Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Get all the details on our forums: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436478/sign-up-now-to-receive-a-recap-of-your-2024-dead-by-daylight-stats/p1?new=1
Funeral for Twins.
Comments
-
So were twins overperforming or something?
Like only 3 people use twins.
2 -
the shadow nerfs are ######### bullshit, why does BHVR shadow nerf killers?
1 -
"They removed Charlotte's collision? That was literally her entire thing."
They added it back after they disabled the maps where she could bodyblock the basement. No biggie.
"Either they think the Twins were a mistake, and want to nerf them into the ground so no one plays them (like Nurse)"
Nurse is quite common though, and even without her bodyblocking, she's quite strong to play. Being able to pressure 2 places at once is Twins' main strength. Bodyblocking tight locations her second, and Victor being able to Sweep her third. Yet, people tend to use her in the reverse order, where they mainly use Victor to sweep, bodyblock by accident and keep Victor close. Leading to very boring games that are very slug heavy.
0 -
Yes, in fact, she was. Same reason why J-flicking was removed. It creates uncounterable positions at no cost. An uncounterable position either needs set-up(devour hope, trapper and hag trapping #########, literally being in a deadzone etc), not lunging 5 meters away to hit a survivor without another survivor being able to either make distance or kick Victor.
"But I'm a killer, I am supposed to be able to hit survivors"
Yes, just like survivors need to be able to dodge killers. Creating uncounterable situations for hits by simply moving your mouse a little bit is like survivors being able to create unhittable situations by constantly running at 117%(which, they cannot, because killers need to be able to hit, just like survivors need to be able to dodge). Twins and J-flicking Blight broke that rule, and thus have been altered.
0 -
DS was overperforming and abused.
got nerfed after a few years
2 -
I feel that comparing a successful Victor lunge to the J-flick is a tad overexaggerating though.
While I agree that survivors need to be able to dodge killers, but making the cooldown 5 seconds instead of 3 just feels terrible to play as, especially if the survivor doesn't know what to do and just faffs about in front of Victor instead of running away or kicking him. It also removes the burden of knowledge, making countering the Twins a bit too simple.
0 -
Press S to spit on grave.
0 -
Eh, Iri Head Infantry Huntress took far longer than that. Remember that DS actually recieved a nerf 5 times since release, Iri Head has not been changed once untill recently.
For every "gotcha" you have, I have one to compare. DS was mostly fine compared to the abusement that was Iri slug Mori huntress.
0 -
huntress isnt over performing
1 -
I still carry the twins torch, hoping they'll get unnerfed. o7
honestly most survivors now assume a missed pounce is 5 seconds of stun as well and it's been a lot easier to get things rolling because mistakes turn into miracles. #savethetwins
0 -
Yes, and DS was still considered broken, even after those nerfs and a rework.
All you have are apples and oranges.
0 -
That's true; they think they have more time than they really do (especially if you use an addon to shorten the cooldown).
However on a successful down the crush is now not only preventing a snowball in some cases, but also a loss of the down. If there's a group of 3 and you down 1, Charlotte has to be REALLY CLOSE in order to get the pickup. Of course they nerfed the switch as well for a few extra seconds. ugh.
0 -
Yep, it gets a bit more hairy because of that two seconds especially when going versus a swf as it's already like being balanced on a razor's edge.
The Twins were also indirectly harmed by a few of the changes in the patch like BT being universal as we had ways to play around that and now pouncing someone with BT should result in victor getting kicked 100% of the time since he gets the 5 second stun. I'll take the wins whenever someone chooses not to kick Victor but a lot of the time it feels like I'm getting 4K because of ignorance/indecision on survivors' parts rather than my own sick plays.
Also based on personal experience but I'm pretty sure they extended the distance Charlotte has to go from the hook to unleash Victor now too. Used to be like 6M, now feels like 8-10m without using the height difference tech.
0 -
Same also the trickster
0 -
Or he spent time learning the killer's mechanic and is experienced with loops, mindgames, etc.
I have seen plenty of good Tricksters in red ranks - doesn't mean he is a good killer or easy to learn - just means that he can be a good killer in the right hands.
0 -
Iri head huntress was heavily overperforming, DS wasnt.
0 -
But at least it got nerfed. Mori was still broken after its nerf. Nurse is still broken after her nerf. Spirit is still pretty broken after her nerf.
So no, pretty sure all I have is apples. Iri has remained the same since 2016, DS has changed 3 times and wasnt really that broken. It was super powerful, but not broken.
0 -
DS isn't overperforming?
Lol k
All 4 survivors run DS it was getting toxic.
0 -
Just means you're bad. Overselective isnt overperforming. Or do you think Ruin is overperforming too?
I've faced over 1000 DS users against me, I've only been DS's 50-ish times, 40 times of that being intentional. So that's 10 DS plays out of 1000 where it was unintentional and helped survivors. How was it overperforming?
Overperforming means that when it's used, it objectively increases your chances of winning, which, it did not. Killers were still averaging 3k's with DS reaching a near 100% usage.
Now, how can survivors LOSE when they use a perk that's overperforming?
0 -
This is demonstrably false and easy to call out, DS was one of the most picked survivor perks (I think BHVR's stats showed this too, think the stats were made post rework) and was abused by experienced Survivors to rush gens in front of the Killer.
Getting a Iri head huntress requires that you be playing against a Huntress, AND that they have the add-on. Which is another thing: One can only last for a game, the other is a perk that can be used EVERY game because once you have the perk, it's permanent. This is still apples and oranges.
0 -
Literal moving the goalposts... AND a declaration that your original point stands because you moved it. "B-But DS was nerfed, and all of these other things were still broken after their nerfs(????) so therefore all I have is apples!! it was never that broken!"
It got "nerfed" with small changes over YEARS that didn't fix the core issue, then the REWORK introduced a new major issue.
Moris were only given a single nerf until recently and even then, it was only ebony that was broken.
Nurse is not broken now lmao she has a big weakness for big maps now and her OP add-ons are gone
Spirit was never nerfed
And no, you DON'T have just apples, don't try this goalpost move again please.
"DS has changed 3 times and wasnt really that broken."
How to tell if someone has not played Killer.
The post-rework invincibility shield was well-known, Unbreakable and jumping in lockers became more commonly used for a while because of how slugging recently unhooked Survivors was basically mandatory. DS was also a perk, not a add-on. How many times did you actually run into iri head huntress specifically?
0 -
No offense intended, but Tony is Killer biased.
And of those 1000 DS users, how many of those were you forced to slug a Survivor because they were trying to rush a gen or trying to unhook a Survivor because they knew DS was active and that they couldn't be hooked?
And I'm fairly certain that DS overperformed by your definition, since the Killer had to respect it or risk a Survivor getting away with game-changing plays that shouldn't be do-able otherwise.
0 -
pre-nerf almost every game all 4 survivors used DS. 90% of survivors purple and higher used it.
post-nerf almost no one uses DS anymore. In fact now no one uses it BHVR made it so there is always an obsession at the start to compensate no one running DS anymore.
The fact is the nerf virtually changed nothing, you just now cannot abuse it by doing gens, bones, etc Now no one is using it, big ######### shock.
it was overperforming.
0 -
Picked a lot is not equal to overperforming. Overperforming means that the endresults of the game are affected by something. Freddy wasnt picked too often, he was performing too well. DS? After its nerf, the endresults havent changed that much. It wasnt overperforming. The BHVR stats show a very similar kill result before and after the nerf.
"Getting a Iri head huntress requires that you be playing against a Huntress, AND that they have the add-on."
DOES NOT MATTER. IRI HEAD HUNTRESS MEANT A RANK 9 KILLER COULD HOLD THEIR OWN AGAINST A RANK 1 SWF SQUAD. DS COULD NOT CARRY A RANK 9 SURVIVOR AGAINST A RANK 1 KILLER.
BEING PICKED A LOT DOES NOT MEAN OVERPERFORMING.
So again, still all apples.
"It got "nerfed" with small changes over YEARS that didn't fix the core issue, then the REWORK introduced a new major issue."
Small? It went from 0 hook requirements, to being required to hook AND picked up again within 60 seconds. That's from literally impossible to hook a survivor, to having hooked all survivors once. That's pretty significant.
"Moris were only given a single nerf until recently and even then, it was only ebony that was broken."
No, Ivory was broken too. Getting rid of 1 survivor means the following scenario: 1 survivor on hook, 1 survivor in chase, 1 survivor not being able to finish a generator in 60 seconds, thus being forced to save his teammate before their teammate gets downed. Meaning literally no one can work on gens once 1 person is hooked. Both Mori's were utterly broken.
"Nurse is not broken now lmao she has a big weakness for big maps now and her OP add-ons are gone"
Ah, so that's why she's the number 1 performing killer on PC. Her basekit still is good enough to not need addons to perform well. Any addons being used on her are OP because of that. Let me repeat that, she can get 4k's against high tier SWF's without any addons. What other killer can do that? Spirit? Even Spirit needs at least 1 addon to do pull that off. Nurse is still broken.
"Spirit was never nerfed"
- Removed the collision between The Spirit and other players while she is phasing.
- restored visible 3rd person (Survivor POV) for when The Spirit is vaulting, removing this mind-game potential.
- reworked Prayer Beads Bracelet to make the audio cue global instead of removing it.
All part of 3.4.0
"How many times did you actually run into iri head huntress specifically?"
At least once a day, sometimes even 3 times in a row. Lets remind you that the only iri things Huntress had was iri head and ebony mori. Considering you get 1 pink item per bloodweb on p0 and get an average of 1.6 pink items per bloodweb on p3, and that it doesnt take that many BP to reset a bloodweb(I can do it with 30k BP if I just go for the one that I want and spend the rest on brown ones). That means all I need is 1 BBQ+Survivor Pudding game on Huntress, to be able to get an average of 1.5 iri heads, per BBQ+Pudding game. That means, that on average, I can play 60% of my huntress games with iri head, on p0. Add in P3 where you get an average of 1.6 pink items per bloodweb, that means you get an average of 2.4 iri heads, per BBQ+pudding game. Meaning I can play iri head Huntress 70% of the time. Let alone if I play a BBQ+Pudding game where survivors add in BPS. That's excluding the fact you can use BP gained from playing other characters and using shards or The Rift for more BP.
So essentially, if I werent facing a crack Billy, Spirit or Nurse, I'd be facing an iri head huntress. It was nearly self-sustaining.
"How to tell if someone has not played Killer." Except that I have, a lot. I've faced tons of sweaty SWF's. In the past year alone, I've gained the same amount of hours in Killer as I has survivor in the past 5 years. So I've been playing killer a LOT.
"The post-rework invincibility shield was well-known, Unbreakable became more commonly used for a while because of how slugging recently unhooked Survivors was basically mandatory."
Yes, but there are more than 1 survivor you play against. Eating a DS early on was often beneficial as it guarantueed you a kill where you would otherwise be left with an unknown situation if 60 seconds already passed or not. There were ways you can play around a DS, there wasnt much you could do against an iri head huntress except hope she sucks.
0 -
I know Tony is, he never played survivor at all, I just love putting him in his place.
As for forced slugs because of gens? Not that often actually. I tended to eat the DS in that case because I still had Pop or Ruin active. And no, overperforming means that simply using it means you have a much higher chance of winning. Yet, to use it succesfully, you already need the gameknowledge and skill required to have a high chance of winning. So perhaps in the top 0.01%, sure, it was overperforming. But that's tournament definitions. Tournament skill levels do not really reflect well to the average gameplay. If you were to balance the game towards tournaments, you would kill the game as it is.
And no, DS was strong, but DS Unbreakable was nowhere near Ruin Undying for example, even though many, many killers still think they were equals. Ruin Undying made builds possible that never should be possible(a good example I personally made, was only downing people while they were exposed or could be gen grabbed, while playing Doctor. My perks were Ruin, Undying, Iron Maiden and Make Your Choice, I got a 4k that match because they simply couldnt finish gens, nor break totems). While DS unbreakable was tough, sure, incredibly annoying and sometimes outright toxic, at the very least survivors had to be good players. There are still killer perks existing right now, that are much worse to survivors than DS was to killers.
0 -
"DS Unbreakable was nowhere near Ruin Undying for example"
you're forgetting the fact the killer is SUPPOSE to be stronger than survivor.
0 -
You aren't putting anyone in their place. Tony is just not amazing at arguing. Also, just in case, Killer biased =/= Killer main. You actually sound Survivor biased yourself, this entire response comes off as Survivor tilted, and I can easily demonstrate why.
"Not that often" Well, perhaps that was the case, but that's your experience, and that doesn't account for unhooking attempts.
"overperforming means that simply using it means you have a much higher chance of winning." Yes. DS was a meta perk, using it by bringing it with you and/or doing unsafe rescues with it, hopping in lockers to avoid getting slugged... these all increase your chances of winning by denying the killer pressure because of a crutch perk. Simple.
"Yet, to use it succesfully, you already need the gameknowledge and skill required to have a high chance of winning."
Do you actually believe that hiding behind a perk and using surefire, no skill tactics is "skill"? This is why you're Survivor biased, you think what everyone complained about was "skillful". This is more than enough grounds to dismiss the discussion because it's most likely going to be a waste of time, you WILL clearly think DS was not as bad as a add-on no matter what I say. Survivor = good, Killer = bad.
"Ruin Undying made builds possible that never should be possible(a good example I personally made, was only downing people while they were exposed or could be gen grabbed, while playing Doctor. My perks were Ruin, Undying, Iron Maiden and Make Your Choice, I got a 4k that match because they simply couldnt finish gens, nor break totems)."
Iron Maiden and Make Your Choice? Sounds 100% like a bad team. Sure you weren't at lower ranks OR playing against teams who didn't know how to deal with this build?
And you got results with a Exposed build that works best on Doctor specifically (I see the Iron Maiden synergy)... so this is therefore Ruin and Undying's fault (lmao)...? I don't know how to respond to this.
They also failed to do gens against a M1 Killer with a chase power that's easy to counter with vaccuming? Interesting.
"While DS unbreakable was tough, sure, incredibly annoying and sometimes outright toxic, at the very least survivors had to be good players."
There was absolutely nothing skillful about hiding behind a crutch shield and popping Unbreakable when you got punished for it. Absolutely nothing skillful in the slightest. Period.
"There are still killer perks existing right now, that are much worse to survivors than DS was to killers."
Sure, there's some annoying Killer perks... NOED. And that's pretty much it. Other meta Killer perk are 100% not on the level as pre-nerf DS. Undying originally was, but you're saying "existing right now".
0 -
Okay, predate, tony, keep on topic here. This is about the twins, not perks. You wanna complain about perks do it in another forum.
0 -
Survivors still cannot remove the killer from play. So killers are still stronger regardless.
0 -
I mean, its all connected to the original. Its a thread, the thread went from twins to perks. Thats how threads work, they are a tangent and go to related things.
0 -
"You aren't putting anyone in their place. Tony is just not amazing at arguing."
That's literally putting someone in their place.
"You actually sound Survivor biased yourself"
Actually, I would call myself killer biased. And yes, if you're biased towards a certain role, you pretty much play that role most. I just call out bullshit mechanics on either side, and if someone is defending very basic mechanics that are easy to counter. Sometimes I slightly agree with them, but as long as certain killer mechanics are in the game as they are now(Spirit and Nurse for example), they cannot possibly touch certain survivor mechanics. Weaker killers are being punished on mechanics that help survivors face stronger killers. So I'd say I love playing devils advocate. I've defended Tombstone Myers more than plenty against people saying its making him an S tier killer, for example. Its just a case of "I disagree more with you than I agree with you".
"these all increase your chances of winning by denying the killer pressure because of a crutch perk. Simple."
But that increase was not significant enough to be overperforming. Strong survivor perks have a place in this game just as much as strong killer perks have. An overperforming perk, would lead into guarantueeing 55% of the survivors escaping whenever its being used. There is no perk even close to that, considering most killers had 2k's or higher. The average escape rate was below 45% even, even with DS included. Meaning killers across the board had plenty of resources to deal with DS, making DS actually just a very annoying, but strong perk to deal with. Not a perk that made survivors overperform.
"Sure you weren't at lower ranks OR playing against teams who didn't know how to deal with this build?"
All rank 1, all 1000+ hours. 2 duo's. Ruin Undying back then simply was too easy to defend. So they were forced to work on gens, which I could easily bully them off. Doc's basekit can interfere too easily with totem cleansing and totems always fully reset. Old Undying was simply too powerful. They didnt know I was only downing them when they were exposed or if I could grab them, once they were all hooked once, they mainly remained injured and grabbing back then wasnt as scuffed as it is today. Again, old Ruin Undying was terrifyingly powerful with no skill needed.
"And you got results with a Exposed build that works best on Doctor specifically (I see the Iron Maiden synergy)... so this is therefore Ruin and Undying's fault (lmao)...?"
Again, you're forgetting that I was only hitting them when they were exposed OR grab them. I wasnt downing them if they were injured and in hitting range. I wasnt injuring them. I waited untill they were exposed OR if I could grab. Now, what perks today allow you to do such a limiting challenge? None, its a dumb challenge, but I could do it, because of Ruin Undying basically allowing me to let the game continue long enough for survivors to get fatiqued. The length of this game? 35 minutes. If it wasnt for Ruin Undying, I would have lost around 10 minutes for doing an absolutely dumb challenge.
"They also failed to do gens against a M1 Killer with a chase power that's easy to counter with vaccuming? Interesting."
Again, Ruin and Old Undying. Aura's if they started cleansing, spawns being slightly decent, and they couldnt keep touching gens because I would be able to grab. It was either push gens and be grabbed, or do a totem and be grabbed. All I needed to do was interrupt the totem guy every 10 seconds while they needed 3 people on the gens if they wanted to make progress, let alone that Madness T3 applied to everyone at the same time, which is 12 seconds of free regression. Impossible challenge to do today, not with old Undying.
"There was absolutely nothing skillful about hiding behind a crutch shield and popping Unbreakable when you got punished for it. Absolutely nothing skillful in the slightest. Period."
And nothing skillfull about interrupting a totem every 10 seconds while keeping the nearest 4-5 generators pushed. Nor was there anything really skillful about Pop being able to finish an entire chase and a half before removing 25%. Nor is there anything really skillful about using map offerings with uncleansable totems and bringing Ruin Undying, which, made Ruin Undying even worse than it already is(let alone Noed). Or Mori's before nerf being able to literally remove a survivor at no cost. Or, you know, old Dying Light that made the original DS look like a peasant?
And sure, it might lack skill, but it takes up a perk slot, both took up a perk slot. They were ANNOYING at best, extremely annoying. So what? There is plenty of perks and abilities like that, let alone addons. Topknot, Tombstone Piece, Irihead(which allowed mass slugging with absolutely no skill needed to achieve that, none, period). PH getting the absolute easiest hits and the easiest tunneling. Again, I can keep going. There is a lot of things on killer sides that causes a killer to need little to no skill. DS shielding you only worked if you were being ignored. Again, IT WAS ANNOYING, BUT NOT BROKEN. Does that mean it didnt need a change? NO, ofcourse not. Just like many, MANY perks still need a change, just to make the experience for both survivors and killers better. What matters is that the devs started listening that things need to be fun to face aswell. Freddy's nerf was mostly about it not being fun to face. DS's nerf was mostly about it not being fun to face(although, they could buff the timer now, as it instantly disappears after pretty much doing anything). Just as gen regression perks need to be reworked to no longer stack together, while being individually powerful enough as compensation(aka, working similar to exhaustion perks, at that point, pop could even be buffed to 30%, while surge can be boosted to 10%, as long as they would no longer stack).
0
