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Wraith is apparently the new Freddy
To clarify, I mean that people are treating Wraith like how they did to Freddy. I'm not saying he's that strong. And why they're saying that makes a little more sense than it may seem.
People complained about Freddy because his blood puddles seemed like brute-force anti-looping power. Slowing survivors down for looping around a puddle was a bit lacking in nuance. I'm not saying it was that effective, but it was boring as hell, since it just means you drop the pallet a loop earlier. His generator teleportation was a bit annoying since it required little setup, unlike Demogorgon. He seemed cheap, in essence, that his power was just Clown but better and discount demogorgon combined.
People complain about the new Wraith because better invisibility and higher speed while cloaking means that he's able to catch survivors off-guard very quickly. Whereas you can hear the terror radius of other killers, and see them approaching you so you can run the other direction in anticipation, Wraith can get very close to you and catch you out of position, where you can't anticipate his approach and make it to a loop safely. The post uncloaking lunge also can come off as a bit extra. He's already up-close and personal, and giving him that extra lunge is just adding insult to injury, not to mention that he can use it at certain loops, which means you either camp the pallet in anticipation of which side he's going to lunge from or get hit. Plus, even if you do catch him preemptively, his increased movement speed means that he can just follow you cloaked until he's breathing down your neck, uncloak, and then use that post-uncloaking speed boost to screw you over at whatever loop you find.
Slightly besides the point, the reason Wraith got the post-uncloak lunge made basekit is because his clunky invisibility gave survivors too much of a head start. That was before he was given better invisibility and higher speed via the latest buffs. But now, it seems to some like a vestigial organ of a past time that's not congruous with his current features. It was meant to be a band-aid fix then, but now they've gone ahead with corrective surgery and left the band-aid. Why not reduce his uncloaking time, increase his uncloaking movement speed, and reduce the lunge?
Comments
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I think this would be a good change.
Like you said having the increased movement speed while cloaked along with increased invisibility and increased lunge feels a bit much when playing as and against him
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That change would definitely help deal with the issue at hand; the fact is, he was ever so slightly overbuffed to the point where he feels genuinely gross to play against. Nothing like Freddy, however still a pretty stale gameplay loop where people he chases don't even get points for their boredom.
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Wraith should have been this way on release, he's finally where he should be.
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the way i see it they can buff weaker killers to make them more playable or survivors can just keep dealing with nurses and spirits 24/7 cuz thats what happens if weaker killers such as wraith (before his buffs) are left behind
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No matter what, once killers gets enough buffs to get out of the gutter be it Freddy or Wraith, survivors will inevitably complain about it. They don't care if there are still far superior killers that might actually be problematic, needing a few changes since they're losing to wraith right now.
Current wraith is good, finally after years of slightly buffing him and always taking something away as well, he's finally pretty good. That of couse means, it's time to complain till he's terrible again. I'm not talking about this post but about the general idea that any killer that gets buffed enough to be good suddently gets hate for beiing good.
It's silly and unreasonable, wraith is good but by no means can he deal with competent survivor team. His lunge is just enough to get him enough distance to again reach a survivor that's running away from him directly, it's certainly not a good antiloop tool. Slightly better pig's ambush which is considred quite garbage and easy to outplay.
Nothing about him is unfair and he's finally got a good spot between other stealth killers, beiing the one with mobility but least lethality.
This wave of complains about wraith is just dumb, people complain for the sake of complaining, he's near the same as before with best addons. The main thing that changes that his long standing lunge bugs were fixed and he became more fun to play which made him also more popular, making survivors face him more often and thus lose more often to him.
I wouldn't be suprised if devs budged and actually nerfed him to trash wraith again. Hopefully not but with the amount of complaining one never knows.
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Ah another crying about wraith thread.
As for lis extra lunge range at weak pallets: Just throw the dang pallet.
Its less his lunge and more of people refusing to prethrow them.
Also his lunge is there to make his stealth work as a chase mechanic as he can't use stealth in chase without it as uncloaking would make him lose too much time(and his uncloaking speed add-ons are worthless once you see the actual numbers).
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Yep. Wraith is gross.
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Discountogorgon
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Glad me and my friend aren’t the only people saying this! I find him so easy to play as, horrible to go against. The best killer to play currently.
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my only issue with Wraith is the "on demand speed buff"
he cloaks and uncloaks for a free speed buff, and then a super speed buff for the few seconds after uncloaking, that's literally my only issue with him.
He's so average it hurts
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How history repeats.
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You cant predrop every pallet, because most pallets are unsafe and you have to stun the killer in order to get to another tile.
Wraith just outplays you on every unsafe pallet because his uncloak speed boost is boosted. Even a lot of safe pallets are unsafe against wraith.
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I always wondered why they didn't do that from the beginning.
But I think if they do, he will be a boring and unskilled killer, because at the moment of uncloaking, it will feel like an almost free hit with no chance to dodge from the survivor. And clearly this will generate several complaints.
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That's gotta be my new favorite way of describing Wraith. Thanks.
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I'm really happy that Wraith is a strong killer now, but the devs basically removed all of his chase interaction seeing as how they made him so fast while cloaked.
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People are kind of idiots about Wraith now. Everything they're complaining about already existed. Wraith already had the ability to constantly catch you out of position, he already got free hits at unsafe pallets if you didn't predrop them, it's just now he also has map mobility so that all of those tactics actually work better.
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Yeah to be honest, my problem isn't the Wraith it's how people are playing him
Said this on other threads but, I think it's fine to not find a playstyle fun to go against or to find it boring without saying the Killer needs to be nerfed or whatever.
His pickrate has def skyrocketed, at least in my region
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Not so sure. He is stronger now, granted, but just as beatable as he always was.
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Idk we've got multiple saying he's no skill now. Yep looking at forum posts its no longer spirit takes no skill its wraith takes no skill
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Well, same has been said about Freddy, Bubba, and perhaps even others. At this point, such complaints are hardly a surprise.
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Thank Christ someone here said it
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I don't think he is overpowered but he is absolutely abysmal to play against.
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And even the map mobility was something he had before but it was tied to an add-on that you would've ALWAYS ran if you played Wraith anyway.
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You noticed that Freddy wasn´t OP but mainly annoying before they nerfed him. Now you noticed that people jumped from one bandwagon to the next one, complaining about the next killer, who only got band-aides in the past.
...and your conclusion is, that Wraith needs a nerf?
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With the Wraith changes, I can finally run meme builds on him and still be a threat to survivors. Yesterday I was running Thrill, Undying, Haunted Grounds, and Hoarder as a "screw your rift" build. I was destroying survivors, at red ranks. Ok, maybe he is a bit over tuned, but I think he deserves it, at least for a little while.
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His lunge after uncloaking is the only thing that needs to be fixed honestly
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The year is 20XX. All killers have been "adjusted" to 105% movement speed and a single use of their power per trial. The dbd forums are still flooded with killer X is op/unfun/brainless/etc. threads. /s
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Then by that reasoning Plague, Oni, Demogorgon, Ghostface, Pig, Pyramid Head, Twins, Clown and Legion are all bloated because they have multiple aspects to their kit that help them down survivors.
Wraith has speed, stealth and a lunge. Freddy still has an uncounterable chase power, teleportation, dreamworld, and passive slowdown from waking up either through clocks or the wake up action, and he also used to counter BT. None of that is comparable to Wraith, who has some strong add-ons that are, nevertheless, addons. And on top of that he requires a shiteload more skill and effort than even current Freddy because he can't mindlessly run at survivors and instantly teleport to gens that they're on, and furthermore unlike other killers with strong add-ons such as Demogorgon, Oni and Plague, Wraiths game-changers are all purples and therefore not even remotely present in every trial like Barbs Glasses and Black Heart are with Demo, they're more like Pigs head pop build.
I've yet to go agasint a Wraith that felt genuinely unfair. Predrop the weak pallets and he's as harmless as Pig, who coincidentally has the same counterplay. The only reason to lose is shite teammates, which I'm fortunate to not have to deal with all that often.
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If anything they might make his visibility when invisible further to make up for how fact he can move that and maybe a final addon pass
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How is his basekit bloated? Wraith has one of the simplest kits around. He's fast and hard to see while cloaked, he uncloaks slowly and reveals himself, and he lunges. That's it. That's his power. Freddy's kit was bloated because he had so many aspects to his power - dream world management and alarm clock slowdown, gen teleportation, loop slowdown or fake pallets. The nerf didn't change any of that, just made him less effective at some of those aspects.
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To be honest, I think Nurse is one of the most engaging killers there is to play against. Unless she's running IF and hard slugging, she's got some of the most fun chases in the game. It's pure mindgames on both sides.
Fair about me misreading, but personally I think high addon variety, and different playstyles enabled by different addons, is a good thing. Addon sets like Freddy's, Pyramid Head's, and Billy's, where addons don't really change anything about how you play and either tweak numbers or are unviable, are bad for a killer and just ensure everyone plays them the exact same way. Ones that unlock a bunch of different playstyle options like Wraith's, Hag's, and Clown's should be the norm. Do certain addons within those sets need to be looked at, probably, but I think addons should be 'bloated.' It's not like you can run all of them at once.
I don't think perks come into play here, since that's the same pool for every killer. Wraith is good at knocking people off gens if he's running regression perks, but I don't think he's any better at it than, say, Blight. Tinkerer/Ruin/Undying is going to be problematic for survivors on any boosted mobility killer.
Also, pallets aren't Wraith's only counterplay. He's extremely vulnerable to windows where the midpoint between both sides is longer than his lunge range, and unlike pallets, they're not exhaustible resources. You can waste a lot of his time at shack/LT walls/buildings if you play them right. If you're caught at a small loop and he starts uncloaking to lunge around one side, don't stick to the loop, just turn around and W away in the opposite direction.
Overall, I think Wraith's lunge should probably be reduced somewhat (pig dash + being able to out-race survivors to pallets isn't good), but otherwise I think he's in a really good spot and I'd hate to see him cast back to obscurity. He really needed the map pressure speed boost with his terrible chasing power and bad stealth... he just somehow got better chasing power out of the deal too.
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I've already stated in another thread that I don't see that much "practical application" difference between having to fight against the new Wraith and Spirit. I have to use the same techniques against both. Spirit has a higher ceiling, but Wraith appears to be easier to learn for the Killer Player. So what you have is a high mobility Killer whose ability to down is merely a matter of time, and not that much of it. The main defense appears to be dropping the pallet early and hoping to have a LOT of them. :)
I'm not a "the sky is falling" sort of person. Anyone who has read my posts will know I'm not particularly alarmist and will almost always defer to the notion that it takes a decent bit of time to really get a good feel on whether a particular release is good/balanced yet. I don't feel that way this time. Why? Because I'm watching people ten Ranks worse, relatively new Players decimate Red/Purple squads of Survivors. The chief issue is that Wraith is so EASY to play. At least with Spirit you have to learn to "listen" and get the basics of your trick down. Wraith doesn't have this hurdle. He is a point and shoot Killer; that's it.
He only just got this buff and we are already seeing a shift. This means without any real time in grade or practice, Wraith is shooting to the front of the line in metrics. How is that going to look in a month or two when people have really gotten to practice with him? The issue for those fighting against the Wraith is that there isn't any more counter play to learn over time. Thus, the Wraith can continue to get better, while the Survivors hit the ceiling of what they can do to counter him. Do you see my point? Right now I'm going against the grain of a LOT of people, many of them time-honored veterans here. I hope I am wrong; I will be happy to be wrong. I just don't think I am in this case. The margin for error in balance with high mobility Killers is very small; I think they overshot the mark with Wraith.
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but you dont understand, I MUST STUN AND LOOP!!!!
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NO. I'm sorry but I have not seen an OP wraith, the biggest issue once again is bad survivors being at ranks they dont belong. So many times I'm lasting 5-10times longer than my team, that's not how it should be. Wraith is balanced, all he has is faster speed. That lunge always use to be a thing but you just notice it more as windstorm is base meaning every wraith has it not just the smarter ones using a good addon. Alot of killers need wraith treatment. Wait till mmr. Hes an M1 killer
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If it's predropping less than half the pallets, I'm not so sure there's an issue. Otherwise we should be unironically nerfing Pig.
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Unironically nerfing Pig are sad words by themselves.
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It's the free hit scenario that drives me up the wall.
They can change a killer if they want. But if they're going to create a situation in which the one that's the fastest and least visible can see auras, immediately and almost imperceptibly hone in on his target, become visible to attempt his attack in complete silence, AND increase the chance of him landing his attack, that's about when I raise my hand and say "I think it's reasonable to say that we've entered 'cheap' territory at this point".
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Very well-verbalized. Completely agree.
I'm a relatively new player. When I went against the Wraith a month ago, it felt fair. Now it doesn't. When I caught the blur or heard the bell, I knew it was time to run and I hoped for the best. I was at least tipped off that "hey, he's close enough now that you better not make a mistake getting away". Now, I'm not even given the chance to make a mistake. If I notice the blur it's already too late and I'm taking the hit anyway.
That's even IF I happen to catch the blur, since he can just uncloak silently from behind whatever nearby object may be obscuring my view or any of the directions I may not happen to be looking at during the 1.5 seconds that it takes for him to go from cloaked to swinging. I guess it's either that or I spend the first half of the match running around downing every pallet and then spend the remainder of the match spinning the camera in circles looking for the blur while simultaneously trying to focus on not screwing up generator skillchecks. There's no balance, no counterplay. Just complete guesswork.
The most common complaint I see about Spirit is that she has little to no tell, that there's hardly any way to anticipate or counter her ability to suddenly appear right next to you and smack you. So hey, um..............
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He’s fine, I feel like it’s a bit of buffed Bubba syndrome, where people think he is overpowered but in reality they just haven’t adapted yet. My only problem with him is that I seem to have to play against him 39374772839x a night.
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He's almost completely invisible, moves almost completely silently, can travel faster than anyone else in the game, is able to see the auras of his targets, can uncloak and enter his attack state without making a sound, and if he's within a few feet of his target when he uncloaks - which all of these abilities make highly likely - he can negate any ground that they gain by rushing forward immediately after uncloaking.
What else is required to be considered overpowered?
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Well actually, he can only see auras with that one add-on, and I think we can all agree that add-on is busted af. Same with silent bell, which requires an ultra rare add-on, however it is also busted. I think base-kit Wraith is balanced, but those add-ons need to be looked at.
If he's eating your ass you gotta make sure you aren't in a dead zone.
And erm... Billy, Blight, Spirit, and Oni all move way faster than Wraith, even with both of his top Windstorm add-ons.
Here are all of their movement speeds from using their powers in their base-kit. Wraith's maximum speed is listed below.
Wraith - 150%, 165% maximized with Windstorm add-ons
Billy and Blight - 230%
Spirit - 176%
Oni - 195.5%
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It's not because Wraith is strong. It's because he feels cheap to people. I don't agree, but that's the issue. Same with Spirit and Freddy. It's because they feel cheap to face.
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Billy and Blight - 230%
Spirit - 176%
Oni - 195.5%
Unless I'm mistaken (I've never played as Spirt and only did Blight once for a ritual, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct me) those speeds are achieved during special circumstances; limited power bursts. They can't freely and easily just roam all over the entire map the whole match at those speeds.
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That's why they have abilities that allow them to down survivors easily, compared to Wraith who is countered by predropping pallets, not going in deadzones, and using good windows.
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There is a caveat though, a pretty big one and it bears directly on the "ease of use" problem with Wraith:
Wraith - 150%, 165% maximized with Windstorm add-ons - CONSTANT with no downside due to speed boost of lunge on uncloak.
Billy and Blight - 230% - TERRIBLE Turn ratios and/or must aim for terrain in the case of Blight to bounce. Easier to dodge.
Spirit - 176% - SHORT, relatively, durations and cannot see (must listen and/or track) during period.
Oni - 195.5% - SHORT, relatively, durations and less effective turn ratio.
*I cut and pasted what you said and annotated differences above. The point being that the uncloak time is entirely offset by the improved lunge coming out of it. In fact, all the the Wraith has to do is come into literal body contact (often done as a body block against the Survivor) and it is nearly impossible to avoid the hit. There is a point at which the speed difference has ZERO practical difference. Let me put it this way, is there REALLY any difference for the Survivor between 150-165% and say the Spirit's 176% speed when BOTH allow the Killer to overtake a head start, pass the Survivor and make the hit? The only REAL difference is the size of the head start the Killer can overcome, and let's tell the truth and shame the devil here, the Wraith is never having to overcome much (if any) of a head start anymore. :)
The only head start the Wraith ever faces is the range at which Spine Chill activates. If the Survivor (with that Perk) IMMEDIATELY starts to move toward some kind of defensive tile, they "might" make it. I use the word "might" because it takes optimal position and having the Wraith coming from the right direction. At 150% speed, the Wraith will cover that head start so quickly it isn't even funny. I'm not trying to be alarmist here. I've just done the math, played with the geometry, and started trying to figure out how I can (in a reliable way) overcome the new obstacle. That is the kind of Player I am. No matter how I crunch the numbers the only counter for a Solo is pure luck, i.e. enough unused Pallets and vaults to buy time and hope the Wraith breaks off. The only OTHER counter play requires "old school" Survivor teamwork.
So let's get into the real nitty gritty here. Fighting the new Wraith requires the entire team of Survivors to constantly be protecting one another. That is the ONLY non-luck counter play against him. Protection hits, stealing chases, blinds/burns, and so on will work. It is possible, but unlikely. In short, the days when you could rely on a Solo Queue to provide you enough people who play this way are long gone. It means you need a SWF straddling the line between altruism and Generators with very little margin for error. Have I put this to the test already? You betcha! Against a well-coordinated Solo Queue of the highest quality, or a SWF willing to take protection hits, swap hooks, and all that Jazz you have real counter play other than drop that pallet early. So again I'm faced with a simple, unavoidable truth; the only counters to the new Wraith are exactly the same as those to the Spirit whom everyone complains about already.
My conclusions, having tested in game, done the geometry and simple math, and spent many hours theorizing and testing non-conventional counters is that giving the base speed buff, the true invisibility beyond a certain range, and the superior lunge coming out of cloak was simply too much. At least when he didn't have "true" invisibility, a sharp-eyed alert person could get a slightly longer head start. Or when the lunge wasn't so damn effective, they could mind game or counter play at the loops. The truth is I have better results fighting a Spirit than I do a Wraith. I know that is going to rub people the wrong way, but I'm forced to use the SAME limited tactics and counter play and the Wraith is simply less affected by them. I have faith the metrics are going to very quickly tell the story and this is situation that is only going to become more and more clear as the months go on. For now, your best way to fight a Wraith is not to get made in the first place. You have to go PURE stealth and hope he doesn't have the add-on when he swings past.
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I actually can't believe we are at the point where we are complaining about wraith.
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I agree; I certainly never expected to be at this point. :) And I wouldn't say I'm complaining. I'm not much of a naysayer by nature. I'm more proactive, and prefer to try to work through my problems myself. That is what I've been doing, but not too that much effect. I'm hoping for others to provide me with some additional counter play that I've overlooked or they have discovered that I have not. That is why I'm so thorough when I post, so people know what I've already tried and done.
I am quite hopeful that I've missed something because I'm well-aware that THIS Wraith is here to stay awhile. Changes don't happen that fast. It is adapt or die. So I'm not so much complaining as adding to the discussion and hoping to learn something new I can use. If I find something that works, I'm going to post about it right away. I'm kind of hopeful, although I haven't gotten ANY Wraiths in the PtB yet to test it, that Flash Bang and Blast Mine will light burn a Wraith. Me and mine are trying to test more and more group builds using flashlights to try and knock him out and slow him down without getting hit in the process.
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Just make all seeing purple swap rarities with all seeing pink and then you will see it a lot less. Wraith's base power is fine and in my opinion iridescent add ons should be really powerful and not garbage like Pyramid head's
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Yeah so do killers feel about facing god pallets that have 0 mindgames or risk to them. Yet devs won't suddently remove all god pallets just because they feel unfair to play against.
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You're going to get hit predropping unsafe pallets against current Wraith. The issue is exactly that. He can respect every unsafe pallet and 100% success rate get a hit on it regardless of input from the survivor because of the buff. The complaints are from a loss of interaction between survivor-killer here.
Does it make Wraith overpowered? No.
Are survivors deeming it as unfun? Yes.
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