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Removing the option of Camping
Comments
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Well no dip if every killer in the whole game played the same strategy it would get boring. And you can look for the hex while doing gens. Shocker I know right!? Also back on to what you were saying about "stoping the timer while the killer is near" what if a survivor was hiding by the hook and the killer KNEW that they were hiding but couldn't do anything about it because people got mad abt camping. And ofc I'm gonna say it's an easy strategy to counter because it is. There's nothing wrong with having trouble with some strategys but when you make it everyone's problem it gets annoying. "Literally every counterargument against camping comes down to 'just make the game worse'." Yes it does, so I have no idea why your trying to change the game to get rid of a very valid strategy.
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And another thing, think about how the killers would abuse it especially if they were teaming with other survivors. The killer could easily stand by the hook the whole game so you don't die and have to eventually suicide making the game no fun. Oh but wait, when you get to the second faze your stuck there until I DC because the timer won't run out.
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So i think the big disconnect here, is that for killers, every solution to camping survivors seem to favor is "make the game worse". NONE of these threads that get popular have solutions that won't hit legitimate non face camping killers, and none of them have solutions for new/bad killers. You have to think like a game dev, you can't just say "let's make the struggle time longer if the killer is near" "ok that's a good point if ANOTHER survivor is in terror radius, or a chase is happening let the meter still go down" "oh okay, if there's a gen close to the hook the killer is protecting let the struggle time still decrease also" etc... by the time you've hit all the abuse cases you have an incredibly complicated rule set for what can be done near hooks. Now you have to MESSAGE this ruleset to players well enough that new players to your game can understand it. Complicated rule set with bad messaging isn't going to stop new killers from face camping, they aren't going to know what they're doing is wrong. Then even experienced killers you need to tell them WHEN what they are doing is increasing hook slow down, but then that's new information too, what if they know X of the cases where they are allowed to be hooked aren't true, and only 1 could be, so now suddenly the killer is alerted to the presence of a close by survivor or something. None of this even mentions the fact that the solution DOESN'T EVEN STOP A TRUE TOXIC FACE CAMPER, unless survivors feel like "spend even longer on first hook then maybe escape in end game collapse if my team mates are altruistic and have BT" is better than "die on first hook"
I'm picking on the solution because, despite it being tried twice and removed for not working, it's a bad suggestion. All the survivor suggestions come at it from the realm of "make camping literally impossible or PUNISH THE TOXIC SCUM WHO DARE COME NEAR A HOOK SO HARD THEY WOULDN'T DARE". I'm sorry to say those solutions aren't going to work, you have to retain player agency, you can't make the system so convoluted no one(or especially new players) understands exactly what is happening around the hooked player. You HAVE to accept that camping will always be POSSIBLE, the solution to the problem is to build the game in such a way that it's not the best move often, and when it's NOT the best move that the killer A. knows it's not the best move and B. knows enough to try a better move.
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What some of these people don't understand, and you nailed it on the head, is that where there is a will, there is a way. Toxic players will continue to be toxic just for the sake of it, regardless of what the rules say. Meanwhile when camping is actually needed, for instance during the EGC and the killer is trying to secure their first and what could be their only kill in the game near the end and not trying to be toxic, you're then punishing them for trying to complete their one and only objective which is to kill.
Camping is an annoying strategy, yes I agree. Anyone who has played any kind of online PvP game has experienced this in one form or another. But again sometimes it is a strategy that needs to be used. Snipers in FPS games for instance, are some of the most frustrating people to face against, especially if they're really good at calling their shots. But it's the strategy that best suits them. Running and gunning with a sniper rifle in most games isn't really the most optimal thing you can do 9.9/10 times. But like in DBD, in those games it's something that they are able to do that are within the confines of the rules. It's not hacking, it's not cheating, it's not exploiting a bug that breaks the game, it's a tool that is available equally for all players to utilize if they choose to use it. You can't really put a ban on something like that.
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And you can look for the hex while doing gens.
Locate NOED while doing gens?
You do know how NOED works, right?
Also back on to what you were saying about "stoping the timer while the killer is near" what if a survivor was hiding by the hook and the killer KNEW that they were hiding but couldn't do anything about it
It's the same concept as 'what if the killer gets looped around the hook?'.
If you get looped that long, or if you spend that much time trying to find a hidden survivor and failing, do you really deserve to win? This is a really killer-centric viewpoint where you believe a killer should have an inalienable right to prevent an unhook, even if the survivor they're facing is outplaying them.
EDIT: Also, if a survivor can keep the killer busy for that long, then them doing it near the hook is beneficial to the killer, because then there's one chump on the hook that's not doing anything, as opposed to the killer being run around elsewhere and all three other survivors being active.
And ofc I'm gonna say it's an easy strategy to counter because it is.
That's missing the point.
So far, the idea hasn't been very complex. Slow the hook progression if the killer is too close to the hook, unless the killer is in a chase or the fifth gen is done. Shouldn't be too hard to signify either, we have a UI element for the hookstate progression that's visible to both survivor and killers, you can plant the info there.
And it's not like there's no other unexplained game mechanisms. Bloodlust was never declared in the tutorial, neither is the co-op repair speed penalty. Which is confusing marked with a fast forward icon.
DOESN'T EVEN STOP A TRUE TOXIC FACE CAMPER
Here's the thing: Solo play exists. Without coordination and communication, it's actually not unlikely for camping to be effective because the timing is way more narrow than people like to pass it off as. Most campers still secure more than one kill because you can't communicate to teammates that they need to split off onto other gens and rush it out. Even if everyone knows how to handle camping, if they're not fast enough on figuring out that the killer is camping, that's an extra kill. If they don't know about co-op penalties, that's an extra kill. And if the hooked survivor is dead before the fifth gen is done, that could even be a 3-gen due to reckless genrushing.
People are saying it's very easy to counter, and on an individual level it is. But every single teammate needs to know this too and even then there's some pitfalls that can cost you too much time.
Yes, there's toxic facecampers that will never be dissuaded. But there's also plenty of campers that do it because, down the line, there's a big bracket of ranks where it is an effective strategy.
And this also ignores the other aspects of the game that are held in a stranglehold by camping, as mentioned before. Can't slow down gen speeds as long as camping is a thing, after all.
it's a tool that is available equally for all players to utilize if they choose to use it.
That is not an argument that holds water in regards to balance or gameplay design, as it would've allowed old DS as well.
Again, if all killers were to start camping, the game would be dead within a week.
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Well then it's a good thing that not every killer camps then huh? Kind of because if you go against a team that knows how to counter it, you will lose =). I say this as a killer who does camp out of desperation from time to time depending which way the match is swinging.
As for what you said about looping killers around hooks. Bruh...you know how many times I will get survivors hanging around me at a hook that jump in and out to try to bait me away from a hook so that one of the other survivors who I see hiding behind a nearby rock, can ninja in behind me and get the unhook? Again what you're proposing has been tested and survivors screwed it up by taking advantage of it. Quit blaming killers for things that aren't their fault.
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Given that they nerfed DS, they should also remove the ridiculous disconnect penalty. People still disconnect, and the system can't tell the difference between disconnects from their end (which shouldn't happen, and if happen and they can't control it, they shouldn't have the lame penalty) and people disconnecting - which is also legit. Nobody has to put up with toxic trashy players.
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"So far, the idea hasn't been very complex. Slow the hook progression if the killer is too close to the hook, unless the killer is in a chase or the fifth gen is done. Shouldn't be too hard to signify either, we have a UI element for the hookstate progression that's visible to both survivor and killers, you can plant the info there.
And it's not like there's no other unexplained game mechanisms. Bloodlust was never declared in the tutorial, neither is the co-op repair speed penalty. Which is confusing marked with a fast forward icon."
I actually think in general, bad information display is a huge problem in the game. There's tons of stuff I never in a million years would have noticed without other people pointing them out. Heck the current mechanic around hooks, where you get less blood points for hanging around hooked survivors as killer, I only know about because someone mentioned it. Much like that blood point loss, the information has to not only be available, but if you want it to actually convince someone not to camp it has to be actually ALERT them to the fact that they are being punished.
And as for the it's not that complex, it's not that complex YET, and your description I already disagree, it needs more cases where the hook state goes down at normal speed. Chief among them is if there are regressing gens nearby(or gens that could be kicked), pallets to break, etc...
"Here's the thing: Solo play exists. Without coordination and communication, it's actually not unlikely for camping to be effective because the timing is way more narrow than people like to pass it off as. Most campers still secure more than one kill because you can't communicate to teammates that they need to split off onto other gens and rush it out. Even if everyone knows how to handle camping, if they're not fast enough on figuring out that the killer is camping, that's an extra kill. If they don't know about co-op penalties, that's an extra kill. And if the hooked survivor is dead before the fifth gen is done, that could even be a 3-gen due to reckless genrushing.
People are saying it's very easy to counter, and on an individual level it is. But every single teammate needs to know this too and even then there's some pitfalls that can cost you too much time."
I also think you are overstating the general effectiveness of face camping, and the inherent RISKS of doing it which are huge. This kind of play can be punished super hard, if the survivors just finish the gens they're on and work together to get the hooked survivor off the hook(BT is insanely common) you can end up with something like 2-3 gens done and still get someone off the hook for either a hook trade or a couple hits. Barring something like a one shot down killer in a basement(which i would probably agree basements are their own category of questionable design) I don't think even the hardest of face camping is as unstoppable as survivors tend to make it out to be.
I ALSO think that entire paragraph leads more to my point, the tools to counter this strategy exist, BEFORE hard nerfing killers or adding convoluted sets of rules to what exactly killers are "allowed" to do, we should be rewarding, promoting, and teaching the counters to this play style. Hard to tell if a killer is camping? Let's put a huge BP bonus on kindred so more people take it, it's already considered by some high end players. Requires communication? People have been pitching a ping system/some sort of base communication on this board, that sounds great. crappy for the person being camped? Lets give them a bunch of bonus BP for any time a killer spends next to t hem as hook, still sucks but they can at least feel like they are contributing. Heck give them more bonus points if they're allies get away/do a bunch of gens while they are camped so they are directly benefitted. Heck, the new flash bang perk might be great for this too. In the same idea space, a new item could be added for survivors similar to the flash bang, one time use, hard blind/deafness that doesn't cause the killer to drop someone, make sure one always spawns in a chest somewhere on the map. I just think the design space is both more interesting with constructive design around this problem rather restrictive. Pretty much every suggestion for this problem by survivors is, what can we take away from killers, or what how can we punish them for the behavior. I think there are solutions to this problem that can be found by making the game more interesting, and expanding player options and agency, and it's disappointing that more people aren't in that boat.
edit: man the more i think about the flash bang perk the more i like it, a perk similar to leons that charges up based on how long long allies have been hooked, and the longer the same ally is hooked the faster it charges, it gives you a one time use item that basically insures a hook escape.
edit again: could be a blind followed by X seconds of the killer can't see scratch marks or something. That might be too strong for non hook saves though, just a late game universal "blind + no scratch marks for X seconds" might be too strong.
edit the third: oh maybe instead of removing scratch marks, it ADDS scratch marks that last like 10 seconds longer than the blind to the entire area the blind effected.
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Camaredy the perk from steve, not exactly sure how it is spelled correctly.
Also no, doesnt make sense, its a completly biased changed towards survivors, maybe you should play killer then you might change your view.
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no way...
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You mean you actually have to try to play well to win in this game? jfc what a liberty!
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Ok what your all saying at this point is all honestly jumbling around in my head. Camping is a a strategy, a good strategy in certain situations. Just because a strategy is good does not mean it should be taken away. If we take away camping the killer mains be coming after survivors strategys next. You CAN overcome camping, I understand it might not be the easiest thing for all people but it isn't going to be taken away anytime soon. I know you don't like me saying how easy camping can be to overcome but it truly is. If you take the time to learn how to beat it you'll see that camping is a strategy you'll look forward to because it will be easy to beat.
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they just need to buff the losing bloodpoints while camping the hook. It was a good idea but the penalty is so low killers don't care. I would also say that the penalty should be turned off when gates are powered
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Camping is a strategy that bad Survivor decisions reward. Biggest thing to mitigate camping is to attribute more importance to your first health state. Avoiding the killer long enough to secure a pip is reflective of your ability, getting saved is a reflection of your teammates ability to act against the killer. All the perks are for additional chances not a guarantee.
Can't have a paused timer anyway, it's been done and tested. Survivors screwed themselves out of that chance by abusing it to a game breaking level.
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