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Keys are Goddamn Ridiculous (TL;DR at bottom)
I'm not sure if they buffed chests or anything recently, but the amount of keys / hatch escapes I've had in the last month or so have been outlandish. For context, I took a break from the game shortly after Blight came out and only recently started playing regularly again, which meant that I started at Rank 20. Naturally, I started to make my way back up the ranks (I had been ~Rank 4 before the hiatus) and I noticed that once I got to green ranks, the matchmaking was not being very fair at all. I was getting full red rank sfw at rank 10, but that's a different issue. Many of these games have involved one or more of the survivors bringing keys, or finding them in chests.
Example A:
I was trying out the trickster as I had just gotten him with shards and levelled him up a bit. Decided to bring some meta perks because I heard he was, for the most part, a subpar killer. Ultimately, I got a few hooks but no sacrifices, and the survivors finished all the gens. Naturally, I started patrolling the gates, but never saw any scratch marks. So, I start widening my search to see if they're hiding somewhere nearby, healing, etc. when suddenly the hatch icon appears in the corner and all four of them escape at once. How exactly am I supposed to combat this? I can't exactly just leave the gates to search for the hatch, because then they're just going to open the gates and get out anyways, and I shouldn't have to go out of my way to find it when it's not even open in the first place, but fine. Whatever. I should've realized they brought a key when loading in right? Then I would've been able to adjust accordingly? That brings me to...
Example B:
I had some Nurse challenges from the archives left over so I decided to work on those, not even three games later. Now, my Nurse is only level 35, so I had to work with what I had, but I made extra sure to notice if any of them brought a key. As you can see, none of them did, and one of them even brought a Hawkins offering. They got the first couple gens done relatively quickly, but I managed to sacrifice one of them, and they also three genned themselves. Luckily, they seemed to be attempting to commit to the three gen instead of hiding, so I stuck to chasing them off the generators (two of which were close to being done) and I failed to notice that one of them wasn't showing up. So there I am, chasing one of the ones trying to work on a gen, when they run up to their two other friends standing around the hatch, and they all leave. They had gotten a key from a chest. Again, what should I have done here instead? Let them finish the generators? Hunted down the third guy? Should I have brought Franklin's Demise regardless of if they brought a key into the match or not?
Now, you might say that finding keys is a rare occurrence, but apparently, this is not even close to the truth. Of the last 30 games I've played (I've slowly climbed to rank 4) I would estimate that that at least one survivor brings in a key a third of the time, and they find a key in a chest another third of the time. Maybe half of these key-based matches involve at least two survivors escaping through the hatch.
In conclusion, keys are severely overpowered items that oftentimes cannot be played around or require an overhaul of your usual strategy to even stand a chance. They're way too commonly found in chests, even without a looting build, and their power only multiplies within a SFW, which is how most people play at purple and red ranks. Keys need a severe nerf, rework, or they should just outright be removed from the game. The hatch is also an outdated mechanic that needs to be reworked. And on a (semi) unrelated note, matchmaking is still broken and SFW makes that problem even worse.
TL;DR: Keys are broken gamechangers and are way too easily found within chests with little to no counters, especially when used within a SFW.
Comments
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bump
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A key nerf is supposedly coming but I doubt it
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Ah yes another killer complaining about keys however I do agree chest seem to be spitting out keys more often I don't run plunderers for this reason but keys are getting a nerf so you know the person might just be using their stack of keys before they're made useless
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Last update had chests have a much higher chance to give very rare items so keys were common as all heck to find. But last patch have fixed this issue so item rarity should be back the way it was.
Last patch I had survivors escape with keys like 1 match out of 4, now it's appropriately much rarer again.
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I asked if survivors would ask for keys to be chabged if killers would ask for camping to be changed to be unviable. The discussion barley even touched on hiw to change keys becuase killer mains were so opposed to the idea if loosing camping. Would you give up camping if it meant keys would be nerfed hard?(I liked the idea of it taking uninterrupted time to open kind-of like a totem but any suggestion's welcome)
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I'd say camping's already pretty unreliable - you're only securing one kill with that, and smart survivors will just do the objective while you're standing at the hook like a dumbass. The only times camping works is when all of the other survivors are altruistic to the point of stupidity or during EGC in which case I'd say it's viable and fair for the most part.
I like the idea of making it so keys take time to open the hatch. Another way they could rework them is so that only the person with the key can go through, after which then the hatch closes again. Maybe only the ultra rare key could leave it open, or maybe it could be with an add-on.
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you aren't running franklins in a single build?
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Keys are a double edged sword unfortunately. Yes they are op but at the same time they are the single best counter to tunneling/camping and nurse/spirit whom the devs still refuse to nerf. Keys will remain the same as long as those things do I’m afraid
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Might want to edit your post to remove player names before this gets deleted...
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Tunneling and camping have been already adressed several times. Nurse is only a former shadow of herself. With her bugs, half her blinks don´t work properly. Spirit isn´t overperforming according to the dev stats.
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Dosent change the fact that not survivor player likes to play against any of those things just like no killer likes playing against keys. As I said it goes both ways unfortunately and the devs are probably very hesitant to nerf the thing killers hate without touch any of the things survivors hate
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The devs aren´t hesitant to nerf things survivors hate. Those things usually get nerfed pretty quickly.
BT was just buffed to help survivors against camping and i expect further buffs to the perk.
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What really pisses me off is that opening the hatch is INSTANT meaning if you're chasing them and they head for the hatch they will escape by hatch 100% of the time.
No animation to open unlike chests and gates.
it's so ######### stupid there is zero counterplay to this. I lost so many games because survivors opened the hatch IN MY FACE while I was chasing them and there is literally nothing I can do about it.
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We already lost moris why should we lose camping too? That's stupid. Let's just let SWF have a 100% win rate while we are at it.
Mori nerf should have came the same day as key nerf and it's ######### stupid moris got nerfed first.
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This is the biggest issue. Unless you're the last person alive and the hatch is already open you shouldn't be able to just instantly leave with no counter, especially when you go into a game with the sole intention of not finishing all of the gens, as if that was even a difficult task 90% of the time.
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The hatch should only spawn when all gens are done or last survivor...
Also adding time to open the hatch- 2.5 seconds uninterrupted (same as hooks)
And starting EGC when all gens are done- Cause this 99% the exit gates thing is getting old (IMO) and it Feels Survivor sided seeing that they can 99% a gate to get the last save (IMO)
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Keys nerf/rework is coming, just give them like 2 more years or somthing :)
At very least i want channeling (unlocking) time, so you cant just hop in the hatch in killers face. Key would break in progress (into green one) and hatch would remain open for 30s (maybe 10?) then it closes (no EGC) OR untill first survivor hops in, then it closes without engaging EGC.
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Haha there it is. No don't fix x they already fixed so its not fair. As though the devs havento keep a list. OK we fixed ds now we can finally fix a killer issue or hey we fixed mories now a survivor ones up
I'm curious if anyone kept a talley of who gets more nerfs survivors.
The real funny part though is if you do want one for one that's really what I proposed in the first place one Killer and one survivor. As another fun question If the next nerf is to survivors will you be opposed at that point to fixing keys beciase you know that wouldnt be fair to survivors to get two on row?
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Those are all excellent suggestions but yeah a key nerf won't happen for a year I bet if it does🤣
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the equivilent nerf to keys were moris.
that's a fair 1/1 balance nerf.
nerfing moris + camping just to nerf keys is ######### stupid. How is that fair? Oh wait this is a survivor sided game of course it's fair.
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Funny I thought the last nerf effected survivors, but in all fairness I don't keep a running Talley so I could be wrong.
Does that mean that if the next nerf effects survivors you will jo longer be in favor of fixing keys since then it would not be 1/1 but 2/1? Or is the needing to keep things equal in your book only when it comes to things you want?
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The most recent stats have Spirit's kill rate at ~4% higher than average, and 5th highest among all killers. 72% at red rank and 60% at all ranks. She is overperforming.
Nurse is still S tier. If she's a shadow of her former self it's because she needed to be. The nerf also didn't introduce her bugs afaik; she's been buggy forever. If half of her blinks aren't working properly, though, you might want to buy a new mouse.
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Oh i´m not the one with a broken mouse. Its usually the nurses i play against. Little to no threat.
But sure, if you say she is still S tier, despite having the lowest kill rate...
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Kill rate has its uses, but given that Nurse is the hardest killer in the game to play it's a reasonable conclusion that her high skill floor is driving down kill rates.
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Which wasn´t an issue before her nerf. All the nurse mains suddenly vanished. People that spend 1k hours to master her, didn´t adapted to her changes? Because its really hard to find a good nurse right now. Anyway, thats a discussion for another thread.
Back to the topic: in order to balance keys, the hatch needs to go. Use keys for aura reading but completely remove the hatch.
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Keys were "nerfed" from opening the hatch from 30 seconds, to 10 seconds.
In practice, this does absolutely nothing, because you either coordinate with the other survivors to all jump in the hatch together anyway, or you're using it in a chase and the killer closes it instantly anyway.
So no, the last nerf didn't affect survivors. At all. Keys are just as bad as they've always been. Enabling survivors to bypass any and all remaining objectives, which could be as many as 2 whole generators and the exit gates for 2 survivors, or the final generator and the exit gate for 3 survivors, or even enable all survivors to bypass opening the exit gates.
Mori's on the other hand were nerfed from bypassing a hook state, to... not bypassing a hook state. Now they're just a fancy animation that gets you less BP than a hook.
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Like I said I don't keep a Talley of needs so you could be right, I was didn't even think of then20nsecond change to be honest, but if that was the last nerf made my bad. It still feels like there were other nerfs since then to me for some reason though
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Nurse's nerf was absolutely warranted. Her range add-ons in particular were way too strong. There are still dominant Nurses out there. I played against one last weekend. Nurse's pick rate was 6.58% at red rank and 5.16% overall as of late 2020, so she's actually getting played a lot still.
I don't think you need to remove the hatch to balance keys. I've heard some people suggest that the hatch should only ever spawn for the last survivor or when five gens are complete, which would be one solution. You could also make the hatch automatically shut behind any survivor that escapes with a key. Another less substantial option would be to retire all of the hatch spawn offerings.
Keys are not strong enough at present if you only give them aura reading and remove their ability to open the hatch. You'd need to at the very least buff their add-ons and give them more charge time, because the only two decent aura-reading add-ons are purple rarity and one of them basically requires the pink key.
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What i don´t understand is, that we got the hatch offerings after they announced that they would rework keys. It makes no sense. Because the offerings + a key = ez escape.
Keys (and the addons) should get a buff, IF they remove the hatch. The 5 gens complete option would make it impossible for endgame killers/builds. They would have to protect 3 points on the map. Closing the hatch instantly after each key could work, but only if opening the hatch would take a few seconds. Opening the hatch mid chase never made sense to me. The survivor is supposed to insert to get down, insert the key, open the hatch all while mid chase?
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Yeah, I agree there. I don't think the hatch offerings make sense to begin with. People should have to work a bit to find the hatch in my opinion.
Most keys are brought into lobbies, so killers would have the option to switch their build if they didn't want to use an endgame build against one. With that said, once the gates are powered, people usually aren't looking for the hatch instead because they don't want to screw their teammates if the killer shuts the hatch and they'd prefer to keep their key if they can. I just see no problem with a hatch escape in that situation. You need to complete five gens without losing your key, locate the hatch before the killer can down you, and you need to have been in a situation in which you would have died without the key. Otherwise the key did nothing for you. Dedicating an item slot to a key to help you in this niche situation instead of a reliable item like a medkit or toolbox is something I would love to see as killer.
I don't really see a problem with opening the hatch mid-chase either. The game is more fun when both sides have hope that they might be able to complete their objective. It's also a pretty uncommon situation to escape through a closed hatch as the last survivor in the middle of a chase.
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I don't think keys are actually the problem anyway. It's hatch spawn conditions.
The whole "hatch spawns when the number of gens completed equals survivors +1" thing is the problem, because it enables a hatch escape while there are still objectives left to complete.
It's these scenarios where hatch escapes are the most problematic, because the killer is occupied by guarding those remaining objectives, and is powerless to prevent the hatch escape, if they even know where it is yet.
If it was limited to just spawning:
- When only a single survivor remains in the trial.
- When all five generators are repaired.
Then hatch escapes would be mostly fine as they are.
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Moris end the game early.
Keys end the game early.
Camping is a legit strategy.
So we nerfing a legit strategy just to nerf a broken mechanic that ends the game early? Yeah that's fair.
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Yeah the only thing that nerf did was now survivors have 10 seconds to tbag you instead of 30.
wow thanks BHVR for limiting how long they can tbag me.
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I'm not seeing hiw a key build strategy is any more or less legit than a camping strategy, both are in the game.
The only difference is while both are annoying one completely removes the ability of one player to do anything while he counts down to his death and start o fhe next match, the other makes the next match start right away
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So you want to nerf spirit, so she's not 5th anymore.. and then what? You'll target whoever's in the other 4 spots.. so those 4 will go down.. making the other ones higher effective killers.. then request nerfs for those as well! Just shut up and git gud, seriously.
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I was simply replying to a comment that claimed she was not overperforming. I have asked for no changes and claimed nothing else about Spirit.
Incidentally, though, it's good practice for the devs to continually buff weak killers and nerf strong ones. The smaller the gap in strength between the strongest and weakest killer, the easier the game is to balance for all killers.
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True, I see your point. And I prefer to have killers not too overpowered because it makes it no fun to play against them, but they don't need to be nerfed to the ground either. But yeah, balancing the game is something I'm glad I don't have to do, I just play it and that's fine with me.
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i'll never understand why we have opening chest and gate animations but not hatch?? I don't care if all gens are done or not the fact that you can't stop survivors from doing that is ridiculous.
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The main argument is "the survivors have to find the hatch" so that's why there is no open animation.
Despite the fact they have maps and offerings and I think a perk to help them out.
Killers finding the hatch, now that's hard. So what's the excuse?
I don't think survivors deserve a free win because they accidentally found a closed hatch
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