? This is, like the first idea, just a way to punish Killers for attempting to confirm a kill. Do you see any perks that shove Survivors off generators & lock them if they hit too many great skill checks in a row?
Why do you want to punish Killers for doing their job, which is to kill you? Sorry, but your ideas are, in order; an idea that was already abused, and an idea that just gives a free unhook for no reason.
I do agree that Survivors should get points if the Killer stays nearby, however. To take the sting out of being camped. Something about being distracting, or keeping the Killer's attention while on the hook.
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I'm glad we agree on the points for the hooked player, I think that would alleviate some unnecessary grief experienced in the game. It is a consolation reward essentially which are kinda lame but its certainly better than losing pips instead.
I wasn't aware that they tried something similar to the first idea but I don't think that the idea is bad simply because a version of the idea has been tried already. I think there's a middle ground that can be made to improve the game for all parties. And no, I do not wish to punish killers for doing their job of killing but seriously name me a game where camping was seen as a fun strategy to play against. There's none that come to mind for me. Every tension point in any game should be fielded with the question "is it fun?", and for the hooked survivor dying to one hook, that answer is 99% of the time no. Perhaps that's the key part to fix, trying to make it harder to one hook kill someone through camping- what are your thoughts on that?
I think it would work out fine if the range was like 8m or 10m, the killer can stay close by without slowing the sacrifice but not close enough to block off all options of approach to get to the unhook. Again, the distance for how far the killer should be to not slow the sacrifice is debatable but if the amount of slow is a buildup to a cap based on how long he sits there then it becomes a game of territory control between the non hooked survivors and the killer- which is way more interactive. The survivors are rewarded for pressuring the killer into a tighter circle and the killer should be trying to not be contained to a small area regardless. I feel that dynamic can be healthy if done right.
Camping may be a strategy but it should have more interactive counterplay than a team abandoning a teammate to do gens across the map while the killer sits next to a player who can't do anything at that point. It's lame no matter how you slice it. All aspects of the game should be highly interactive.
The perk idea was a toss up, just shooting ideas but it certainly isn't free, it would require the killer to be within a small, specific range of the hooked player for however many seconds and like deliverance would only be available on first hook state. It's no more annoying to a killer than DS and probably less so since the killer has direct control over this.
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One of the problems comes about when you look at WHY a Killer might be hook camping.
Sure, to be a jerk. That's one reason.
But what about because 3 gens popped, and this is their first hook? They feel pressured to make sure this Survivor does not get away, lets they don't get ANY kills.
Or how about when I hook someone, and all 3 remaining Survivors hide nearby? Why would I walk away, and why should I, as the Killer, be punished or otherwise have mechanics work against me, just because Survivors are trying to get a 4K escape? I mean, I have all I want right there; someone on the hook, and 3 people not doing gens because they all want to rescue their friend.
When you start throwing in punishments or forced counterplay against those two categories, you're actively punishing the Killer for doing his objective. Or punishing the Killer because the Survivors are playing badly (IE: Hiding near the hook instead of doing gens). And those two reasons are why the devs won't punish or deter camping; because there is no way to code a game to know 'This camper is being a jerk' or 'This one is doing it because it's working'.
It hate to say it, but the best counter play is to just do generators. No Survivor deserves a free unhook, or mechanics or perks to force an unhook or punish camping, simply because they don't like to lose. And that's one of the things behind the whole 'punish camping' movement; people believing that they deserve more 'fun' in the match, or more time to play. Even at the detriment of the Killer doing his objective. Because they don't find it fun to lose, so clearly the Killer should not be allowed to make them lose until they have had some arbitrary amount of fun, or they want to determine when it's okay for themselves to be removed from the game.
Someone is always going to be the first hooked, and sometimes they won't be saved. It's not up to the game, or the Survivors, to decide when the Killer can and cannot kill.
Imagine if that happened in an FPS; you're on a killing streak. You must have gotten 15 kills on the other team...and now your gun jams, or your powers stop working, or your accuracy starts to drift. And the devs claim it's a mechanic so the other team does not get defeated too quickly. Because that would not be fun for them. Well, it would not be fun for you to have your hands arbitrarily get tied for playing your objective (Be that objective killing the enemy team, capping a point, or sacrificing a Survivor), would it?
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As bad as it sounds. Camping and slugging has become a strategy to Safety Pip in the game.
We've all done it. Not exactly fun.
Survivors: Decisive Strike, Borrowed time, Adrenaline and body blocking will counter Camping.
Killers: Blood Warden, NOED, Lightborn, IRON GRASP, mad Gritt , Agitation are good Camping perks.
The Strategy is to slug the player, activate the exit gates. and hope the survivor does NOT have adrenaline or Unbreakable. If not. you have to get back and down another player. Once the exit timer reaches the last 35%, hook the survivor and enjoy the fruit of your labor. Blood warden will seal the exit gates off and the survivors are forever TRAPPED, unless they can find a key, AND the hatch in time!
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BBQ
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I'm a killer main and I've never once camped just to safety pip and I'm red rank. So don't say we have all done it. I can get a 3 or 4k most games without being trash. And one kill isn't much. Now I will stay around the hook if I see survivors actually around it. But that's not actually camping.
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You can try and validate it as a valid strategy for a killer but on the flip side, one player literally just gets cancelled out of a game without playing at that point, its anti fun. I think rather than try to preserve camping strategies we can buff other ways for killers to be strong if we have to but one hook killing someone isn't really skillful or fun.
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While you're not wrong, it's also part of the game.
Look at any FPS without respawns, like CS:GO. If you're the first one shot, do you claim it's 'anti fun' and ask for changes so it does not happen again? I mean, the first one shot is just cancelled out of the match without playing, but it's accepted as part of the game.
Why is it different here? Someone has to die first; why does it matter how it happens? Or when? When matches are 5-7 minutes long, how fair is it to ask for mechanics to prevent the Killer from killing for <x> amount of time, simply because it's 'anti-fun'?
What about the Killer's fun? What about the times where he needs to camp to slow down gen momentum? That first kill can mean the difference between 0 kills and a 4K, sometimes. It's TWO less people doing gens; one on the hook, and one trying to save them. Why should the Killer be forced (as some suggestions are nothing more than forcing the Killer to stop camping) to let the hooked person go? Then you go from 50% working on gens to 100% working on gens again.
Just because no one likes to be the first to go down does not mean you change it, or NO ONE would get killed.
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I couldn't disagree more, you referenced fps's but in those situations, you are all on equal footing and the other plays have just as much opportunities to kill you as you do to them unlike when you're on a hook and are relegated to spamming the struggle button hoping for a rescue. These ideas do no stop you from playing the hook if you need to, and if you do have to hold the hook you should also be looking to hook another person. There are so many ways to play killer objectively without sweating so hard that you have to force another player to not play the game, I can't fathom the argument you're making here, no one here said that if 3 people are pressuring hook that you should leave the hook; if they were gonna 3 man rush the hook the extended time wouldn't have done anything anyways.
Extending the time gives players a chance to see your strategy and adjust to it-its an incentive to try and counterplay your camp especially for players without comms or meta perks.
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the difference between a fps and dbd is that each player has equal power. Bad comparison, stop using it.
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Slowed hook based on killer proximity was tried TWICE on PTB's and survivors(More specifically SWF) abused it to badly it never left said PTB and had the entire idea abandoned.
For the second one camping is not toxic and is a strategy as said by the developer's multiple times. Why you don't get a min black pip and some BP if the killer is close by for 80+ seconds is something i'll never understand either.
For the third one look at the reasoning for the first one for why this is an awful idea that will never be added.
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I dont think it will ever be fixed. Unfortunately giving some type of penalty like stopping hook timer, increasing timer, or survivor teleporting like in cages can be exploited by good survivors. It could also make the basement obsolete if the killer gets punished for staying near it.
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Okay, but your argument here is that these super well coordinated survivors can punish a killer for camping... If this anti-camp mechanism were implemented.
That's not a very strong argument. Yes, he'll have to give someone the unhook, but on the bright side, two survivors have just shown themselves to him so he doesn't have to waste time tracking down a stealth player! And there's two, so he gets to pick the one with the most hookstates, too!
But what about because 3 gens popped, and this is their first hook? They feel pressured to make sure this Survivor does not get away, lets they don't get ANY kills.
At that point, you have to recognise that the problems are interlinked and both need to be dealt with. You can't slow down gen speeds because tunnellers and campers would be way too OP. You can't punish campers and tunnellers because then gens go too fast. So why not heavily punish camping/tunnelling AND slow down gen speeds at the same time?
I would definitely want to make that trade-off. Less of a time pressure on the killer and no way for the killer to just run you out of the game immediately after downing you once. Win-win.
Or how about when I hook someone, and all 3 remaining Survivors hide nearby? Why would I walk away, and why should I, as the Killer, be punished or otherwise have mechanics work against me, just because Survivors are trying to get a 4K escape? I mean, I have all I want right there; someone on the hook, and 3 people not doing gens because they all want to rescue their friend.
At that point, no one is doing gens, so the slowed down hook timer doesn't affect you -at all-. You can just roam around to your heart's content until you find one of them and murder them while the other two go for the unhook. Survivors aren't progressing at all in that scenario, and the killer is still steadily moving forward with his objective.
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