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Tunneling Nerf
Without actually nerfing it.
Simply, considerably reduce the amount of points you get for hooking the same survivor multiple times in a row, to at least 50% of them, this applies for at least 1 min after said person got unhooked or someone else gets hooked, if the person gets tunneled a second time in a row, the hook will only give 25% of the BP.
This no longer applies if theres only 2 survivors in the match left (Since tunneling at that point is whatever)
Comments
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If the killer wants to win then they wouldnt care they got slightly less BP
32 -
This could be abused - and it's not fair if the survivor runs in front of the killer to take a hit for another player and the killer is denied of BP if it's the person that just got hooked for example (happens a lot with BT).
I don't think punishing a player for playing within the confines of the game is a good thing either - tunneling is not against the game rules don't forget. I'd rather encourage players to chase someone else, rather than punish those that do choose to tunnel.
65 -
if I want someone out of the game ASAP I never think about how I'll get less points because of it lol
I'll hard facecamp if I have to which is loss of points already
How about BP is doubled if they chase a new survivor instead of taking our BP away for no reason.
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Punishing players for playing within the confines of the game is never a good idea. Players should instead be incentivised to go after more lucrative prey by way of awarding extra BP for targeting a different survivor.
20 -
Yeah, you can't punish people for playing a game.
Entice them towards different tactics, maybe, but no punishment
8 -
That could work too.
1 -
I don't think this can work based on what others have said
The only meaningful way to stop tunneling is to slow the game down. I'm going to assume that most killers tunnel because of how fast gens seems to go by. The more gens are completed the more the killer is going to Tunnel in order to get an advantage. So if there is a way to slow down the game then killers would find tunneling as unessacary since they have the time to get 12 hooks. This is ignoring tunneling to be toxic though.
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Thats partially fault of the killers design, a lot of the newer ones are heavily centered around 1vs1 rather than 1vs4 (map pressure), which is bad design btw
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That is basically what happened, at least in my experience, with Old Undying.
Playing survivor was a good experience for me at the time, because with the secondary objective being almost mandatory, killers could easily afford to switch targets and tunneling was basically gone.
6 -
Instead of removing BP should give a BP bonus for going after different survivor or going after the unhooker instead of the recently unhooked.
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In return let us apply a similar penalty to survivors, so the speed of the game matches what you want to achieve.
If you stop working on a generator because it is finished or any other reason, a BP penalty is applied if you work or even tap on any generators for the next 60 seconds unless you have done any of the other objectives first, cleanse a totem, healed another survivor or safely unhooked them.
We need to stop the gen rush after all and punish anyone who dares to do their objective to quickly... lets be real, if you are being tunneled out of the game, maybe your teammates should step up and body block for you, wait for a safe unhook, allow you to hide away while they take agro and what not!
Instead of punishing the people for doing their objective... maybe work with the other 3 people to keep each other safe!
8 -
Not that simple on solo cue, people will likely dont know where you are, or that you need help due to a tunneler.
(Can we add an emote wheel already?)
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Someone has to get you off the hook do they not?
I play mainly solo as a survivor and understand that concept, I protect the one I unhook and even usually have BT in my builds. I have also been left alone, had the healthy person hide away, slam a pallet in my face and farmed straight under the killers nose enough... yet I don't blame the killer for slapping me down and putting me back on the hook (I don't really run DS).
In the vast majority of cases it isn't the killer that created the scenario for the tunnel it are the survivors! I play both sides and understand that it is in the killers best interest to punish survivors for mistakes they make. If the killer hasn't found a new survivor to chase once you unhook, expect them to come back... if you rescued someone, you tend to have an additional health state, maybe less hook states and maybe you should you know... take agro!
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Run DS, or stop crying. People will seriously never get this.
7 -
Still plenty of people who tunneled with old undying + ruin.
Killers hellbent on tunneling and face camping a survivor cannot be stopped. That's a problem with the player and no amount of anything can ever fix it. There's a lot of killers who get fun out of making other players miserable even if it's only 1 out of 4 survivors that's all they want is to ruin one persons fun.
So sick of it in red ranks lately like grow up. Idk why people have to be toxic at higher ranks but it really is just in every single rank and it's depressing.
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People using tactics that don't go against the rules of the game are being toxic.
You should check your entitlement.
10 -
They would still end up with more bp playing optimally, penalized or not, than running the risk of a game ending with only 3 or 4 hooks or barely 1 kill if they're lucky against a competent swf on comms. They will still tunnel at least one player at some point in the match, the same as sometimes camping one out may turn out to be the move they need to make in a specific situation. Which makes more hits, more hooks, and a longer game leading to more bp possible for them when it's the right call. Play killer down to green ranks and begin understanding why it is sometimes necessary, though more often necessary to tunnel, camping less often and typically by proxy (like hag traps, or hooking near a gen or two you are protecting for late game and patrolling in between checking the hook so that you can respond quickly when they're unhooked).
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Oh please. Camping, tunneling and slugging have their places but when a killer decides to tunnel and face camp the first person they down and be toxic/hit them on hook they're basically ruining one person's game.
Is that fun to you? I play both sides equally but by all means, attack me because I think making one players experience awful is unhealthy for the community and the game as a whole.
If you endorse toxic behavior then good for you. You're just perpetuating the cycle of people being mean to each other even with that comment.
7 -
Just because they're within the rules doesn't make it not toxic. It just means it isn't bannable.
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I play solo and you know what piss me off more, dude unhook me without BT and then just crouch in a corner while i can’t do that because im not running IW, learn to take the aggro and i see that all the time playing killer, I’m going back to the hook and the only scratch marks lead me back to the injured guy.
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lol #########. yeah they do this no one would play killer and as usual survivors abuse anything they can. so in a nutshell no. just no lol
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Once again we have a punitive suggestion.
This speaks volumes about people being unable to keep emotion out of the game. I get upset when 'X' happens I want those who do it punished.
Punishments are typically abusable by the opposing side and are rarely effective. If people want other players to play a particular way then they need to be rewarded for doing so.
9 -
I think everyone agrees that tunneling is the most effective way for the killer to quickly take a survivor out of the game, but at the same time it is the most frustrating situation for the survivor because he is simply down in one hit.
And we all know that neither BT nor DS can really stop the killer.
Just because something is within the rules doesn't mean it doesn't take the fun out of the game for the other side! Why doesn't DS activate twice, after all you can be tunneled twice or why isn't the stun for example 8 seconds, so that the survivor really has a chance to make distance or hide...? Or why does it deactivate when you get tunneled but manage to stall the killer longer???
It's really cheap to argue that changes to the tunnel theme (same goes for camping) are abused by the survivors, so the conclusion of the devs is "then let killers continue to use these game mechanics, even if partly the survivors are deprived of the fun of the game"....
in my opinion, it is the task of the devs (in the best case in exchange with the community) to look at these mechanisms, and to find a reasonable solution.
Or maybe you should be tunneled away five matches in a row in your game... and then tell us again: „hey, it’s the game rule“
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A hook is only 500 BP. 3 Hooks from a survivor will have 1500 BP, with 250 Caught on 1st hook, 250 Summon Entity on 2nd hook, 250 on Sacrifice on 3rd hook. Even if you completely remove hook point from the tunneled survivor, they merely lose 1000 BP.
Killer can still earning point from using power, hitting ect on other 3 Survivors to fill up all the categories.
Otherwise, Killer tunnel because they want 4k, not BP.
If anything, there should be something to add more BP for the tunneled Survivor so they dont get out of a match with 6000 Boldness.
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Or maybe you should be tunneled away five matches in a row in your game... and then tell us again: „hey, it’s the game rule“
I get tunnelled a lot, mori'd too. :)
And I never said that it might not be a problem, I think you'll find I said that this is within the game rules and I also don't believe that punishing a player for employing this tactic is the way to resolve what some perceive as an issue.
5 -
Better idea: make all the survivors share 12 hook states, so that the order of hooking does not matter: to kill all 12 survivors the killer has to hook any survivors 12 times in total. There will be no point in tunneling, and the game will still be fare for killers (for those who play to play, that is, not who play to be toxic and ruin the game for other players).
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Why should the devs change the game based on arbitrary made up rules by survivor players?
8 -
The reason Survivors dislike 'tunneling' is because
- They seem to think they're owed some 'fun' quota for the match, and should not be killed before they have fun
- They refuse to look at the Killer perspective
Let me work on #2:
What I mean is that, if 'tunneling' were mechanically punished, it would hurt Killers when they absolutely HAVE to kill someone now, or face a massive loss of momentum that costs the game.
On top of that, every 'fix' for tunneling or camping has been spiteful trash, or easily abuseable by Survivors. But most of the time, the people making these suggestions KNOW THIS, and want a mechanic that helps THEM win. They don't care about the Killer experience.
Also; the Killer DOES NOT have the time to 12 hook. It takes the Killer, on average, 13-14 minutes to 12 hook. It can take ONE survivor 6.66 minutes to do all 5 gens without skillchecks or items. Forcing Killers to not 'tunnel' or 'camp' will literally remove their ability to get any kills in a match.
And to top all that off; it's a PvP game. People will get removed. If being removed from this game comes as a surprise after 5 years; that's not the dev's fault.
It's also not up to you to decide how and when the Killer can kill. He's not an AI. If Survivors can genrush in 6 minutes & focus on their objective; why can't Killers?
Oh, right; because it makes Survivors sad. 🙄
14 -
I’d rather have camping nerf first than a tunnelling nerf, at least when being tunnelled you can play the game.
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My point is to make it clear that not everything that follows the rules is fun for both sides at the same time. I think it is elementary for the game that there should be a reasonable counter to all situations, tactics and perks, and I find it more than a pity that in topics such as tunnels and facecamping bubba has done virtually nothing to date. Maybe it's time to look not only at numbers and statistics, because they are not really meaningful in terms of fun in the game.
I'm not talking about punishing killers who use such strategies, but more about giving the survivors a proper counterplay in the form of perks to at least have a chance to participate in the game reasonably in these cases.
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To be clear, I play survivors and killers, so I am very familiar with both sides. Of course, it can be tactically correct to camp or tunnel, especially in the endgame.
However, there is talk of survivors abusing game mechanics, and that is exactly the point: currently, many killers abuse tunneling from the first hook or facecamping the first survivor to secure a kill quickly.
I don't want to punish killers across the board, I want survivors to have a fair chance to participate in the game for more than two minutes.
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Water will always flow down the path of least resistance. Killer playstyle will naturally gravitate towards the most efficient way to win the game. Many people fail to realise that tunneling out the weakest survivor is the most efficient way to play. There's only so much streamers and survivor mains can do to brainwash the rest of the community that tunneling is bad and survivors should have their "fun" at killer expense. Don't blame the killers who tunnel, blame the game design.
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0
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Tunneling is a tactic
1 -
Also give survivors less points when tunneling gens then? If a survivors is chased off a gen and they go back to finish that same gen instead of starting another gen = point reduction?
8 -
I sure am glad you're not part of the balancing team. Killers do not have the time to hook survivors 12 times, those games are an exception. But I'm not surprised to see that you didn't think this idea through, few who suggest balance changes do that.
6 -
I have similar idea before, but its a perk that allow you to share a hook stage to another survivor.
So if I see my team mate being tunneled and already get 2 hooks, me with the perk can share you a hook stage. Which you get 1 hook, I get 1 hook. Once per match.
Most of the time Killers cant afford first kill at his 9th hook. Though first kill at Killer's 3rd hook is certainly not fun for the tunneled survivor.
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Honestly I don't think anyone too invested in the game (i.e. the people that seethe and go "typical survivor/killer") will ever understand why most players tend not to like tunneling or genrushing. The simple answer is, it eliminates gameplay way too early like you said. This isn't a game like League where you continue to play until the objective is reached. Once someone speedruns the match or decides you're out within minutes of joining, that's it.
Leave it up to these same people to use fun passive aggressively in quotations. lol Isn't that the goal of any game? To have fun? Personally I play in a way that hopefully ensures everyone can have a good time. But most people don't and it's not against the rules not to, so it isn't some kind of demand. It'd just be nice to be less likely to be sweated out of the match so early, whether that's via hook or gens being completed way too quickly.
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They can balance later around that. The point is to rework hook system to make it pointless to tunnel for start. That would solve a lot of issues.
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Euhm... killers need to play in a way that ensures everyone else their fun, even if that comes at the expense of their own. Survivors can play how they want and not consider the killers experience? Playing to win only applies to one side.
The counter argument of it isn't fun for me, you must consider my fun... never seems to apply the other way. I never seen the survivors slow down the game and freely hand the killer pressure, because they are struggling and not having a good time... usually you get Baby Killer, learn to pressure! Yet when you do.... Not like that, that isn't FUN!
You have two opposing sides and both are trying to win. It is the nature of the game, each side will do things that aren't fun for the other. Telling people not to play to win or to simply outclass their opponents to have a chance is unrealistic. Survivors will slam gens and killers will kill as fast as possible. Those are their objectives afterall.
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Ah yes, that old excuse. "They can fix what they broke later."
Sorry, but no. Either it would be "fixed" in one step or not at all.
1 -
So better not fixing anything at all then? No patches, no bugfixes, no updates. Why patch a game if they don't fix every single problem in the game with one single patch? Yeah, better abandon the game completely. Good philosophy.
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Except why should a player who is constantly making mistakes and getting caught out have a free ride? Not to mention making survivors share the hook states nerfs the pressure hooks provides, because it doesn't matter if a survivor sits on a hook for a couple of minutes if the rest of the team finishes gens.
Your change idea is bad is because it rewards bad survivors.
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Yeah, if someone gets camped and tunneled - it's his mistake for not having a godmode and speedhack to outrun a 115% killer for 3 hours. But the "genrush" is somehow always a problem and not the killer's fault at all. I've heard that gymnastic before.
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Tunneling is a disease in 90% of matches because not only is it an effective strategy but in the vast majority of games survivors simply don't have the skill to do anything about it so they go down back to back to back until they're dead, it leads to a terrible gaming experience and is probably why the que times get longer and longer for this game because no one is queing up again after being on the receiving end of chain tunnels. Decisive Strike is a band aid fix for hard tunneling that usually results in 5 more seconds of freedom before, guess what, you get tunneled right after by the killer.
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I didn't mention genrush.
A killer removing a survivor from the game is not a problem regardless how fast it happens. There's no reason a survivor who constantly goes down to the killer, because they can't run the killer at all should be given so many chances due to hook sharing. On the flip side, it would absolutely suck as a survivor to watch your team eat up all the hook states so you die on first hook while the other survivors are still alive.
There is simply no scenario where survivors sharing hooks is healthy for the game.
5 -
Unsafe unhooks are kinda punishment. Cant we have the same for rehooks, etc?
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Killers don't need to do anything. Survivors don't need to do anything either. Everyone has the freedom to play the game the way that they like.
Personally, I do what I can to not push gens too hard and work on the other objectives I'm able to complete as survivor. I take protection hits and distract the killer when necessary as well. I do what I can to make sure my teammates get a good amount of time in during the match, while also maximizing the amount of points I can get. I also try not break Ruin the moment I see it or work on more than 2 gens per match (unless we're down to the wire).
Do I wish more people played like me? Of course. But do I expect anyone to? No. Like you point out, fun is subjective but it's nothing worth seething about or getting mad at anyone over. Naturally that goes for both roles. But I think it's fair to say that ending the match quickly and minimizing the amount of gameplay isn't the way most people prefer to play. Hence why nobody typically has anything nice to say about sweat.
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The real fix to tunneling is fixing the skill requirement of repairing gens. Right now, a good survivor can loop the killer way better than a bad survivor and waste much more of the killer's time. On a generator though, the good survivor and bad survivor are basically impossible to tell apart so the killer is highly incentivized to go after the bad survivor because the chase will be faster. If gens had a skill cap high enough that there was a noticeable difference between a good survivor on a gen and a bad one on a gen, the choice wouldn't be so easy.
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If you take your gameplay as survivor, I believe that it would prevent tunneling far more than anything they can do to a killer. From my perspective it are your teammates that can improve your chances against tunneling than anything else.
When I unhook someone I try and protect them, also nearly all my builds have borrowed time and I will flat out body block if needed to give my teammates time.
I am not as nice as you, I will cleanse the totem, I will push gens if needed and I will do my best to distract or loop to the best of my ability (which isn't amazing at all).
The issue is that people turn to their opponents to make the game fun for them instead of their own team.
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