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@Devs, How is a killer to counter Hold w and immediately drop pallets?
Comments
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Sorry, im still waiting for you to give me a game like DBD.🙊
You cant be out here trying to compare DBD to Valorant. Thats just not how it works 🤪
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No, i want the game to be about the chase.
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What makes this game so special that it is entirely unique from every single game ever made before it that makes it so you can't balance around high level play?
There's another person saying that "hold w and drop pallets" only works in SWF. Ok so, let's nerf it then? If it doesn't work in low level play, then low level players aren't exploiting it to win. So if you nerf it, it won't hurt low level players.
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Let's remove generators and gates ?
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Explain to me how you're going to compare DBD to fortnite. Just to push an agenda for high level skill balancing. We dont even have proper match making.
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Honestly dont even bother, you've been grasping at straws for awhile now and just disagreed with everyone. I'll save you the trouble 😴
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play minecraft if you only want to press M1
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And yet the devs are pushing MMR. Which will make high level games become miserable.
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Let me put it this way. Explain to me you reasons why you can't balance this game around high level players?
Think about this. There are some pretty ridiculous RNG setups that can spawn in this game for survivors. Really good survivors can exploit this to loop a killer for minutes before landing a single hit. Bad survivors go down in 20 seconds. Now, let's imagine that the devs nerf these types of setups, or prevent them from existing such that really good survivors now can only delay a hit for 40 seconds. (Ignore the "how" for a moment and pretend its a switch they can flip to make the survivor last some exact number of seconds) What happens to the low skill survivors who go down in 20 seconds? They still go down in 20 seconds. You didn't make anything worse for them, because they weren't exploiting that setup to begin with.
Meanwhile, on the flipside, why is low level survivor play so miserable? Things like HEX Totem spawns, that make it harder for those survivors, or killers who camp/tunnel. So what if you make it so killers can't hard camp/tunnel anymore. It doesn't really affect that high level play, because high level killers aren't doing those things to begin with, because tunneling gets you DSed, and camping loses you the game. (Unless you got the survivors in some terrible state like, a hook by a 3 gen and all of them injured or something) Not being able to communicate with your team in solo queue is also part of this problem. So fix that, SWF top tier players are using discord anyway, so who cares if solo survivors get a ping system? Top tier killers are already used to SWF in discord, so it won't affect them.
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I would stop entertaining this individual. Because this has to be 🔗 🐡 at this point. Who gripes about running 🤣? And the reason competitive is non existent for this game is because the majority is casual. Most people who play those games tend to be invested into it.
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The maps need to be made in a way that you can cut them off. Large round maps like mothers dwelling or ormond are just giant W maps. Long rectangular maps are also a problem.
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Name a casual game that lasts more than 5 years. The second DBD gets a competitor, it's over. Fall guys and among us didn't even last 1 year.
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Never chase to down unless its quick. Every time you enter into a chase aim to get a hit or a pellet in 15 seconds, if not break back off and harrass gens. 3-gen excessively.
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Then they immediately get on a generator.
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Let me ask you a question.
Do you think nurse and spirit should be nerfed?
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No I don't think any killer should be nerfed. If anything I think trickster, and trapper need a buff. Especially trapper he is massively overdue for a buff. No more questions on this post 👋
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So we should balance around casual/average level players?
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LOL - People keep saying - survivors run when they hear their terror radius or at 30 meters. Give me a break. If that were the case - matches would take 30 minutes because survivors would be running all willy nilly and not doing gens.
I play Doctor 80% of my killer matches and have played killer around 1800 hours - you may be able to fool some survivor mains with this type of BS but I am calling it exactly what it is.. BS. At red ranks especially... survivors stay on gens to the last possible second and MAYBE .. MAYBE leave when the killer is 16-18 meters away - so let's get that clear from the start. I see the number "30 meters" thrown around a lot in this inane "discussion" and it's absolutely inflated to make the math look more appealing for the argument and is absolute fiction.
Let's also discuss modifiers to a chase:
Advanced mobility: Wraith, Hag, Nurse, Blight, Hillbilly, Freddy, Spirit, Oni, Legion
Ranged attacks: Huntress, Deathslinger, Executioner, Trickster, Demogorgon, Nemesis, Plague
Special Attacks: Clown, Doctor, Twins, Ghostface, Bubba, Pig
So that leaves us with the following killers who will have a harder time with this meme of Holding W: Trapper - who if he has good map awareness and good trap placement... can stop a chase almost instantly.
Quit trying to come up with "issues" that need addressed and instead focus on the strengths of each killer. Seriously... holding W? LOL!
This whole argument is even sillier than survivors complaining about NOED - you look silly as hell trying to convince others that "poor killers are being abused because survivors are running and throwing pallets." Absolute face palm. Of all the things to take issue with...you choose this? LOL! Please go back to complaining about gen rushing - at least there is SOME merit in that discussion.
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Hillbilly counters pre drop and holding W, Hag wants the pre drop and good placement counters holding W, Bubba counters pre drop, Demogorgon counters pre drop and Hold W with Zoning and shred, Slinger zoning and quick shots to counter Hold W, Nemesis counters pre drop.
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Matches wouldnt last 30 minutes. You forget this is a 1v4 not a 1v1. The other 3 survivors are slamming gens.
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A stamina bar would kill this game so fast.
Some of the other ideas are okay though.
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Sure, let's discuss these killers:
Nurse/Blight/Spirit - Read my OP, those are the ones that can compete against this.
Wraith - Tru3 vs oracle proved wraith can't hang.
Hag - She is still a 110 and requires setup, she can sometimes get a good 3 gen going but that's about it.
Hillbilly - He still has to m1 around loops. I'll give you that he does counter this strategy a little bit since he can break pallets fast, but he still is effectively m1 around loops, so he does require some slightly more amount of brain cells to play against.
Freddy - Is an m1 killer when you aren't asleep, and the counter to his power is, you guessed it, hold m1 and immediately drop pallets. It's difficult to win chases against him due to snares and he probably needs a redesign to fix this problem.
Oni - Is literally an m1 killer, his counter is to play exactly like this, if you play like this and never get hit, he never gets his power.
Legion - Legion's "mobility" is so good, that if you hold w when you hear the terror radius, they still can't catch up to you even with their power. Legion ms in frenzy is 5.0 m/s and lasts 10 seconds. If a survivor starts running at 25 meters into the terror radius, legion gets to get 10 meters on them (survivors move at 4 m/s) which means he is still 15 meters away, oh wait now he gets a cooldown period of 5 seconds, so they just gained back 8 or so meters.
Huntress - You would be correct if every map was just a flat plane with nothing in them, which is not the case, being a 110% killer means holding w is even stronger against her. And you don't want to loop her, it's risky, she might hit you, so the best play is to immediately drop pallets, hold w and put stuff between you and her.
Deathslinger - Same as huntress but even worse because hes only got 1 shot.
Executioner - And has literally 0 map pressure. The whole point of his power is to bait you into vaulting or dropping the pallet and then when you do he m2s, if you don't, he keeps going. Best strategy is to not even try looping, just hold w, and immediately drop pallets.
Trickster - really? Hes just a worst version of deathslinger and huntress who has to land no less than 8 ranged attacks on you, all while moving slower than a survivor while throwing. Hold w is literally his counter.
Demogorgon - they already nerfed that addon, again, with shred, you don't want to risk looping him because he might bait it or cancel the power. Just throw down the pallet immediately and keep running.
Nemesis - Same as PH, but slightly worse because he has to hit you 3 times.
Plague - Which also requires that survivors cleanse in order to get her power. Outside of that she gets one 60 second use of it. So you just hide for 60 seconds, and now she is an m1 killer for the rest of the game, no power, and you can immediately drop every pallet and hold w. Additionally, her purge doesn't have as much range as you think it does.
Clown - Same as freddy, his power is literally just a slightly better (but no teleports) version of freddys power. You don't loop clowns, you hold w and drop pallets.
Doctor - Again, his power is at the "LOOP" why risk looping, just drop the pallet immediately and hold w and now he can't do anything.
Twins - The amount of shadow nerfs and strange things about this killer make it extremely difficult. But i'll contend that you can't hold w against victor, you can against charlotte though.
Ghostface - He is an m1 killer with no terror radius, the definition of hold w drop pallets.
Bubba - Same deal, just drop pallets and hold w, he has no map pressure and can't move around like billy can. I will add that additionally there is a bit of skill involved in potentially trying to stun him with the pallet, although this is risky. Instead of the usual 1 pallet, he gets to eat through 2-3 before he loses 3 gens. Better, but given that most maps have 12+ pallets, not gonna change much.
Pig - Her traps aren't really part of this, and her dash requires her to charge it and be at a loop. Again, the definition of hold w and drop pallet immediately. Her power is anti-loop and slowdown when you get traps on their head, but she still requires you to land that first down.
You are underestimating the power of hold w. If a survivor hold w, doesn't drop pallets, doesn't vault windows, doesn't do anything but run in a straight line, it takes the killer 48 seconds to down them. factor in picking them up, finding a hook, and hooking them, and you probably just spend 60-70 seconds doing this. You just lost 3 gens from the other 3 survivors on the gens.
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The totem ones treat the symptom (gens go too fast) while the stamina one treats the root cause and only affects that exact playstyle. Not sure how it would kill the game.
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Well there's your problem. You play a broken killer and are comparing every other killer to Nurse.
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Because playing survivor would be like when legion could put you in deep wounds and just stay far back enough from Chase where you can't mend because he's trailing you and you can't continue to keep running because the bar would go to zero again.
It basically is whet got legion reworked in the first place.
Now if it's just a stamina bar, I don't even have to trail you just out side of the terror radius. I can just chase you and you'll slow down enough to get a free hit. That's ridiculous.
I'll go back to playing Friday if that's the case. At least in that game you could loop and recharge your stamina because there were cabins and buildings to go to.
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And you are over-estimating the power of “hold W”
Please upload a video where you are able to just “hold W” and take the killer on a wild goose chase for 48s without vaulting or using pallets. That is honestly a load of rubbish.
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Oh no - according to the most vocal people in these inane threads - when you get within 30 meters of them survivors sun - the maps are only so big... so that's a lot of survivors running scared all the time. Seriously - I have played way more killer than a lot of people in these convos.. not buying the BS excuse/meme of "Holding W."
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Well I hate to say it - but learn to play the killer - get better map awareness - learn predictive behavior - because that's why you are losing. If you don't like being challenged and want an easy win and bloodpoints - play survivor if it is so easy. This "issue" is not an issue and has not been an issue until recently when one moron coined the "Holding W" phrase.
I refuse to play Wraith any more and he was my 2nd main because... he is stupidly easy even against a 4 man SWF.
I play Doctor, Huntress, and Pig and have NO issues getting 2-4ks. The only time I am not red rank is on the 13th of each month.
Funny how all these red rank killers make it sound like they are getting 0ks due to survivors holding W - yet maintain their red rank - something don't seem right. You will not convince me that this is a problem to any degree - aside from maybe on Trapper who in my opinion needs a major rework/buff.
And no I am not a survivor sided person - I am a factual person. Survivor mains just like killer mains on these forums love to exaggerate things to the nth degree to try and gain favor for their hyperbolic opinions. As far as this stupid meme/complaint goes - that's all it is - exaggeration and anecdotal "evidence."
I'm not going to "argue" this - especially on these forums - because there is no factual basis for this aside from a few selective matches that a few "popular" streamers have provided as "evidence." Meanwhile you have other streamers who have 50+ win streaks on almost every killer - who face the exact same survivors as everyone else - I guess their survivors don't have W keys.
Have fun arguing a meme - I am out :)
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It's simple math. Lets look at a basic killer. All of these stats come from the following sources:
- https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Movement_Speeds#Survivors
- https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Basic_Attacks
- https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
32 meter directional terror radius
4.6 m/s movement speed.
3 second attack cooldown
Lunging makes you move at 6.9 m/s for 0.3 seconds. Factoring in the hitbox, this makes the range of a lunge to hit, 6 meters.
Survivors move at 4.0 m/s.
When hit, survivors move at 6.0 m/s for 2 seconds.
Average human response time is 273 milliseconds
When the killer's terror radius enters a survivors area, the average response time is 273 milliseconds. The terror radius is directional. Now, i know what you might say, i'm not assuming survivors immediately respond that quickly. Let's say it takes a survivor 1 second to realize they are in the terror radius, it'll take them 2 seconds to figure out where the killer is coming from and which direction to run to. Once this happens, the survivor starts running in the opposite direction.
During this time, the killer has gained 4.6 * 3 = 13.8 meters. This means they are 32 - 13.8 meters away from the survivor at 18.2 meters.
The lunge range for the killer is 6 meters. Factoring in human reaction times and human element and for ease of math, let's call this, 5 meters. This means they need to close a gap of 18.2 - 5 = 13.2 meters. Killers move .6 m/s faster than the survivor, this means it takes 22 seconds to reach lunge range.
Now, the killer has spent 22 seconds, and just landed a hit. Survivors get a burst of speed at 6.0 m/s for 2 seconds, the killer is effectively frozen for 3 seconds
During this time the survivor has gained (6.0 * 2) + 4.0 = 18 meters.
Lunge range makes it so the killer needs to make up 18 - 5 = 13 meters of distance. This means at .6 more movement speed than the survivor, it will take just under 22 seconds to land that second hit.
So, both hits took 22 seconds, that is 44 seconds. Now you sit in an attack animation for 3 seconds, and the survivor has crawled a little bit, meaning you need to walk forward a bit, making you take....... 22 + 22 + 3 + 0.5 = 47.5 seconds (on no i was off by .5 seconds!).
Now, how long does it take a killer to pick up a survivor? That takes 2.5 seconds i believe. Hook time is 1.5 seconds, and the time to walk to a hook varies, but i'd say it usually takes around 5 "grunts" which is about 8 seconds.
22 + 22 + 3 + 0.5 + 2.5 + 1.5 + 8 = 59.5 seconds.
60 seconds. That doesn't even factor in the time it took to walk to the opposite end of the map to find that first survivor. You just lost 3 gens.
If you want a video, i'll try to dig up an old otz video where he tested clown back when he was slowed when throwing bottles. I think he figured out if you just held w it saved the clown like 4 seconds total or something. It was more of a take on clown rather than killers, but it still showed holding w.
Post edited by Reinami on0 -
I too can probably get 50 wins in a row, hell probably with no perks on just about any killer. But when survivors play this way, things change. They don't as often as they do, but since the tru3 vs oracle match, more and more survivors are playing like this.
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I've seen this 'hold W' comment being thrown around a lot. I'm genuinely asking, is this the new bait thread/Killer meme?
Statistically speaking red rank Survivors still escape less than half of all games. Killers win the vast majority of games, I think the last I saw it was in the high 60 or low 70 percentile of all games.
Toolboxes are nerfed. Perks are nerfed. Gens take longer. Palettes give Killer preferential. Now running is a problem? Every Killer, even the slowest Killer, is faster than a Survivor. Knowing when to leave a chase is part of being a Killer as several others have said.
When I play Killer (which is rare and I'm VERY bad at) I use my level 1 single or no perk no add-on Killers to farm bloodpoints for my Survivors and I still win almost every single round. The running speed of a Survivor is not a problem.
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watch how every single survivor team plays in a tournament lol, they almost never lose with these strategies
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It's called getting good, don't like it then don't play.
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Tournament play ≠ Regular play
Never been an issue with me as a killer. Tournament survivors are also way more skilled than non-tourney survivors.
People will grasp at anything to try to solidify this meme. My favorite is killers who claim "survivors run as soon as they hear my 28/32 meter TR" - if that were case they would never be doing gens LOL! Then they do the math to show you just how powerful it is when survivors run when you are 32 meters away LOL! Like seriously GTFO - what rank are you playing 21?
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The real question to devs should be how many % of the matches the killers don't get any kills, and how many % of matches they get 4k.
I am very surprised just holding w can help. Green rank here. Somehow I always get downed in what seems to be 15 seconds. Maybe bacause I am trying to learn to loop? Some of teammates at that time were spooked off a gen, some were waiting nearby to try a flashlight save (that almost never works) or just were on one gen with me and are hiding from the killer, some are already in the locker because BBQ (damn it), and maybe one is on a gen. Then they will try to save, then run somewhere because the killer will return to search for the saved and the saviour, then heal, and only then try to find a gen. By that time someone else will be already carried to the hook and it all repeats. Almost no one does gens in solo queue. Those who do get fast tracked by bbq. If you watch popular survivour main streamers you will see it. I can have multiple games in a row with killers getting 4 kills easy. And at times like this I want to quit. If the game was balanced around strongest players, I would quit long ago.
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Correct, but if the strategy is played and amounts to winning 80+% of the time shouldn't it be fixed? We should balance around the highest level players.
So top tier killer players can counter holding w, but top tier survivor players can't react to a directional terror radius within 3 seconds?
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Read my post here, it's simple math.
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Yeah because every survivor starts running the second they hear a terror radius 32 meters away. I cannot roll my eyes enough at this math - because the premise it is based on is beyond flawed. If survivors ran when they heard a 32 meter terror radius they would never accomplish anything - especially on maps like Glenvale or the Game. I guess people will resort to anything to keep this meme alive. Anyways - I am off to have some fun for the weekend. I'm sure there will be more posts/threads about this horrible debilitating and overpowered tactic that forum killer mains and tournament killers face when I come back in a few days LOL.
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Right so, you didn't read my post then. Human reaction time is 270 ms. I'm quadrupling that, and assuming it takes you 1 full second to realize you are in the terror radius. Then another 2 full seconds to figure out where the killer is, remember the terror radius is directional. This is pretty damn lenient. This is 12 times the average human reaction time.
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leave it alone... survivors won't really get it because they do not play killer so time-management is absence concept to them.
killers won't get it because matchmaking/ranking(emblem) system has trouble deducing wins from loss and you mixed skill caliber. also a lot of players probably play at low-rank/casual killer so that does not help.
you are correct. very few killers counter hold-W, its one of strongest strategies for survivor. typically your not really suppose hold-W only. you need combine holding-w with pallet looping and window looping.
The theory behind survivor is that your suppose to attempt to loop a window as much as possible to push the killer to get bloodlust 1-2 than use safe pallet in which survivor can loop infinitive because bloodlust does not help vs said pallet. This forces the killer to break the pallet. since breaking pallet is very slow animation, it gives survivors distance to make it to the next pallet, this distance is between loops is the "hold-W" part of the chase.
Looping is not just about using tilesets correctly, its also about managing your pallet resources efficiently.
Apart from Nurse, Spirit and Blight, I'd say that Hillibilly, Oni, Twins(Victor) and Clown can impact hold-W strategies... the problem is that all these killers are constantly getting bitched about and weakened on purpose so their variables are not able to impact the game outcome.
Hillbilly minimizes the waste time of holding W between tilesets, but he has poor tileset play because his chainsaw is too slow to curve tight efficient looping. survivors need to animation lock themselves into a window or be severely out in the open for him to hit players due to his add-on nerfs.
Clown purple gas does minimize effects of hold W, but its not big enough of debuff to hit people between loops. he has yellow bottle in which he should able to combine it with his purple gas to get huge speed-boost but Almo decided to give 2.5 second activation time such that timing speed boosts with purple bottles pretty much impossible if the survivor has good routing.
Oni suffered many negative changes before he went to live servers. mainly that they weakened his pallet break in his power and lower duration of his demon form from 60->45 but they also punish him whenever he downs a survivor(-7 seconds) making his power very expensive to upkeep. so a lot of your games as Oni are that you spend 1 chase as M1 killer and one chase as demon form. if he wasn't punished so much for downing survivors and he would more easily upkeep his power, he might have chances to compete against better teams. its too easy to exploit his M1 killer play every second chase against him.
Twins, as you can see lots of negative changes and many more coming in hot. Twins suffers from the fact that survivor can kidnap victor thus making her powerless for 30 seconds and the fact that victor downs people far away forcing Charlotte spend walking time to pick up survivors and hook them(or slug). Other than that, Victor is exactly what killers need to be successful at loops and hold-w waste time strategy between loops. Its sad that 150% m/s demogorgon named Victor his own pitfalls.
survivors just detest strong killers that can do something to oppose their strategies both at tileset loops and between loops so killers can not really do much vs overly good teams.
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Like lambs to a slaughter
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Did you know.. that if a killer walks up to a pallet, there a button that allows them to break it? Shocking, I know.
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I don't need you math, I have game experience and most survivors go down in 10-15 seconds. You describe an ideal situation when a survivor can run in opposite direction from the killer in a straight line for 44 seconds, that doesn't happen in game. We most often are on a gen in the corner or in the middle of one side of the map. It means we have to turn. And the killer will see the turn and cut the angle. Killers always catch up with me and my friend real fast. Especially if the killer has ranged attack and I have to zigzag to dodge. Besides, it's not that easy to understand where terrror radius originates. It seems easy in theory, but for casual gamers it's not. They just panic and run whichever way comes to mind. Often they run towards the killer. Even premonition doesn't help 100% because it's a cone and sometimes you are in a corner, the killer just crosses the cone from right to left, you think they are to the right of you, start running left and there they are meeting you with open arms.
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By those same standard we shouldn't compare Fortnite to LoL or CSGO to DOTA. Even the closest game I know of to DbD, Natural Selection 2, shouldn't be compared to DbD because it is 2 teams against each other instead of 1v4.
The fact is that each game has a few questions it HAS answer.
1, what is "fair"?
2, how does the game become "fair"?
3, how do player interactions effect the game being "fair"?
4, how does the game change to reflect player interactions effecting "fair"?
Ever, singe, game has to answer these questions and multiple times over their lifetime. If BHVR wants DbD to be "fair" then they need to answer them as well and make changes to the game to do so. They've done this several times already, but #3 is a constant thing any game dev has to deal with as the player base is constantly pushing the limits to any/every game. If the community is making the game not "fair" by growing their skills or using tactics the devs didn't intend or never thought about then the devs need to answer #4 once again. Maybe go back to #1 again and change what DbD's version of "fair" is.
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That is my entire point. Most survivors go down in 10-15 seconds.
So let's imagine this scenario. We have 2 sets of survivors.
- The ones who go down in 10-15 seconds
- The ones who can abuse Shift + w to waste a killers time such that they lose 3 gens for the down.
Let's say they nerf or otherwise fix "hold w, drop pallets" What happens?
The survivors who abuse this mechanic no longer are able to abuse it, or when they do they get punished for it. The survivors who go down in 10-15 seconds, what happens to them? They continue to go down in 10-15 seconds. They aren't abusing these types of things to begin with, so nerfing or changing them doesn't affect them.
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I get it that the chase is a big part of the game, so I understand some people's frustrations at such a simple tactic.
But I find that hyperfocusing on this and not seeing the ways killers make up time with their powers does nothing for the conversation.
For example - I as a Doc main don't mind longer chases so much because I literally spend zero time trying to find somebody. So little of my time is wasted finding people, I can afford to spend a little more time in a chase.
But I think the problem many killers are having is that they aren't willing to give up a chase when they really should. I mean, if I actually get stopped at a pallet and the guy holds W, I take out the pallet then move on then pressure somebody else off a gen. There's always a weaker link I can find and down.
Frankly, I see the hold W thing that's been around since day 1 to be a non-issue. The problem is certain influencers who overestimate how much the top-tier balance actually matters in the context of the entire game.
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The problem is time efficiency. If it takes me 30 seconds to land a hit, and survivors 16 seconds to heal that, it doesn't work when there are 4 of them.
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With Spirit. No, seriously.
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Stop just before you get to said pallet or act like you going to swing at them and hit the small "wall" that's near the pallet
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I said without nurse/spirit/blight.
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