This is what an accurate MMR system does to killers...
^ These are the kinds of games you get from implementing MMR in DBD.
CoconutRTS is like a top 1% Huntress without question. Could he be using better perks? For sure. Could this look different with better add-ons? A little, maybe.
But in this game, he gets 1 hook in the time it takes the survivors to complete all generators and 99 the exit gates. If the survivors didn't get greedy trying to get everyone out, they easily had the opportunity to open the gates and leave, making this a 1 hook game.
This is one of the better characters in DBD, played on one of the better killer maps, by a man who literally made a name for himself playing Huntress. The whole point of MMR is to generate good, well-balanced games, and if you ask me this didn't remotely resemble a well-balanced game, despite the players all being of similar skill level.
If this is the reward for getting good at killer in DBD, I think I'll just quit instead.
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Honestly they need to swallow their pride and outsource matchmaking. They focus on so much cool content to bring people in, but matchmaking is why people leave. It should be their main priority.
Its so tough in a 4v1 game, I dont know who could even do it. Things like 16 vs 4 perks is ridiculous.
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And the point is?
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"My favorite content creator lost. Therefore, the game is broken."
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The point is that DBD isn't a game that benefits from a hyper-accurate skill-based matchmaking because it has terrible balance.
This game has been balanced under a paradigm of incredibly inaccurate matchmaking where you can queue into a red-rank lobby and 3/4 of the survivors are barely competent at looping. If you're very likely to face 4 great loopers in every match above a certain MMR, the game basically needs a total overhaul in balancing.
Not once did I say he's my favorite content creator, I know of him and happened upon this video on youtube. Actually watch the video and tell me you would have fun playing this game if you were averaging 1-3 hooks in what should have been a <5 minute match.
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Your post confuses me. You're saying that someone as killer, who is a great player with the killer of choice, on a map that feels advantageous to this killer, lost. So should the MMR not let these survivors play? Are you supposing they should have gone against a higher level killer?
Ultimately, at the bleeding edge, there will be outliers where there are just groups of survivors who can beat a single killer. Likewise, I'm sure there are times where a group is completely stymied by a superlative killer.
None of this, to me, should reflect on the MMR system being tried at the time? How would there have been better results with the 'normal' rank matching system? The killer would have gotten an easier team but this team of survivors would have just waited forever because they can beat even a top-tier killer?
Confusing.
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So once you reach a certain skill level as killer you're just doomed to face a constant barrage of unenjoyable matches where survivors push out 5 generators in 4 minutes?
When did I ever say MMR should not let these survivors play, that's you jumping to a conclusion. If there was a more skilled killer for these survivors to face, they probably would have faced them. We're talking about a killer who has thousands of hours and is waaaaay better than average; how much better a killer can these survivors realistically face?
I 100% agree that the current matchmaking is way too relaxed... but this isn't the solution, or at least not the totality of it. This video just serves as evidence of how unrealistically difficult this game is for killers at the top level.
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I can sense the sarcasm, but this is quite literally a high-MMR killer against high-MMR survivors. He made a few mistakes early, but he isn't a newbie killer by any stretch. He's using mindgames where possible, finding survivors quickly, and making good throws that get dodged by good predictions from the survivors (mostly, there's a mistake here and there, but is the guy supposed to literally play perfectly?). The result is a 4 minute game with 1 hook, or at least that's what it should be if the survivors just left when they had the chance.
If I read your sarcasm right, MMR is fine, I just need to always bring the best most meta perks and add-ons, never make a single mistake, never predict wrong, and maybe I'll be able to manage more than 1 kill every so often, as long as I always pick a top tier killer and also random onto a decent killer map? Sounds great and also very fun 😀
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if the killer does extremely poorly, then MMR put him against survivors above his skill level, either because the queues were too long and forced unbalanced matches or because the stats available to correctly determine MMR for the players hadn't been collected yet.
The MMR test BHVR just did was a test. BHVR may be looking for feedback from the test, or maybe this was all about data collection and has nothing to do with the quality of the matches we had but BHVR told us about the test in the spirit of transparency so players didn't feel betrayed.
I want a working skill-based matchmaking system in this game because I think new players get especially screwed right now. I'm not great at the game, but I have a lot of hours. I get bad matches all the time. Would I prefer fun and challenging matches that aren't one side steamrolling the other? Yes. But having a lot of hours means I at least understand what's going on. Newbies don't have that, they just have a miserable time. Skill-based matchmaking needs to happen if this game wants to keep new players.
And the whole point of skill-based matchmaking is that it collects data and tries to put players against other players of the same skill. If someone repeatedly has bad games, they're obviously not where they need to be and their rank will adjust. Someone's MMR is not immediately chosen and then permanent for the rest of eternity.
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They'd have to rebalance how Survivors do their objectives. They keep disabling MMR which prevents us from forcing the devs to acknowledge the issue.
The main issue is how 3 Survivors on 3 gens is the most optimal way to genrush. Something needs to change, either with more steps, more objectives, something. Because you will DEFINITELY need to be playing Nurse or Spirit at high MMR, and be ready to deal with tournament teams.
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I agree 100%, I don't want anyone to have a bad time because the current matchmaking system is pitting players with vastly different skill levels together.
But regarding this video being a case of the survivors outmatching the killer, that's just really not the case. The survivors were good, and the killer player is one of the best Huntress players out there. At the end of the day some loops are just time-consuming no matter how good you are, and getting hits at some loops requires prediction. In this game in question, he tried to make a few low-risk predictions, didn't get them, and those are the only opportunities he got because the game ended in 4 minutes.
You can nitpick some of his plays here or there, but are we really saying 1-2 true mistakes (i.e. not missed predictions) is or should be the difference between a competitive/fun 8 hook game, and
1 hook game? That's ludicrous imo.0 -
That sounds less like a matchmaking problem and more like an RNG/map/balance problem. If/when skill-based matchmaking works correctly and goes live, it should hopefully give the devs the ability to pinpoint problems with balance in the game. Right now, it's really difficult to balance survivors and killers because there are so many factors, and the [BAD WORD] matchmaking overshadows them all. New players being stomped by experienced players is the expected outcome, there's nothing to learn from that, and attempting to balance the game around it would absolutely break it. Hopefully skill-based matchmaking will actually go live and BHVR will then be able to make balance changes that improve everyone's overall experience.
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This is my feeling exactly; generators can be completed way too quickly in relation to the average chase time when the survivors are good and can efficiently use the resources on the map. Without making chases totally unfair for survivors (cough cough Nurse and Spirit) the only way to address this is to slow down gens, and that sucks because absolutely no one likes sitting on a generator holding M1. It's stupid boring.
If MMR is going to be implemented similar to how it was in this test then this needs to be addressed, because 4 minute games where generators get pushed out lightning quick and the killer has to average like 20 seconds per chase to have a shot sounds like awful gameplay.
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I wish I shared your optimism, but frankly nothing about this game's history suggests that BHVR is capable/willing to address balance issues in a timely fashion. We're talking about a game where one killer can throw bottles to make survivors move a little slower while another killer can literally teleport through walls. If they implement MMR in its current state, or something close to it, by the time they actually get around to addressing these balance issues the game will be long dead.
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If this is a top 1% player, I honestly fail to this has a problem, that means the system is working. Not to mention the he manages to turn the game around
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This mandates meta Killers and explains why anti-chase potential is best in the game, with map mobility coming in 2nd. Look at Nurse, Spirit, Deathslinger, and Blight. Look very carefully at these characters. Look at their powers, their natural movement speeds. You'll notice what I'm talking about as a result.)
However, I actually think we should intentionally shoot ourselves in the foot and force MMR through. This is so everyone sees the glaring issues in the game's balance, and the casual setting is forced to care about the issues that competitive tournaments reveal. We'd see much more central opinions on DBD's balance if we did.
This is especially needed if the devs want this game to attract and maintain newcomers, and they want to keep this game alive for years to come. (They also need to switch up the core gameplay too! It's boring and stale.)
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Oh, trust me, I'm not actually optimistic in terms of anything DbD-related. It's just that, if balance changes are going to happen, that's the order in which they have to occur. Otherwise, balance is impossible.
Skill-based matchmaking needs to happen. Balance changes need to happen. And if BHVR fails to do those things, the game deserves to die.
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Only because the Survivors got greedy, supposedly. I haven't watched the video yet though.
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Basically the end of the game is the survivors 99'ing the doors while one person goes to save the hooked person, that person gets downed before the unhook, repeat until Coconut manages to get a 4 man slug with a 99'd gate, all off the back of a single hook. It ends in a 4k, but if the survivors just abandoned the hooked survivor and left it was a 1 hook, 1 kill game. Not the least bit interesting or fun until the survivors kinda threw, and even then I bet it wasn't all that gratifying a win.
The system is absolutely working, and that's the problem. This game has been inadvertently balanced around the average lobby having 1-2 weaker survivors for the killer to prey on, and now that that's no longer the case the whole system is bound to fall apart without changes to address this. As much as it sucks to say, creating well-balanced lobbies in terms of player skill will kill this game in its current state of balance.
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Having matchmaking will allow to make it easier to balance the game, especially since devs use statistics. They are not going to just slap MMR and say "okay mission accomplished, no more balance needed". currently games often end in stomps due to the skill range between killer and survivor.
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I absolutely hope you're right, but I have 0 faith in BHVR to do this in a timely fashion. I predict this game to be thoroughly miserable for killers for months or years after MMR gets implemented. I honest to god hope I'm wrong, and BHVR can frame this quote if they rebalance this game to fit MMR and do it well.
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Well, to be honest, I assumed that this was what competitive or skilled playing was all about?
I am not a competitive player nor very skilled. I play to have fun. I don't try to be highly skilled so I'm not sure what it's like to be in those ranks. Yes, I was jumping to a conclusion - one that seems natural based on your complaint. What are you proposing should happen to highly skilled killers when the only apparent opponents based on skill level are highly skilled survivors? This was the crux of my confusion about your post.
From what I understand about such systems, if that killer 'loses' a match or two against the top-tier survivors, they would then end up against less skilled survivors and not have such a 'barrage of unenjoyable matches'. Should survivors likewise have to face a 'barrage of unenjoyable matches' where the killer wipes everyone out in 4 minutes?
It sounds like this would be a problem with any competitive game or experience where individuals strive to attain top-tier skills. Eventually, it's not about fun but about how you feel about your rank and maintaining that. Maybe the game needs more randomness at higher skill levels to keep things mixed up.
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These survivors are going to be in the matchmaking pool in any case. Who else would you pair them with?
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Hard to say since he didn't bring any regression or add-ons.
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Well, coconut for sure is one of the best killer player in this game. Of course the MMR should match him and all the other top level killers to the best survivors.
Once this is achieved, BHVR can finally start balancing the game. Balancing the game now with all the different skill levels mixed together in red ranks makes zero sense and will not bring any usable results.. With our current matchmaking I was versing potatoes after potatoes after the MMR test ended. Stats would show BHVR they need to buff survivors instantly ;)
Honestly, it gets quite boring seeing all those content creators with several thousand of hours just destroying regular casual survivor groups one by one. And on the other hand you have SWF groups with combined 20k+ hours doing the same to 99% of the killers they face.
But after the MMR has been running for some time, BHVR's stats will show them, how busted real high-level gameplay in DBD really is and we have a higher chance to get the adjustments we need.
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No denying MMR is a mess, but there's also the issue of: what do you do when you're at red ranks and going against other red ranks? What else is there, except to put you against lower ranks, which wouldn't be fair to them at all? That is the downside to being red rank: there is nowhere else to go, and no other opponents to give you, other than red ranks.
Honestly, this is why the current win conditions for both sides in this game are wretched. If the only way you can belive you "won" a match is by killing or escaping, you're going to spend a LOT of time angry in this game. If the only way you can believe you "won" a match is by pipping up.... that only works in lower ranks. Once you're in the red rank range? Pips matter less and less. If folks' win conditions shifted to "did I earn X number of bloodpoints?" that would help a LOT. I notice that in the above match? The Killer earned over 20k, while two of the survivors didn't even hit 10k.
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