Why Skill MMR isn't healthy to the game
I am convinced that the introduction of SMMR will lead to a situation in which matches become even more unplayable. How? Suppose people who start derank are starting to be matched with red rank killers. Many people will say that it is very good, but you have to think about it. Would it not lead to a situation where the matches will be full of afk players or suiciders? The answer is rather simple: YES.
Now let's ask ourselves why people derank. There are many answers here. I will try to outline the most important ones.
One of the first is the easier games. Surprised here: Pikachu.jpg Not everyone is playing this game for skill. Lots of people want to play for fun. When I come back tired from work, I don't want to play sweaty tryhards, so derank to green ranks like many other players.
The next answer is the lack of variety among killers. Only the top 5 killers are played in the red ranks. Billy, Legion, Mayers will not meet here... I could still go on. If more players from red ranks play with different characters, I don't see a problem here.
The third answer is similar to the second one, but with the perks. Want to see every match with only 4 builds? Because by introducing SMMR it will end there. End of Meme Builds... The end of 95% perks...
So to sum up: Will the game get worse after the introduction of SMMR? Probably yes. Is it possible to do anything to prevent the situation that I am presenting? I think yes. How? Introducing an additional mode for players. Something like ranked matches from other games. But people who want to play in this mode will be rewarded with more BP or XP. Feel free to discuss whether SMMR is a good change ;D
Comments
-
To me the only benefit from SBMM,MMR, whatever you wanna call it is that it showcases how unbalanced, broken, terribly designed and executed DbD is. These Matchmaking Systems can't work on a game that relies so heavily on RNG, you never play the same Map twice, you play RNG variations of the same Map this alone means there's no consistency for MMR to be meaningful. The same Map with different variations will have different results. We need the Maps to be consistant so we can Balance everything else.
For us to have MMR they need to redo the game, get rid of Map RNG, get rid of the variable solutions to Map RNG like Bloodlust for example, get rid of Breakable Walls. We need to redesign the maps to be fair not prettier. MMR is a small step that BHVR doesn't want to take because they are obligated to follow that small step with gigantic steps towards Balancing the game, creating a REAL Competitive scene, Balancing Perks, Balancing base kit of the vast majority of killers.
I doubt BHVR wants or has the people that can do this. I'm pretty sure they won't follow through with MMR and i'm a 1 trillion % confident they won't follow throught with making the game Balanced if they set MMR in stone. They'd rather have the game be casual and have no talks of Balance than actually have to fix the game. We're 5 years into DbD and the game has never been optimized or Balanced. There's bugs in every department, visual glitches and bugs, sound glitches and bugs, there's unbalance in the core of the game.
3 -
Wrong
First of all, ranks will be removed. So there is no point in deranking for easier matched.
The mmr will match players with an equal skill level. So no noob stomping for players that try to derank on purpose.
10 -
I'd like to address a couple of things here. I'll number my responses to match your points, or what I believe are your points.
- Challenging games are not mutually exclusive from fun games. In fact, the nature of a game is to challenge you. If you can't have fun playing a challenging game, then you are in the wrong place. You should be having fun whether you win, lose, or draw. This is a PvP game which means by its nature there will be winners and losers. It isn't the outcome that matters, but the contest itself. If you can't handle that there is always World or Warcraft and countless other games like it that will NEVER stress you.
- A lack of variety of Killers at a certain level of play doesn't indicate a problem with the MMR, i.e. skill based matchmaking. It is indicative that certain Killers probably need toning down while others need a tune up. That is always an ongoing process. However, you are correct that in the meantime you will see certain Killers more often. However, to say you will ONLY run into that tiny minority of Killers is just wrong. I don't play any of them. Chances are you will run into me (or people like me) too. More to the point, that is how things are now with the current matchmaking system too, so you can't blame that on MMR.
- This point is pretty much the same as the second one, but targeted at Builds rather than Killers. My answer is the same, you will run into a lot more variety than you think you will. And if certain Perks are over the top while others are underwhelming, that too is an ongoing process where things change and adapt. This is really no different from how things are NOW, so linking this to MMR is kind of silly.
So to sum up, your points are irrelevant. And for the record, there already is an additional mode for Players to use. It is called Custom Game, but it could easily have been called Casual Game because you and those who play with you set the rules. Everything is unlocked for you, so you don't need a grind. You can play this mode 24/7 so have at it. However, you don't get to earn BP or XP when you aren't out there taking the same risks and putting in the same work as everyone else.
8 -
Just 30 minute queue times instead once people realize they aren't having fun any more when 99.9% of the matches are sweaty and super stressful while real life is stressful enough already before playing killer in dbd a couple months into sweaty mmr after it's settled down into the deadzone. If I haven't figured out how to game the system by then and still see apotato once in a while, and if survivor queue times are unbearable again, I'll never touch the game again since the Evil Dead game AND Back 4 Blood will both be out long before then giving me what I need or crave at any given moment between the two. DBD will become Dead by Lobby if killer bots aren't out byt hen or hell even survivor bots to replace the DC increases I expect by then too from a lot of solo survivors LUL.
1 -
Just 30 minute queue lengths if not longer once people realize the game isn't game isn't fun any longer. Once the matches become sweaty 99.9% of the time (outside of others attempting to throw and figure out how to game the system themselves providing some moment of relief here and there from the solos if lucky enough as killers to not see too many 3 and 4 man lobbies all super sweaty for your ELO level) they are going to need bots to replace killers and also the solos survivors that are gonna be rage quitting at levels unprecedented if they haven't figured out how to effectively and within reasonable lengths of time game the mmr system by then to make the game a little fun again for themselves.
Within two to three months for most regular players they will begin hitting their ELO Deadzones which will showcase just how broken the game is in all of it's miserable glory with the promise of no hope from ever having any relief from it even briefly without paying for the game all over again on new accounts and starting the grind all over again hoping to play more horribly the next time around deliberately. The true skill in Dead by Lobby will become deliberately playing badly in precisely the right ways in order to keep the game from becoming a permanent sweat factory once an account has been ruined by moving too high in ELO. True ELOHELL.
Oh... the symphony of their agony. And the amount of posters that are gonna be banned off the steam discussions is gonna be so entertaining, as well as watching the concurrent player numbers drop over the months once the Evil Dead game and Back 4 Blood are out LUL. I feel like the one guy peeking out of the car in Superman 2 car who said, "Man, this is gonna be good!" just before all hell broke loose in Metropolis. This is gonna be good.
0 -
I really understand why someone doesnt want to play sweaty games. But its your own fault. If you would never play sweaty the game would give you a lower mmr and you dont need to play sweaty. Your problem is that you dont want to play sweaty but still win.
2 -
ELO isnt a one way street. Once people start to perform bad, they will get matched with more appropiate ranks.
5 -
I think it'll just drive more killers to either play the more boring, stronger killers or just stop playing entirely. There's already a drought of killer during peak times.
Honestly, I haven't seen anyone with more than a few thousand hours say they think this is a good idea. Most seem to think it'll kill the game and I'm inclined to agree.
Don't get me wrong I really prefer a fun, balanced match over too hard/easy ones. But a fair game is still one where the killer will most likely have to tryhard at whatever their skill level to come close to a win.
And facing most likely comms teams every game is going to get old very quickly for any decent killer.
0 -
Hhhmmm only considering your own enjoyment, the fact that those green ranks get stomped by better players game after game after game is naturally none of your concern.
Hhhhmmm variety, why do you not see those killers at higher ranks? You state to look at the root cause for deranking, yet instead of addressing the reason why those killers are not chosen at higher level, you want to stomp those people that use them.
If you want more variety, make those that are least represented more balanced and viable.
If you don't want to sweat, then don't, you will lose some matches and drop in bracket naturally till you settle somewhere you belong.
4 -
Good counter to my arguments, but check it out from the casual player side. There are so many toxic on both sides at the red ranks. As a casual non tryhard player during this test, I see a killer slugging every 5/6 matches the whole team. It completely spoils my gaming immersion. I didn't do derank to use it again every match with Second Chance Perks, because I like to change my build every match. Right now I have to use Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, Iron Will because there is no other way to play if what I see is Spirit or slugging Nurse. Therefore, it would be a good idea to add a ranking mode, maybe like CS GO with some prizes. If they put it in the test state, it's probably time to get back to playing SWF. I can already see how there will be a flood of posts again that everyone is playing SWF and they need to be nerfed from killers. And people who played solo will stop playing the game...
As for the Custom Games mode, to play it like you think it takes 5 players that you have on your friends list. Otherwise, you won't play this mode. Unless they add a server list like in BF/CoD, where anyone can join the session. Then this mode will be right to exist apart from testing new changes.
1 -
I don't take issue with the notion about Comms, but that isn't indicative that having a proper skill-based matchmaking is a problem, so much as SWF w/Comms is near impossible to account for in the current setup. I think that is mixing apples and oranges. Comms will have to be addressed separately because it is a separate problem. My view is the Killer should get a 5th Perk slot unlocked when facing a SWF of 3+ to help roughly balance the advantage of SWF's 5th Perk (Comms). In this way, the Killer doesn't get a boost when fighting Solos, but does when fighting SWF. If the boost turns out to be equitable with testing, it will work fine with any skill-based matchmaking.
0 -
Agreed, but personally I'd just like solos to always be able to be see who's being chased like with the obsession logo. I also think DBD is just too rng heavy to have an accurate ranking system at all.
This game is incredibly perk heavy at mid to high levels of play. 2 teams could get the same map, but one could get few pallets and massive dead zones whilst the other will get a god bus and a long wall jungle gym leading to shack window or a god window in a main building like Chapel.
I just don't see how it can work. And how will it work for killers. Will Clown be judged on the same level as a Nurse?
0 -
"I just want to play for fun." aka "I want to win without having to try".
1 -
I agree with you; that is not an unreasonable suggestion. It is a good one, actually. There are lots of ways to increase the information and communication abilities of Solo Players. More animation gestures with clear, KNOW meanings are also a good idea. But let's tell the truth and shame the devil; no matter how much information we give them, it will NEVER match what Comms provides. That is just fact. So while I endorse giving Solo more information and ability to communicate ideas. I still think the Killer needs that 5th Perk slot unlocked when facing a 3+ SWF.
Not all SWF are equally good, but all SWF have a competitive edge and the POTENTIAL to dominate. Not all Killers with a 5th Perk Slot would be good, or any better than they are now, but they would have greater POTENTIAL to dominate. That is the best balancing agent I think is possible in a chaos engine. That is what DbD is in fact. It is chaos engine driven by thousands upon thousands of AI (the Players) all at once.
0 -
True. You could never have the second to second info that comms provides. But I'm one of those people thats on the side of buffing solo to near SWF levels then buffing all killers/mechanics to an approppriate level.
It's all about giving solos the ability to optimise time like a comms team can.
I was playing Home Sweet Home whilst I was taking a break from DBD and honestly, the pinging system made it hard to actually come back to DBD. It's so useful. That game has a whole host of other problems but the pinging system along with the ability to post "stickers" by your portrati i.e "I'm being chased" or "I found a key item" made the game so much more enjoyable.
Nowadays I don't even want to play solo at all in DBD.
0 -
would you really wanna play a game where the 'meta game' is deliberately half assing and maybe ins ome cases still being able to benefit from at least partly afking it in ordert o get down to where you could have alittle fun again? I imagine that is too tedious to be worth doing it over just playing a different game myself, if as I assume I would have to do it for at least one if not two matches for every decent match I had to attempt to offset it. If you've ever thought you'd seen a fair amount of afk killers toward the end of the ranking periods or rifts before you haven't seen anything yet compared to what this busted mmr system is gonna bring if they haven't made the game more killer friendly or come up with a final solution for swf voip advantages by then.
solo survivors are gonna be doing the same thing too making it a nightmare being outside of a full 4 man swf, which doing so itself only exacerbates the problems that will drive more killers off of the game or into spending more time botting it or afking or half assing it (changing channels or screens and just blindly moving the killer around taking potshot swings once a minute or two not even looking at the game lol). This is gonna be more entertaining than the shitstorm that surrounded cyberpunk the only catch is I will need to wait about 3 or 4 months after perma mmr for it to catch up to itself. It'll be well worth the wait though. It will not disappoint me in the threads which will become infinitely more fun than the game lmao.
0 -
If you play casually and for fun, and run meme builds then why are you expecting to be matched with only meta nurses and spirits?
2 -
Before the test, I used different perks. Mostly windows of opportunity and Any Means Necessary. I had to change the build because my games look like this:
Soo much fun :) Idk why I'm matched like that... But if they introduce SMMR, it's time to consider whether to keep playing
0 -
That's unfortunate. I mostly had very good survivor games in terms of the killer and teammates, with a few wildcards here and there.
Killer games were pretty well matched too, like I could actually practice nurse. In this example I think the two escapees were together (not certain though) and they were equally good although one is rank 1 and the other rank 17. So the usual system would probably just launch them at some green rank killer
0 -
I don´t know what you are talking about. What you describe is exactly what is happening without the new mmr.
People afking, suiciding, or playing bad on purpose to depip and stomp new players. This won´t happen with mmr, because we don´t know how the mmr evaluates everyones gameplay.
2 -
I'm beginning to wonder, why almost every DBD player thinks they are part of the top1% and will only play against the sweatiest opponents available...
3 -
For me it’s not about winning it’s about using different perks outside the meta consistently. During this test when playing survivor I ended up having to go for the meta perks over silly builds which is where I have fun on survivor.
1 -
Why did you have to go for meta perks, though? What was the inciting event that "made" you do that?
1 -
So what I enjoy as a survivor is to have fun like you example. I play solo, at current red ranks, don't really bring meta perks, and just look to have a good game. With the skill based MMR, I got exactly that. The games I played were all surprisingly really good. I wasn't matched with sweaty players, most of the killers and survivors were all pretty chill. My survive/death ratio was probably 50%, but all the games were fun and I pipped every match that I remember.
On killer, with the characters I normally use, I wasn't dominating or getting completely stomped by SWFs, once again, fun games.
My point is, for a casual player who wants to have fun, the MMR system seemed well implemented.
3 -
I'm saying that, while it will take some getting there, initially it will appear to ease up as players begin having funner matches. but in the end it will begin picking up and become more common than it is now once everybody hits their elo ceiling and becomes either bored or constantly frustrated with their matches, knowing that because of the invisible mmr ranking they may as well assume that it'll be stuck that way forever unless they plan to start over and pay for the game again and play on a new account (behavior would love that of course especially with all the dlc they would have to buy all over again too). or they could just play another game. A couple of which will have been out by then, evil dead and back 4 blood.
I'll tell you what man, I'm considering playing killer and streaming it for months just to get to the prove myself right when every match becomes a miserable experience after a few months. And then stream the process of attempting to work my way out of that (since at that point I couldn't care less if it got me banned of course since the game would be no fun anyways any longer) doing things like slugging sometimes and letting them all bleed out to blow off steam if they could be caught easily, dcing as survivor or afking after the annoying new struggle suicide is thwarted, running around aimlessly on killer not even looking at the game etc.
If after weeks of doing that the matches still would be whatever level of swf it would be constantly pairing me up against or with, it would be safe to assume you would be stuck in elohell (and it would turn out to actually exist, at least in this game) and deliberately prevented from tanking the mmr by these devs that must be trying to kill dbd so they can release dbd2 or something. solos will be forced to choose between quitting and playing a different game, pairing up as yet even moar swf, or for some reason torturing themselves remaining solo being the other entertainment besides the killer for any duos and 3 man swf they get chucked into a lobby with as the number of swf naturally increases. It sets off a cascade of reactions to reactions and it ultimately will turn out to be a game full of premades of varying degrees, the ones killers are up against always feeling sweaty from their point of view, and the game just becoming absolutely tedious with no room for experimentation or mistakes.
It's going to suck and that's why I can't wait for it. Because I want to check in after a few months and then do it regularly from there so that I won't miss the point where the threads about queue times start coming back and ones about all the banhammers and deliberate bming or afking start becoming increasingly common. I find all of that delightfully entertaining. It is gonna real fun reading about this game as it goes downhill eventually. That's why I can't wait for this mmr to become permanent. It'll make the game itself either boring or miserable, but reading About the game more entertaining than it's ever been before and they probably will shoot themselves in the foot with autobans to boot eventually rofllmfao. It's gonna be like looking up at a roller coaster at just the right moment to see it suddenly fly off of the tracks with everybody screaming on it as it takes them all screaching to their doom when they thought it was gonna give them the time of their lives. Man it is gonna be awesome. This game will be so dead next year and never be able to recover lol.
1 -
BT for teammates so they don’t get slugged immediately off hook. Happened every game. DS for this exact scenario. Iron Will for strider spirits, I went against a crap ton of them. Dead hard for the nurses I kept going against. Add to that constantly staying on gens, even when someone is hooked, only going for the unhook just right before the next stage.
idk that play style is boring ass hell for me even if I know it’s effective. Granted it’s why I usually only play survivor for pebble plays, deception, MoM, breakout ... etc stuff you don’t see commonly. I rarely even use exhaustion perks on normal play these days. I don’t “win” half the time but I have fun and I play for my team to win.
this SBMM, I felt restricted in order to be a good teammate.
1 -
Your first sentence starts with "For me it's not about winning". Okay fair enough. If it isn't about winning, then why do you have to go for meta perks? If it isn't about winning, then nothing is stopping you from using any perks you like. Unless you want to win without meta perks? In which case, so you want to win without trying?
1 -
Read above you
0 -
Although it can suck at first, if you'd kept using the perks you find fun, you'd eventually reach a "stable" MMR, where you'd be matched up against people who also play casually (or at least people whose best effort matches your casual effort).
I will note, however, that if you changed your loadout, it's because you valued something else more than the loadout. Apparently, it's playing efficiently. Personally, I keep my weird-ass perks (at the moment: Dark Sense, Diversion, Red Herring, Inner Strength) no matter what because I value using a "weird" build over playing efficiently. Win or lose (usually win), I keep my loadout.
0 -
You’re prolly right about the adjustment eventually. I just prefer being a decent team player if I know queues aren’t great.
0 -
That's my point: you prefer being efficient over using unusual builds, so that's what you chose to do. MMR isn't to blame for that, it's just that you expect to be able to win even without using meta builds.
1 -
In what world is you deranking to green ranks for easy games fun for your opposition?
The world doesn't revolve around you.
3 -
I agree!!! but when the survivors are unknown, then there must be 3 perk slots!
0 -
good to see another red herring enthusiast
0 -
then let's become friends !!! also oer me the beauty of this game is collaboration! 1) if my partner is on the hook, the priority is to save him! 2) if the killer uses NOED, I don't escape the test! I'm going to find him to save the team! 3) I hate the gen rush! irritates the killer who, in my opinion, is entitled to camping and tunneling! 4) my build can never miss BT! if my teammates die, I don't win either! 5) the dark trap door is the last resort! it's a fact of luck! who uses it as a strategy is noob! 6) IMPORTANT: if you have never been hooked, while your partner is on the second hook, sacrifice yourself! ######### !!! this is a collaborative game!
0 -
What don't y'all understand about smurfing? Players will be able to de-rank no matter what system we put in place, so don't act like it's exclusively MMR that allows that to happen.
1 -
In that they get a killer at peak hours instead of playing lobby simulator (unless you play killer exclusively during those times and if so I retract my statement)
0 -
If somebody wants to smurf given this game's grind... good luck to them.
1 -
Playing multiplayer games pretty much my whole life ive come to the conclusion that its actually better to go against people of a higher skill level, you learn faster. Taking baby steps and "rank 20s" only going against "rank 20s" is a recipe for a brutal failure in the future. If you cant handle being stomped for awhile then dont play online games, its not how they are built. Its like being thrown into a new job, you better learn quick or you will get let go or be severely frustrated. Look at Apex legends, it rarely puts you in your skill level. You play a few good games and all of a sudden you have 3 squads of Predator level players. They just randomly throw 60 people in a non ranked game and say have at it. DBD doesnt need skill based matchmaking, it just needs to find 4 suvivors and 1 killer and let people learn either the hard way or easy way depending how you tackle it. Stop whining when youre a rank 14 killer going against a 4 man red rank swf....learn their patterns, practice your power, learn how good players loop and bring that with you into the next match
0 -
People of a somewhat higher skill level maybe. People with thousands of hours vs someone brand new, no. The only thing the new player will learn from that is that they should play something else.
0 -
And that is the reason why competitive fighting games have like 200 active players each.
0
