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The Hatch and how it is treated in the end of a match needs some changes, and it's been long enough.
The Hatch is an interesting topic because no matter how you discuss this mechanic neither side will be happy in the discussion. Survivor can abuse DC'ing to give their fellow teammate the Hatch along with T Bagging on top of it and a Killer can be toxic by bringing a Survivor to the Hatch, closing it in front of them, hooking them or even going as far as to watch them bleed out.
The Hatch is not a fun or interactive mechanic for Killer specifically because it rewards the survivors for complete failure to finish their objective of doing generators. Even if the Killer completely dominates the match and not 1 gen is completed, you will time and time again see Survivors get lucky finding the Hatch, dragging out the match by waiting on the Killer to find them, proceeding to taunt them, and being rewarded with an escape for no justifiable reason. The Killer is meant to kill and Survivors are meant to survive, and the game has the trial laid out so the two sides can compete for who can complete their respective goal. The Hatch is naturally the opposite of this, it punishes success and killing 3 Survivors, or worse yet multiple Survivors escaping via a key for no reason, which is inarguably objectively unfair.
Naturally a Killer who wants to, you know, actually KILL all 4 Survivors may resort to slugging so the Hatch does not open. This is not fun for the slugged Survivor or really even the Killer. It is simply bad design that to ENSURE you kill ALL Survivors, which is THE objective for Killer, you must engage in a mechanic and strategy that is not interactive or satisfying.
So what can you do? Simple, make it so the final Survivor must engage in a new end game mechanic. Call it something like "Endgame Finale" or something, and make it one big final chase between Survivor and Killer. Both sides like the chase, so why not make the final Survivor go out with a bang Vs. the Killer? Reveal the Survivor for one minute and expose them, if they survive the minute they get spared by the Entity, if they are downed the Entity consumes them for failing.
I really want to see this game improve and become better for BOTH sides, the Endgame Collapse was a great change but this does not mean the end of the game is perfect. The Hatch is not a fun or engaging mechanic, and should be properly dealt with as such. Neither side should be rewarded with a free victory for failing their objective.
The Killer is not rewarded with a free kill, so neither should the Survivor be rewarded with a free escape. That is what is fair.
I'm certain people will disagree and that is fine, but to those who justify the Hatch, EVEN BEING OPENED VIA DC ABUSE, answer me this: If the Killer doesn't "need" to kill all 4 Survivors, why does the final Survivor "need" to escape?
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Survivors teabagging on the hatch is no reason to change anything about the hatch, period. Or I mean, I get teabagged by Ghostface, therefore his ability to do that needs to be changed. Killers hit me on the hook, therefore they shouldn't be able to use their weapon within a certain range of the hook.
The hatch sometimes rewards bad survivors, and sometimes it rewards a good survivor. I have had a lot of games where killers got more kills than they deserved because people dipped early with a key. I know a killer would never admit that's the case, but it's true regardless.
If you want to slug for the 4k, don't act like you are forced to do it. When I play killer, I don't care if someone gets the hatch. I'd rather move on to the next game and actually play than spend 5-10 minutes looking for the Claudette who has been hiding the whole game.
And killers literally ARE sometimes rewarded with free kills in the game now with End Game Collapse.
To answer your question "If the Killer doesn't "need" to kill all 4 Survivors, why does the final Survivor "need" to escape?" Why wouldn't a survivor use a means made available to win? You can close the hatch. You can slug. You move faster than the survivor. You can decide to take the time to look for the hatch if you're so scared someone might take it. Those are all things you can do to win, so why shouldn't survivors take the hatch if they have the chance to win? You see it as a "free win," and yet there are conditions that have to be met in order to escape via the hatch. You act as if the hatch spawns in instantly with a neon sign that only survivors can see and use whenever they want.
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Hatch is fine and a necessary evil. The last survivor isn't going to get a gen done by themselves unless it is already extremely close to being done when the second to last person dies. The same reason EGC was added is the same reason hatch has to exist, a survivor crouch walking around a map for 10-15 minutes cause they don't wanna dc and also don't wanna just die to the killer is not fun for either side.
Edit: This is ignoring keys, just talking about the baseline hatch mechanic and how it spawns for the last survivor.
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And then some teammates sit on the Hatch that they found for 10+ minutes while the rest of their teammates are trying desperately to have a proper game. Yes the Killer needs to slug because sometimes a Claudette with Iron Will will be impossible to find for a Killer, the Killer must slug to ensure that the remaining Survivor does not get a free escape. You are supposed to kill ALL Survivors. It is your objective and your goal. And because of this mechanic, to safely ensure that happens majority of the time, you MUST engage in an unfun playstyle because of this poorly implemented mechanic. You may not care if someone gets the Hatch, but others do and rightfully so, having someone escape despite their team failing feels bad. It is not fun and doesn't make sense, when you fail your objective, you lose and this goes both ways. This is how games work.
I understand WHY Survivors would want the Hatch, that's why I am trying to help find a solution so that both parties can be satisfied with the end of the game. I want an alternative, not just the Hatch deleted. Also there are no "conditions" for the Hatch to spawn, it spawns as a free escape for a Survivor if all 3 teammates are sacrificed, or of course DC'd. This happens even if not 1 single generator is completed, which is simply dumb. I know there are ways to help ensure they DON'T get Hatch, I am arguing that those methods are unfun for everyone and are a needed evil to ensure no one escapes, and are in desperate need of being changed.
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Which is why I offered a solution and am more than willing to hear other solutions. It is a necessary evil because an alternative is not being offered.
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What if its a map with two god pallets in a row? Or extremely safe pallets? There goes about 10-15 seconds of your extremely limited one minute. What if they get to an extremely safe structure/tile? You would basically auto lose as a killer vs a good looper if the path they take has resources available. Miss one mind game and add 10-15 seconds easy. On the flip side if this final chase began and you got dumped into a deadzone with no pallets nearby you just lose as a survivor instantly.
I don't think there is a good alternative because even if you heavily buff the last survivors repair speed, let's even pretend it's instant. The killer will know where the survivor is and once a chase begins it is going to be impossible for a survivor to lose the killer and spend 16 seconds opening the gate. The final chase is an interesting idea for sure but I feel like it has the potential for even worse experiences for both sides than hatch does.
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But you can actively search for the hatch when there are still two players left, or even before if the conditions are met so that you know where to go when it opens
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A minute was simply an idea, it is a solution I came up with off the top of my head within 5 seconds. A solution absolutely exists and that is why I am trying to bring ideas to the table so something can maybe, potentially, change. Or at the very least get people to talk about these mechanics. If the Survivor has those resources available, then fine. Sometimes they won't have any. It will naturally depend on the game. Either side could get lucky or unlucky, just like the rest of the mechanics in this game such as which map you get, what pallets spawn, etc.
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But you can only chase one Survivor at a time, and certain builds make it nearly impossible to find a Survivor who knows how to hide well on certain maps, using certain characters, etc. I'm not saying it is impossible for Killer because it's not, it's simply unreasonable and unsatisfying.
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Wait are we arguing about just the hatch opening for the last survivor here ?? That's a perfectly fine mechanic, 90% of the time I find it first and close it anyway but even if the survivor gets out what do I care I'm sitting on a 3k, hell a lot of the time I close it and down the survivor and let em out anyway just for one last chase.
You want to talk keys then I would agree they are dumb but that last survivor remaining 1v1 is a nice shake up to slightly different gameplay at the end of a clearly good match for me and it would be frankly boring if it was removed, even on the biggest of maps it shouldn't be taking you that long to find and close the hatch.
Edit: if the bming on the hatch bothers you that much I advise dancing with them, homie is making it out the game as the soul survivor he has every right to dance before leaving.
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It's not a fine mechanic. A Survivor getting a free escape even if not a single gen is completed is not a fine mechanic. It rewards complete and total failure.
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If I downed and killed 3 people at 5 gens and the last guy got the hatch I would call that a failure on my part if I wanted the 4k that badly, given I'm so in control of the game that I've obliterated them that hard I'm not going to let the hatch open until I'm in the strongest position to do so. You take 4ks very seriously and there's often times I don't show mercy and greed the 4k but I've never had the last guy escape and got angry at how unfair the hatch is and not just said gg.
You need to relax dude, you stomped them on a 5gen, that's good enough.
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First of all, it is a failure in game design. The Entity does not grab one of the 4 escaping survivor by the collar and go "Ah ah ah! The Killer needs his free kill!", that would be ridiculous and would be unanimously hated. Second of all, if I stomp a team without even 1 gen being completed, I absolutely deserve the 4k. Success should be rewarded, and to ensure that in this game you must engage in unhealthy and unfun play styles via slugging just to ensure you don't have someone have a free victory handed to them on a silver platter that they objectively accomplished nothing to deserve. Third of all, you may not care but the game and it's poor emblem system certainly does, the Killer not even pipping despite stomping a team besides the 1 Survivor who escaped via Hatch is poor design at it's purest. It is inexcusable and should not remain the way it is, not even close.
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Well I mean from a lore standpoint given the entity feeds off survivor hope the hatch makes perfect sense, also when I slug the 3rd survivor to bait out the last guy to rescue him I'll normally make sure the guy who played bait is the last 1 remaining to repay him for his service and given I'm allowing the 4th survivor to "help" the sluggie I'm also gambling the opportunity for them to outplay me and my master plan to backfire so there's zero morally wrong or bad gameplay about using that tactic, I'm giving them second chances so I can better track the last 2 and make sure they are both injured, it's simple set up.
And no matter what you say you don't deserve that 4k, you may have played really well for the 1st 3 kills but you clearly really sucked at putting any thought into winning the hatch 1v1 as you refuse to set it up so you win despite caring enough to write the whole essay you did about the hatch.
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There is nothing morally wrong about slugging yes, but it is not fun that this is required to consistently 4k. I don't care about lore, I care about good gameplay. That is what matters in a game like Dead By Daylight. The lore is a bonus, nothing more.
A Survivor does not deserve a free escape for completely and totally failing at their core objective and that is the truth. It is a bad mechanic and is not fun for the killer at all. A "Hatch stand off" shouldn't even exist, THAT is what I am arguing. And I am trying to find a solution to this that makes BOTH sides happy, so stop trying to reflect this as some personal issue. It is objectively bad design, a person being rewarded for performing poorly is by it's own innate nature bad design. You don't get a victory screen in Mario for losing all your lives.
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I really do not get what seems to be your obsession with this concept of 3k's not being victories at 5 gens.
What does the extra kill get you? Another 1k of BP? Congrats, spawn into the next game and you can get even more then that. The knowledge that you made the game last for ten more years because... 4k or no k?
Besides, it's not like hatch is completely free. Killers literally move faster then Survivors, giving you a base advantage of finding it first. (Even more so on a high-mobility Killer.)
Like, I play Killer quite a bit, but I've never understood this idea of 'If it's not a 4k it's not a win'. Can we not just... call it a win because you had a fun match? Or got a good amount of BP, or finished an archive challenge?? Or the fact that you got a 3k at 5 gens when many people can barely load into a match without feeling like a gen popped in the distance?
Idk bud, not trying to be rude or anything, but I don't get your point.
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Ha you think what we have now is a hatch stand off ? Oh boy, you know once upon a time you couldn't close the hatch ? Oh man I remember having to practice hatch interrupts and all the dumb mind games you would play with each other for 20mins+, that was dumb and what we have now is good.
You want to take away layers of the game to call it good, I say removing layers from the game and taking away opportunities for intelligent plays makes the game far worse.
If you don't set up your hatch properly you don't deserve the 4k it's that simple.
I remember well playing survivor and having the killer make the hatch unreachable before it could be closed and how absolutely draining it was to have to pop a gen alone while remaining hidden, it took forever and was unbearably boring for everyone involved.
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But you hook that one survivor and then either it's their first hook and you can bait the last one to go for the unhook, or it's their second hook and you can scan the area near the hatch waiting for the sneaky one to pop up, or if the hooked guy dies you just close it to prevent the last one from using it. You can also use offerings to make the hatch spawn at certain locations to make it easier to spot.
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My point is that it is bad design. If a 4k doesn't matter why does a free escape matter? All your teammates escaped, so why not give the Killer a free kill? It does not make sense. It's not about what you consider a "win", it's about rewarding objectively poor gameplay because you made the poor mistake of hooking that 3rd Survivor while his teammate is squatting on the Hatch. Even if you know EXACTLY where it is also, one of the final 2 Survivors can run as far away as possible so that when you hook them and they die, depending on what Killer you are playing as you cannot physically get there in time to close it before the final Survivor squats on it waiting for it to open.
and even with ALL of this said, the biggest issue is that it fundamentally does not make sense to reward someone who failed. Maybe if they came close to succeeding I could understand it, but Hatch without even 1 gen done? Come on.
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Hatch & escaping through the gates once it's closed just needs to count as both an escape for the survivor AND a kill for the killer, and give the killer the appropriate BP as well.
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This is literally just twisting what I have said. I want it CHANGED, not taken away. There are no "layers" to the Hatch. It is a mechanic that rewards failure and that is the truth, there is no proper reason WHY it should exist but because I understand being forced to die because of your team failing is not exactly fun, rather than have this completely taken away I desire for it to be changed into something enjoyable. The methods to prevent this are not interactive or fun for potentially both parties, and I want this changed. I want it changed to something more enjoyable for all players, both Survivors and Killers.
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??? I normally do give a Killer a free Kill if they were struggling lol. I've had games with my 3-man where we convinced the rando to die with us in EGC to give a baby Killer a 4k. (I actually did it last night to a Baby Hag who didn't understand how to set up a web, and had given up and stood in a corner at like 2 gens left.)
Plus, you could def argue Killers have the potential to do the same thing with certain perks in the game. (I mean, we all know how controversial NOED is, and you could definitely argue that or facecamping is, in itself, ways that the Killer can, in base kit, get what are pretty free kills. Not saying their fair, but I think there is a bit of comparison to be made.)
Idk, I've always seen it less as 'rewarding bad behaviour' and more so 'Giving them a last, lucky chance to escape'. Because, to me, that's what a hatch escape always feels like in a context like this- a lucky escape. And considering everything else in this game that you could argue is unfair or encourages poor behaviour, I definitely think it's one of the least agregous examples we have.
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It won't get changed. Too many stubborn people and survivor mains who think random free escapes are balanced. I can already see the mental gymnastics people are using to take down your very well thought-out/ explained argument. Hatch is just the flawless gem of this game, I guess!
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