Hook grabs should be removed
Comments
-
they should add the hatch grabs back so the toxic survivors wouldn't get a chance, and no thanks about the hook grabs, they should be still in the game so we have a chance to interrupt the survivors, I mean what's the point for interruptions though.
0 -
Ok but downed survivors bleed out 5 times faster or are immediately Mori
0 -
I envision the killer attempting to give the survivor a shoulder massage but they get spooked and run away. Makes for a hilarious mind picture with some of the bigger male killer like shape, doc or demi.
1 -
The two health-state grab should be removed. It does promote camping and rewards losing killers. If the killer is an m1 killer, they shouldn’t get effectively a chainsaw down.
1 -
Wait...You can grab unhooking survivor ? Really 🙄 ?
1 -
Grabs should not be removed.
Killers are supposed to be threatening. You shouldn't just be able to do stuff for free right in front of the Killer with minimal risk if you're healthy.
Seriously... not too long ago I had a Survivor attempt an unhook less than a second after I threw their friend up on a hook. By a minor miracle, I actually did manage to get the Grab. That's a good thing because that was an incredibly dumb play and I should absolutely be able to punish the Survivors for doing it without having insta downs.
4 -
Even in that scenario, you could easily down the unhooker. grabs or not. You hit them to cancel the first grab animation and then the second time right after the unhook animation before they can even get away. It's way better than actually having to chase a Survivor and land two hits on them.
If someone wants to hook trade, the game should just let them. It's still a net benefit for the Killer in most cases. Hook grabs are basically a 'win more" mechanic because if you're in the scenario to get one its already looking pretty bad for the Survivors.
1 -
If only the game would turn your cancelled grab into a hit ......
I don't know how much momentum I lost because of a cancel grab
3 -
And?
I am well aware that I could have gotten a trade out of that scenario even without grabs. But I ask you this question... why should the Survivors be able to get someone off the hook even when they do it that badly? I would argue that they shouldn't.
2 -
"Rewards losing killers?" I'm sorry? Given the state of the game, that shouldn't even be a problem.
DH, DS, BT, UB, Lucky Break, Iron Will, and so on and on and on, all reward the survivor for failing, often by negating mistakes that should've lost them the game mere moments after making one of said mistakes.
I'm vaguely okay with saying hook grabs should be removed because they promote camping, because, even though I disagree with it, it's an actual argument.
1 -
And I argue they should get the unhook if the Killer is trying to force a hook state or death because its abuse of the mechanics.
A healthy Survivor, especially one with BT should always at least be able to at least get a trade. Killers trying to force a grab by camping should not be rewarded under any circumstances.
2 -
DS, DH, etc are perks. The two health state grab is a base mechanic that’s pretty lame. Like imagine getting grabs at windows on a healthy survivor.
1 -
Why?
How exactly does it sound balanced to you that the will of 1 member of a 4 man team can override the will of the only member of the 1 man team? You guys want to force an unhook against a nearby Killer? Get another buddy to help you. Then I'm fine with it.
I get that getting tunneled and camped isn't a good time. I really do. However that's the nature of an asymmetrical multiplayer game. If you throw the only member of the 1 man team into a hard and fast 1v1 against one of the members of the 4 man team... the one member of the 4 man team should get crushed, because he should have teammates to rely on.
1 -
You realize that survivors get a total of 16 perks, and usually run at minimum two second chances each? The killer has to burn through every single one of them, since the they (exceptions being Deathslinger and Nurse) rely almost entirely on punishing survivor mistakes to succeed.
The Killer needs twelve hooks, and each one requires at absolute minimum 40 seconds (10 seconds for first hit, 15 seconds for the second one, 15 seconds to hook) by just the standard chasing method. This is assuming that the survivor has no second chances, no pallets, and that their teammates aren't doing anything to help them, although it does assume that the survivor heals between hooks.
The amount of time needed for that is about ten minutes. With that in mind, just chasing and M1ing survivors is basically pointless unless they're absolute potatoes.
The survivors need five gens and the exit gates. Each gen takes 80 seconds (assuming that only one survivor is working on one generator at any given time), and the gate switch takes 20.
The amount of time needed for the survivors to complete gens, assuming only one person is working on them at any given time with no toolbox or buffs or anything, and the killer isn't running any sort of slowdown, combined with the opening of the exit gates, is seven minutes.
So, in the best possible predictable scenario for the killer, the survivors complete the objective three minutes before the killer, or more realistically two minutes if the one guy doing gens doesn't have a map. Once again, this is assuming that the killer can reliably hook survivors within 45 seconds, is never not in a chase and thus knows where survivors are at all times, only one survivor is doing gens and lacks a toolbox, no one has any second chances, there are no pallets on the map, and the survivors are being completely useless when not in a chase.
Second chances can easily add ten further seconds to the killer's chase time, unless the survivor somehow makes three monumental screw-ups in sequence. This assumes that the survivor doesn't have the skill to use what is basically a passive ability correctly.
Killer in general does not need to be nerfed, and there is no reason why a situational, broken to the point of worthlessness one-hit down ability should be removed from the basekit.
2 -
You really don’t get it at all.
A camped Survivor is at their absolute weakest with little to no options at all. Everything is up to their team to give them their best chance.
Even in a 1v4 game. The four should still have some degree of autonomy and not be screwed over for reasons completely out of their control.
1 -
Except getting 'screwed over outside their control' is how they lose. It's literally how the Killer wins; he sticks people on hooks, where they can't do anything without help.
Then, he tries his best to prevent that help from happening, or he has to waste more time re-hooking. Time he does not have as more and more gens pop.
That's why I hate 'nerf/punish camping!' threads. It's just people saying 'I don't like losing.'
0 -
Nah - but let's change grabs so the Survivor cannot just cancel their action for 1 second to cause the killer to whiff - make them have a 1 or 1.5 second window after canceling an action that they can be grabbed; then grabbing will actually be working like it should and not be utterly worthless for using against Survivors taking action in the killer's face in most situations.
0 -
People don’t like losing by default.
Where the Killer didn’t actually play a very good game but won by abusing mechanics. Whether it be slugging, hard camping, no ed or even a three gen.
A better Killer could have won by playing normally, but instead the Survivors got someone who was compensating for their lack of skill.
It’s literally possible to “win” this game by hard tunneling a player out of the game by camping and winning the bet that the Survivor didn’t bring DS to get them out ASAP.
2 -
I do get it. We can debate whether it is a good thing that currently being on a hook turns someone from a player into an objective or not... but that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about 1 player on a 4 man team accomplishing an objective (getting an unhook) in spite of the only player on the 1 man team doing their best to prevent it. That's not ok. The member of the 1 man team should be stronger than any 1 member of the 4 man team in every aspect. No exceptions. Get 2 or even 3 members of the 4 man team working together to get the objective done anyway? Sure, that's fine. You're overcoming the 1 man team's greater raw power through teamwork. That's how asymmetrical multiplayer is supposed to work.
0 -
I see, 'abusing mechanics' that are in the game, including tactics, a perk, or survivors putting themselves in a 3 gen.
So all that is the Killer 'abusing mechanics', and one of them is the Survivors actively screwing up, but the Killer's fault he acted on it, huh? How dare that Killer not give away generators in a 3 gen situation! A BETTER Killer would have!
Your bias is showing.
0 -
That’s a whole lot of not talking about hook grabs. If the point above is killers cannot exceed in this game, then that’s wrong. Like really wrong. Like 65% wrong according to the developer statistics.
Some killers are just bums and need the crutches taken away because camping isn’t fun. Not fun for the killer. Not fun for the survivors. Learn how to win chases and use the killers ability.
Killer should be rewarded for playing well and the hook grab standoffs is not it. It’s the killer giving up with the hope of squeezing out the lowest of effort kills after probably getting manhandled all game long. Undeserved. Bad mechanics.
1 -
I'm not sure how I can have a bias when I play both sides consistently at Rank 1.
A three gen can be forced by the Killer just as easily as the Survivors can put it on themselves. Especially on maps like sactum of wrath, azorov's resting place and suffo pit
1 -
ANd if the Killer forces a 3 gen; he outplayed the Survivors, who did not pay attention. But since it's the Killer's fault, it's up to him to fix it by giving the Survivors a gen, right?
1 -
The point is that killers need to put in way, way more effort and get less reward for it. Has it occurred to you that the killer needs to be directly behind the survivor to pull off a grab? Or that you can literally just stop the animation that lets them grab you and they can't do anything about it?
Survivors progress their objective by holding a button and tapping a different button occasionally. They do this about five times. The killer has to find the survivors, chase down the survivors, put the survivors into the dying state, and hook the survivors, all in succession and all while pressuring the gens somehow, and if they waste so much as five seconds it could very, very easily cost them the game. And evidently it's all the killer's fault for not being good enough.
I win most of the chases I'm in, and I know how to use all of my killers' powers. Making a thinly veiled insult doesn't really do much to prove your point.
If you think that something should be taken away just because it's "unfun," you need to think about how that would turn out if the same rule applied to survivors. You wouldn't be able to start a blind while the killer was preforming an animation, you wouldn't be able to bodyblock the killer, you wouldn't be able to sabotage hooks nearby to the killer, you wouldn't be able to play with your friends (ever), you wouldn't be able to 99 the exit gates, and on and on.
Survivors should be rewarded for playing well, and holding one button for 20 seconds isn't that.
0 -
No. A Killer can literally stay on one side of the map the entire game and ignore generators not in their pre-determined three gen.
Hags do it all the time. The Survivors can 99 gens to make it look like its not a three gen but it won't work because the Killer will literally never leave their area.
0 -
And if the Survivors realize the Killer is patrolling 3 gens, they need to ask themselves why, and try to bait the Killer away.
These forums are a riot; Killers aren't allowed: Certain perks (Like NoED), to camp, to slug, to 'tunnel', or apparently to protect gens now. They're literally not allowed to do anything that keeps Survivors from losing, according to these forums.
Hooking people is 'unfun', putting people in the dying state is 'toxic', certain perks are 'crutch' and 3 genning is the Killer's fault.
But Survivors? They can: Run meta, use SWF (with voice comms), make unsafe saves (and expect the devs to make them easier to do), and if they flashlight click, or crouch-spam; it's the Killer's fault for getting salty. It's like some Survivors in this forum are sublimely convinced that everything is the Killer's fault, and they deserve EZ wins every match.
3 -
I've had a couple of killer mains tell me that and each time I've asked them to explain they told me essentially it was unfair becuase the killers had to leave the hook to progress the game(which sounds like it was working as intended) except one killer main who said the problem was survivors would force a chase around the hook, hence the in chase exception.
But in case there's another actual abuse out there, besides the killer can't stay near the hook and camp, please tell me what it is
0 -
I know it sucks using perk slots up but when in solo Q I find using ace in the hole and kindred helps more then any other perk combo because it gives randoms the information they need to not make the worlds worst plays. Still working on a way to teach them about trapper traps that are directly in-front of me on the blank white ground. Its a slow process here at solo Q HQ but eventually we hope to train our fellow apes to not step in bear traps and unhook people!
0 -
I’m not interested in insulting you. I think we’re having a good conversation.
Killers are rewarded with far more bloodpoints then survivors. Even in efficient games.
You probably play killer a lot like me. Do you know how many bloodpoints the killer gets for successfully camping a survivor to death?
..
...
200.
...
Killer button pressing is not more impressive then survivor. There’s more to take into account but like I said above, killers easily get above 25k a match and for survivor that’s a feat.
I don’t have a problem with the list you provided in the second to last paragraph. None of those lead to wins. Saboing hooks or flashlights at pallets often do the opposite of helping. 99ing a gate is just a symptom of winning; the killer lost the match long before EGC if that’s the concern.
1 -
Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. It sounded a lot like you were insulting my skill. That happens a lot, if you haven't noticed, and people tend to act like it instantly wins them the argument.
I'm glad that you're a fairly reasonable person, although evidently not completely reasonable given that you're willing to take time out of your day to actually respond to me, when I'm fairly notorious for being stubborn and irate.
I'm not saying camping is skillful or even okay, I'm saying that there's no point in removing grabs given how absurdly difficult they are to start, let alone finish. You pretty much have to surprise the survivor or they have to be an absolute potato.
And I agree, a killer pressing a button is no more impressive than a survivor pressing one. The BP, however is fine. If survivor and killer got the same amount of BP suddenly, virtually half the killer population would just play survivor.
I wasn't saying those things lead to wins, anymore than camping does. I was saying that they were overwhelmingly unfun for at least the majority of killers. They break immersion and feel really cheap given the effectiveness/skill ratio, which does apply to camping and slugging (and tunneling, but to a lesser extent).
1
