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Suggested Changes
These are the changes I propose to make the game more fair and therefore more fun.
Change #1 make hooks work EXACTLY like cage of atonement. Where when a killer hooks someone it teleports them to a random spot where they have to skill check until another survivor gets them out, the survivors can see the spot, the killer cannot. This will simply get rid of camping and tunneling. More over this will force both survivors out into the open and the killer to transverse the map.
Change #2 the second change should be to slugging, when 2 people are slugged ANY 3rd person that gets slugged results in one of the 3 people popping back up in a injured state. This change is designed to prevent full team sluggings.
Change #3 after implementing change #1 and #2 get rid of ALL perks related to camping, tunneling, and slugging. That means the removal of BT, DS, unbreakable, etc. All perks that were designed specifically against killers using toxic tactics, because change #1 and #2 would effectively have gotten rid of any need for them.
Now you might be thinking "well this doesn't seem fair to killers, they'll have to do more work." Actually they won't. The only killers that will be effected by these changes are ones that play cheaply and with toxic tactics. Any killer that doesn't camp, slug, or tunnel will not at all be effected by these tactics, because once they hook someone they will simply go out and find the next person or gen like they usually did.
Comments
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The devs have said these are valid tactics so these changes would honestly never happen.
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How about we just scrap off the killers and launch the gen simulator 2021?
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The devs have also said that they fixed the game, so let's agree the devs have no idea what's good for this game.
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In all seriousness though, what do you think of these changes? They don't change the core gameplay, they keep what's always worked about it, and only get rid of the toxic elements of it.
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No they're valid tactics whether you like them or not so you have to either put up with the fact that people will play that way if they want to or play something else.
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Slugging is the only way to efficiently pressure, especially when facing a good team (doesn't need to be a coordinated, just 4 good survivors can do the trick).
Tunneling is one of the efficient ways to win a game, especially if you've confirmed that the survivor won't have DS.
Camping is one efficient way to lose the game if the other 3 survivors understand that the killer is doing it and just slam gens, I always run kindred so I can pass this kind of info to the 3 other survivors.
I don't think that changing any of it would be healty for the game since it would take off the pressure from the survivors' and just let them sit in gens while the killer can't even reduce their numbers.
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I play killer as much as survivor, I have never had to resort to any of that to win a game. Now I'm sure there are teams out there that are coordinated in such a way in which beating them heads up is extremely difficult, but using cheap tactics won't beat those teams either, because if they're coordinated enough to beat you than they're coordinated enough to know how to spread out so none of your cheap tactics will work.
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Being valid and being fun are 2 completely different things. They might be considered valid by devs who haven't a clue how to sustain this game, but they aren't by any stretch fun, and things of that nature kill a game faster than anything else ever will. Games are designed to be fun, not frustrating, because no one wants to consistently play a frustrating game.
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- That would nerf all killers since you would always get little pressure out of hooking survivors. This would be especially bad for non-mobile killers.
- That would mostly reward survivors for not playing well, it would also nerf killers across the board.
- That would immediately get rid of several perks for both sides and there wouldn't really be a good enough reason to.
As said before, these are valid tactics and strategies that should not be punished. Just because it isn't fun doesn't mean it should be nerfed, especially when they are bad strategies most of the time to begin with, and they are not toxic most of the time.
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And as I've said before something being valid doesn't mean it's a good tactic. Those "valid tactics" are toxic by design, as such they should be removed from the game, they don't make the game better for anyone, at best they work as a way to make the game a miserable experience. Because out of all of those tactics not a single one is designed to provide pressure, all they're designed to do is to prolong the game by making everyone spend much more time than they need to. And I'll address them all one by one to show you.
Slugging - literally designed for no other reason than to slow the progression of the game down, while you're slugged you can't do anything as a survivor but SLOWLY die. Short of someone saving you or a perk getting you up that is the singular purpose for it on the survivor side. For killers it's a tactic that simply lets them pick off survivors 1 by 1 until they can cheaply win the game. It's not fun at all, and by the way, as a killer if you lose a slugged survivor and you don't have a perk that picks up aura's you're going to spend an extra 3+ minutes in the game waiting for them to die.
Tunneling - yet another cheap tactic with no discernable design in mind other than to make the game a pure misery, who the hell wants to be tunneled off a hook to death? You can't seriously sit there and tell me "this is a valid tactic" because all it is, is a cheap ass way to get a kill. It requires 0 skill, you literally wait the 2 seconds it takes for a survivor to be unhooked then smack em again. Short of BT or DS that's a second and death hook. And for what? Was it fun for you? For the survivor? No, it's just a garbage way to play.
Camping - This one someone said correctly, if you camp someone most of the time you'll lose the game because they'll just gen rush you. But the fact of the matter is that this shouldn't even be in the game, because it's designed purely to waste time and make the experience suck. For the survivor it sucks for obvious reason but as a killer I can't remember EVER wanting to sit next to a hook because it was a "good idea" or a "valid tactics". It's a disgusting tactic that exists purely for people who want to play like #########. And for no other reason at all.
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Your proposal changes will not make any significant difference; but rather will create the opposite game! Mostly changes will directly NERF killer across the board, and most players thatbplay them will not want to play as them; because how easy it is to win as Survivor more! These changes will definitely Make Killer Unbearable since you do not have many good valid tactics to get Survivor's of the Gens, just so they can try to win!
You hate Slugging and camping so much; get better at the game and punished the killer when he does camping by fixing gens! If he is Slugging, it is your teammates' fault for grouping up together, especially when they are close to you! If you hate being tunnel, understand that the killer will see you as a potential weak link in the Survivor group, and will do his best to down you and end you quickly! Do better at chases and looping, and hope you can discourage him from chasing you and wasting time of the Gens! By choosing to tunnel, he literally throwing the game, and you & your teammates should take advantage of this by fixing the gens and protect you during the chase if possible!
Good killers try not to camp, unless they see and knows you and your teammates are close! Good killers will slug, just so they can potential down another Survivor for team pressure, and of course, if you suck at chase and looping, the killer is going to tunnel and knock you out of the game! Do not give him the opportunity to Slug, camp, and tunnel; so that you all can escape and win!
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Your lame attempt to disparage me is completely incorrect as I am a red rank player. "Get better at the game" is an argument made by people who have nothing to contribute to the discussion about how broken the game actually is. Most of the time no one gathers up, killers these days go out of their way to slug teams across the map when they are nowhere near each other just because they don't have enough skill to down and hook which is the intended state of play.
"Good killers try not to camp." Good killers wouldn't be effected by these changes, because they don't camp or tunnel or slug. Which is the entire point, the only killers that would be effected by these changes are the bad ones, because they are bad, they have no meaningful way to win the game other than using these cheap tactics. I for example wouldn't be effected by these changes in the least as a killer, because I down and hook every time.
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I find it hard to believe that the devs intentionally made these mechanics to be considered "toxic". I don't think you realize how much this would change the game, for the worse, as killers would literally be helpless in some situations. You would have even less killer players. On average, your usual match of DBD is about 10 minutes. Being slugged for 4 or camped for 2 takes less time than the actual match, so no it does not make everyone spend more time than they normally would in a match. They may not be designed to provide pressure, but they can most certainly provide it when used at the right times.
Slugging - I thought you just said that none of these were designed to provide pressure, having an immobilized and useless survivor crawling on the ground IS pressure. And the killer cannot just go about slugging all willy-nilly, if they are going to slug, they will slug only one survivor. And this is in favor of the survivors since the killer misses out on a hook state. And no, the killer can't just easily slug every survivor unless they are playing nurse with all of the good slugging perks.
Tunneling - Actually I can, I can tell you it is a valid tactic because it is. If it wasn't, then it would be bannable, but guess what? It isn't. You know what else doesn't take skill? Holding m1 on gens. Tunneling and "gen rushing" are just both sides working towards their only objective in the game. They should not be punished or reworked, at least not now, because they are part of the game and valid strategies. It may be a "garbage" way to play, but it is a valid tactic available.
Camping - It shouldn't be in the game, true, but all of these strategies are. Unless the game is reworked from the ground up however, you cannot get rid of these without creating huge consequences, more in favor of the survivors. And like I have said, camping, in fact none of these strategies, are only for upsetting people.
It sounds like you just want to shame people for using these tactics, while some do use them to upset people, there are a lot of times when killers doesn't use these strategies to intentionally upset people.
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You commented about how these mechanics wouldn't be in the game if they were toxic, but you have to understand this game was never designed in such a way in which they thought of what would be toxic and what wouldn't be. They just did it in a way in which it seemed to be playable. As a result they lost more than half their user base, what I'm proposing is a way to make this game work just as well as it can WITHOUT losing the other half.
Slugging is not pressure, if you slug all 4 people the only time that's ever faster is when they're right on top of one another, if you slug 4 people who are spread out(which seems to be the killer meta as of late) it takes forever and a day for the game to end. And it in no way adds pressure, all it does is slow the game, because unless he has aura reading abilities or gets very lucky at least 2 of them will crawl to a spot where they will more than likely die but not before wasting away for the remainder of the match. The killer is in no hurry, because for him the game could take 5 minutes or 55 minutes as long as they bleed out he still wins.
Tunneling in no way contributes to being a good player, and gen rushing while flawed is literally the only mechanic that survivors have, what else do they have? Can they kill the killer? No, Can they escape through the hatch without reaching low gens? No. So gen rushing was literally designed to be the only mechanic that they can do to speed the game along. Which by the way I've been trying to change since the inception of this game, I feel that gens are an egregious waste of time, and feel that there should be 5 mobile objectives in each map that the survivors should have to chase while the killers chases them. However I have not yet worked out what those are, so that will be a topic for another thread.
When killers use these tactics unintentionally there's no problem, for example if survivors swarm a hook to try to get someone off the killer should absolutely down as many as he can, as is his right and appropriate tactics. But what I'm suggestion is for the other 90% of gameplay when killers go out of their way to make this game miserable for everyone.
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And just where did you get this claim
Slugging is pressure. Map pressure is the ability for the killer to force survivors off of generators. Slugging a survivor prevents them from doing so and require another survivor to pick them up, it is most definitely pressure. And no, slugging all 4 survivors is not meta, it almost never happens.
Never said anything about tunneling relating to skill. And the killer only has to deal with is killing survivors, so why should tunneling be fixed?
You can't really punish only the few killers who do use these strategies to upset people because you would then punish the people who do it unintentionally. You can't punish them separately.
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Players who know how to play rarely get off a gen to get someone up, unless the killer is going around slugging everyone with cheap tactics. So no, it's not pressure, because even half way decent players will always finish the gens first. And there's one of the misconceptions you have about pressure and slugging. It only works on inexperienced survivors, or under extreme circumstances. Anyone who's even remotely competent would finish the gen, and let them either hook the survivor or wait for the killer to move far enough away to where they could get them up.
Tunneling should be fixed for 2 reasons, first because it's purpose is solely to play cheaply and second because since people use it by playing cheaply there are perks like DS and BT that take up space with no other purpose than to counter it. Basically it's a mechanic that adds 0 fun to the game and perpetuates perk bloat.
And once again this isn't punishing any killers that play this game with skill and purpose, just the ones that play it to make it a miserable experience.
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Good Killer or not; can still be effected by these changes! I am a Red Rank Killer Main too, and I definitely am the type of player whom dislikes playing scummy and sit around by the hook; just so I can go find others Survivors!
But what if you get into scenarios, when Survivors are not doing Gens and focus on bomb rushing or sneaky Saves under your nose! In those situations, I am not just going to walk away and ignore the Survivors that save and heal in front of me!!
I would do whatever it takes to win and not played by their rules! I absolutely agree with you that this game is so broken and can be lean towards experience and coordinating Survivors groups with coms, no matter how decent a Killer can achieve! There are Survivors out there that are willing to throw their live on the line, to protect their teammates; so that they all wouldn't have a bad game in which they eventually all die by the mistakes they make; which I will take advantage of!
Quit twisting the argument, as Good Killer would need to slug, camp, and tunnel; when the opportunity happens! This is a Survivor mistake that can easily be avoided by either Not grouping up (Slugging), not hiding near the hook or going for a risky save (camping), or being such a bad Survivor or weak link in the group, and get good at being chase and looping! And pray that your teammates are doing the objectives (Tunnel)!
If the game is more balanced so that Survivors are encouraged not to make these mistakes, or at least be giving the tools to communicate or get better at playing Survivor; then killers wouldn't play this way! They wouldn't tunnel; because they need to stop the others Survivors from fixing gens! They would not go near the hook and wait for the killer to leave so they can stop the others from fixing gens! And of course, they wouldn't slug if they do not see or hear another Survivor close by! But the main issues also, is that Killer's time is very precious essential factor; all because of the Survivors actions in fixing gens; which is why the Devs need to do something indirectly nerf the gen speeds or at least create more objective for Survivors, so that killers can achieve a 12 Hook Game!
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They been in the game for almost 5 years and the games continued to grow especially with more people playing survivor so your point doesn't make sense.
Also when has anyone ever bought and played an online game and put the fun of a stranger over their own lol.
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Under my changes it would force the survivors out of hiding all the time, because instead of having to camp hooks they would actively have to get the person you hooked out of the cage of atonement or they would flat out die, and it wouldn't take as long of a time to kill them, which would force survivors off the gens. Because right now if you hook someone you can get them, but you can take your time, under my way they start skill checking in a location immediately and they know that if they don't unhook their friend and the killer find them than they really do have a chance to camp. See camping wouldn't even be an issue unless lazy survivors caused it to be, and if they couldn't be bothered to get their friend out when the killer doesn't even know where he is than they have absolutely no grounds to complain about their friend getting camped. And as long as this change is implemented it gets rid of tunneling entirely so it's a none issue.
The slugging things is absolutely necessary, there has never been nor still exists a reason why any killer has to slug the entire group, it's just bad playing on both sides. I firmly stand by that change. It makes the game slow and miserable. Like slugging 1 or 2 people I understand, but anyone beyond that is just the killer being toxic.
Post edited by Tactrix on0 -
The data doesn't support your statement, this game has dwindled in both population online and player base overall. And the horrible que times are a good example of this, I don't know what game you're playing but this one has been seriously depleted because of the horrible patching that this company has done.
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This game has grown by far since it first came out and the reason you have long queue times is because people are getting fed up with playing killer and stop playing it all together. But sure take out camping and tunneling and see how your survivor queue times are then lmfao.
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Yeah unless there's weird shenanigans with specific platform players dropping the game, the facts are the numbers right now aren't far off from the peaks, and definitely not "dwindled"
https://steamcharts.com/app/381210#All
edit: as for your suggestions, I think you underrate how much this will effect killers who don't purposely hard tunnel/camp/etc...
Even if you don't camp hooks, you still use knowledge of the hooks location to know where survivors are/are going
even if you don't purposely slug to slow down the game, there are times where the survivors are all in one spot, and if you get a good series of downs you end up slugging 3-4 people. If I down someone right next to another person, then down the second person right next to a 3rd, I'm fine risking the 3rd chase letting the last person save my first slug, but just auto losing it because the survivors led me into eachother one by one?
That's my biggest problem with 99% of all camping/slugging//tunneling fixes i see on this forum, they ALL hit cases where the killer is weaker in a situation where the killer did nothing wrong.
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Uhh..
Not really 'dwindling' by all that much...In fact, that bar is trending upwards overall...
And those numbers are staying pretty even, or even going upwards a bit as well.
And that's just on steam.
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The reason there are long que times is because people are sick and tired of playing a buggy game with garbage tactics being used.
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Yes that's also at a time when everyone's still under lockdown. Check those numbers in 6 months when everyone's back working.
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you can think the game has become worse and people are fed up all you want. Don't claim "the data shows" when the data is literally the exact opposite. Unless you've g ot some data to share!
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Actually the data supports my claims, the only time the numbers even remotely go up is when there's a new DLC release, with the exception of the pandemic the numbers have been steadily on the decline.
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Lying to yourself Isn't going to make it true, everyone knows that killer numbers have been declining for a while now but keep making up story's to go along with your fake narrative lol.
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And saying stupid things like "Everyone knows" when you don't speak for anyone but yourself proves how wrong you actually are.
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Get a clue kid.
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September last year was blights chapter, august and september are basically completely flat, followed by a dip in october, then a big raise in november. so no big raises raises are not only tied to dlc, nor are drop offs only when there hasn't been dlc for a while.
then december had twins dlc, which again was a pretty stable and flat time.
Then all kill came out in march, and there was a decent jump, and that rise has continued, april and may continued to rise, and with RE in 15 days I assume the rise will continue for a while. So we are literally going from one dlc to another dlc with ONLY rising numbers.
looking at 2018, it starts the year bouncing around the 13-16k range, and end the year in the 19-20k range,
There is no way to look at this graph and not see a trend upwards, it was trending upward before the pandemic, it's been trending upward during the pandemic, and it's almost definitely going to trend WAY up in the next few months.
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It's basically impossible to look at that graph and see it trending downwards without sever cherry picking. it trended up from beggining of 2017 until august 2018. then it trended down until February, then had a huge spike, then a dip, that still left it higher than it was. Then trended upwards until september. Then there was a dip until february. Right now we are on a HUGE upswing, that started around all kill, and looks like that upswing is not going to stop anytime soon, since RE is up in 3 weeks.
The game was trending up for years before quarantine, it's been trending up during quarantine, we are currently, right now, at a new peak, and i assume that peak is going to be broken pretty handily in a few weeks.
To be clear there's no chance it doesn't go back down after the huge RE peak, the question will be are we left with a higher amount of remaining players than before. historically the answer is yes. And again, all of this is ignoring literally adding ENTIRE new platforms. The PC population has been trending upwards basically the entire life time of the game, more platforms have been added over time, and we are about to have a huge crossover event. There has never been more people playing this game, and we'll be getting even more in the VERY near future.
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oops, didn't mean to post both those, it looked like my first one got deleted, so i retyped.
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The issue is that in this particular genre there hasn't been anyone else that has made a decent version of a 4v1 asymmetrical game. This game is kind of like league of legends, people still play it because there's no better alternative. The issue is that the millisecond there is a better alternative the entire player base will move to it. And I'm glad to see that other companies have started actively working in this space, because competition breeds quality.
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Sure I absolutely agree on that, this game has no real competition yet. But you can't make claims the game is dying, and not only that that data SUPPORTS that dying, when all data says this is probably the biggest the game has ever been, and it's getting bigger. Not saying the game is perfect either, and i think discouraging camping(the right way) is super important.
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There's a game I'm waiting on right now on steam, it's called "a way to be dead", it looks promising.
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yeah, sweet home survive looks neat too, though pretty different in a lot of ways. I hope the genre grows and all the games can learn from eachother.
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I play SHS and that will be a better game once it's completely flushed out, I give it a year, maybe 2. The thing they did right with that game is they actually gave you recourse against the killer, that way it doesn't feel completely one sided.
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