The Only Survivor Perk That Should be Base IMO
I really think the only perk that should be base is a weaker borrowed time (weaker as in shorter timer). It really feels like it is the only perk that would be nice to have as a base without being obnoxious. Make it only 6 seconds, and make the borrowed time perk just increase the timer to 12 seconds, or maybe 8 seconds, and the perk makes it 16 seconds. Would still make the perk useful, but having borrowed time feels more necessary than any other survivor perk to me, I feel awful when I don't use it, and I feel bad when a teammate doesn't have it and I get farmed. I would also say maybe something similar to Kindred would be nice for a solo queue.
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I think a better idea would be a survivor perk that prevents notifying a killer that the survivor has been unhooked would be bette. This way when a survivor gets unhooked the killer doesn't immediately come back to the hook.
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I guess that would be a fun niche perk but it doesn't really help any problem stated, also the killer could just look down to the left and see the icon change from hooked to injured. Borrowed time helps you perform saves around a camper or proxy camper. It is an extremely effective and almost necessary perk, that is why I believe it should be base to some degree. Thanks for the perk idea though I guess.
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And to Balance that, the Killer need to have RUIN tier 1 as base kit. and since you also included Kindred then lets throw BBQ tier 1 too as a base kit. It's only fair :).
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Honestly yeah, I think kicking gens should provide much more regression, like ruin tier 3 regression if you kick a gen, or even make kicking a gen require the survivor to work on it for a couple of seconds to stop the regression. But also, BBQ isn't a perk that is usually required. I included kindred as a maybe as well since solo queue is at a definite disadvantage, and kindred is a perk that doesn't really help SWF, only solo queue so it wouldn't make SWF stronger. BBQ is just a perk that is helpful but not necessary so I don't know why that would have to be made base.
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Obviously the Killer no longer need to kick a Gen if he get Ruin lv1 as base kit, and by that the gen tap is removed since gen will start to regress anyway.
BBQ for aura reading as incentive for killer to start a new chase ofc, so i think it works with kindred very well since survivors can see the killer if he camp or not.
-So survivors can have safe unhooks with BT = to Killer saving time by not kicking gens
-Survivors can see camping Killer = to Killer seeing further survivor as incentive to not camp hook and start a new chase
Extras:
-Survivors can use a text chat with cooldown to make it bit easy in soloQ, and in return Killer can use an interactive totem map when loading in to choose one of the potential totem spawn as his hex spawn.
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I'd be fine with unhooked survivors being completely immune to damage and collisions, if they were ALSO unable to work on gens or heal themselves or others for, like, a minute. Other people could heal them, but no self-caring while you're invulnerable.
Like it or not, going after the same guy is the only non-perk way to stop gen progress with any reliability. The speed of 4 survivors on gens is completely untenable for mid to late game and there's no default way to break that up other than trying to drop the players down to 3.
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I support this idea.
If Borrowed Time was basekit, maybe camping wouldn't have been a thing like it is today.
But I'm not sure if i would have used the perk for an extra 16 seconds though. could it be a waste of slot?
I'm using this perk a lot and 16 seconds is very good for saving from the basement.
How about a special effect that gives 16 seconds in the basement without having to use this perk?
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Not everything in the game balance-wise needs to be equal, some things need more attention than others but anyways I shall begin.
- Making Ruin Tier 1 as base wouldn't work. Tier 1 Ruin is weak, it's the same as a normal gen kick, that is why it isn't used. It also would mean every single gen kicking perk would have to be reworked or scrapped. Making Ruin tier 2 or 3 regression multipliers as a base for kicking would be so much better.
- BBQ is already an incentive for killers to start a new chase and it obviously doesn't always work like that. If a killer is going to camp, a perk won't just change his mind even if he knows where they are, and good killers already leave to start new chases. BBQ is good for killers that can quickly zoom to a gen that needs protecting but it is not necessary. Also this would mean BBQ would have to be reworked. More work for behavior, they already have a hard time reworking and buffing things at a good pace.
- BT is a strong candidate for base perk because 1) it would mean survivor builds could be more unique and have an extra slot and slowly stop being so meta heavy, and 2) when it is needed, it is necessary. If the killer is camping, BT punishes him, but if the killer plays good by not tunneling or camping, BT wasn't needed and neither side is punished. BT also wouldn't really need reworking, just make it effect the timer of the base BT.
- A text chat wouldn't super help the solo queue. It would not only take time to text, but console probably wouldn't be able to do it, meaning solo queue for 3 out of 4 of the consoles wouldn't get help. A better idea would be an icon wheel. Pull it up, and quickly choose an icon to appear next to your survivor portrait saying what you are doing or going to do.
- Kindred was only an option as well because again, it is a perk that doesn't punish the killer, but helps solo queue without giving advantages to SWF. It is very helpful and it sucks because solo queue almost NEEDS it to even have a functioning time.
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I am aware that killing a survivor is the strongest thing to win the game and make it easy mode. Making BT as a base would be an incredibly easy, and non-abusable way to help with the camping problem, as well as allowing more creativity in survivor builds. Putting a survivor on time out for ONE MINUTE for just being unhooked is insane and makes me understand the devs never listening to the community.
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"Survivors should get a free perk by default!"
Okay, how about "Killers should get BBQ by default." Or "Killers should get Corrupt Intervention by default." Or "Killers should get Sloppy Butcher by default." Or a zillion other suggestions.
And you SAY devs never listen to the community, but Moris got nerfed into uselessness by survivor whining. Hillbilly, Pyramid Head, Freddy, and others got huge nerfs for the sake of survivor whining. Survivors got a per-person hook counter for free for survivor whining. Survivors got an always-on Obsession marker to make the killer think somebody's got Decisive Strike for free, due to survivor whining. Survivor tracking perks trump killer stealth already and more keep getting added to that list with the Iron Will buff. I mean heck, Borrowed Time used to not work vs. stealth killers or unique terror radiuses like Freddy, and THAT got buffed to always function too.
So who knows what's next. Enough survivors whining and they'll end up with 8 perks each.
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Yeah with a million people screaming about changes a couple of them will stick. This post was about survivor base perks, its a whole separate discussion about killer base perks. Honestly, I don't feel like any killer perks need to be base, just their actually stats changed like better gen kicking percentages and regressing. Just because you hate survivors or think it is unfair doesn't mean we should start sabotaging the game. Never did I say "KILLERS DESERVE NOTHING KEEP BUFFING SURVIVOR" I was stating a good change that would be healthy to the game. Base killer changes need to happen too, but that was not the point of the discussion. Those changes you discussed were made for a reason because they were either abusable or unhealthy with the game. Stop with all the whataboutism and if you actually care about the game then care about the game and not just how much your side can ruin it for the other
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I'm sorry but BT being base kit is ludicrous. It would encourage bad play and toxic behavior from survivors.
The perk itself was already given a buff to counter stealth killers by no longer requiring the heartbeat to activate (this was reasonable and ok buff imho). It helped get rid of the tons of Freddy players who abused his lullaby not counting as a terror radius.
The problems with making it base kit.
Survivors would no longer try to make good unhook plays. They would just run in unhook and run out regardless of killers proximity. This will cause more face camping and extremely frustrate new killers.
Body blocking is already an issue with BT plays at red ranks. An unhooked survivor has 12 seconds to block a killer from chasing their teammate after an unhook. If killers swing to hit BT, the blood wipe + speed boost give ample opportunity to gain lots of distance.
It would effectively null out endgame for killer. If a survivor runs BT now, they use up a perk slot for the chance to make a clutch end game escape. If base kit the doors being opened means whoever is left in game immediately is guaranteed escape.
BT is designed to be risk/reward. Base kit BT removes all risk and triples the reward regardless of time alloted to endurance status.
Edit: It's not just toxic survivor either, you'd see a lot more slug build oriented killers 😑
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I agree that killers should be incentivized to take out the person doing the unhooking, rather than the person who's just been hooked. This is the intent of the perk, and on a base level, I agree with this premise.
To be clear: Tunneling one person out of the game (the weakest person on the survivor team, ideally) is the fastest way to slow generator speed to a manageable level. 4 people on generators is generally only possible if the killer is AFK, so generally speaking, you've got 1 in chase (or hiding and distracting the killer) and 3 on gens. If you down and hook somebody, one person has to break off to unhook, that that drops it to 2. If you've taken out one person, then each hook takes it down to 1 person on a generator, which is far slower and gives the killer a chance to catch up from the 2-3 gen pops 90 seconds after the game starts.
What both sides need is a reason why the killer should go after the full health person who unhooked instead of the half-health person who's just been unhooked. Borrowed Time does not do this.
What Borrowed Time does, effectively, is discourage the killer from going after the recently hooked person for 10 seconds, which gives them loads of time to get to the nearest strong loop. Chasing after the healthy survivor MIGHT get you an early hit, but they will definitely reach a loop anyway, so you're no better off than just counting to 10 and trying to down the other guy. Because there's no penalty for having Borrowed Time put on you, (and a completely insignificant mend state if you bait the killer to actually hitting you), if you don't get chased, you're just going to jump on a gen or med-kit yourself to full right off the bat and the gen rush continues as before.
Additionally, survivors have 3 hooks on their belts, and all survivors can see how close everybody is to death, so the one doing the unhooking probably isn't somebody very near to going out. Killers can get 8 hook and still never kill a survivor, which means those gens just keep flying exactly as fast as they were at the start of the game.
So, what COULD encourage a killer to go after the person unhooking instead of being unhooked? Maybe if the one that got unhooked had a huge speed buff and the one unhooking had a speed penalty, the obvious choice would be for the killer to go after the new person instead. But that's a give-and-take mechanic, not a flat buff. And it sounds like you're just fishing for free Borrowed Time (and free Kindred, I note, rereading the initial post).
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"Not everything in the game balance-wise needs to be equal" I agree, Killer side need to be stronger.
- Ruin lv1 is fine since it will make the killer save time without punishing survivors too much for leaving gens by making base kit overpowered. Ruin lv2 as base kit will make survivors demand for nerfs day 1 guaranteed, and for good reasons.
- BBQ still an incentive to start new chases. Saying that some players use it but not take the chases doesn't automatically reflect on the purpose of BBQ. I can say the same thing about BT that a killer will tunnel even if the Survivor have BT. And no BBQ doesn't need rework by making it base kit, i think it's fine as is, and could help reducing campers. since most campers choose to camp due to them having no clue where survivor are. And yes i am aware of the ones that do it as a religion, and tbh no survivor perk gonna save you from them if they decided to play for the sole purpose of camping.
- Any perk with a good argument can be considered a strong candidate to be base kit, not just BT tbh. " it would mean survivor builds could be more unique and have an extra slot" it can also translate to killer to have extra slot and unique build to shake up the meta.
- Many games have text chat on PC while don't on Console, it's nothing out of the ordinary. I rather have text chat on PC than emotes or whatever form of icon since it won't be accurate since there will be limit on how many icons/emotes, so maybe Console users can have that but for PC users it is best to have text chat, and it won't take too much time since PC users are already used to texting while competing. The only one that won't be able to chat is the one being chased, but that can be resolved by commands like in Counter Strike.
- But Kindred do punish Killers like hag or trapper, and also hurt killer that use camping as a strategy when camping is needed.
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I actually agree with what's said in this post, remove BT, Kindred, bbq abd ruin and make them sort of base kit in a nerfed way this way would make soloq better without making swf stronger since they don't benefit as much for kindred and killer would still be benefited by those 2 changes. I think the devs should consider some variation of this to introduce more variety on builds and playstyle.
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Ok its clear you don't actually know a lot about balance and not that it matters but you sound fairly young or new.
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I can agree with a lot of this actually, and thank you for asking talking about the post and not breaking it off to some side topic. I would still like some form of BT as base and it would be super helpful, but i agree it could cause some problems in those situations especially late game. Would you be fine with BT base if it maybe operated in a way where maybe late game it was even disabled unless using the actual perk?
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Personally if it was a for sure 100% needed base kit extension to counter tunneling/camping I would fix 1 main issue and add a slight change to the coding.
The main issue that needs to be resolved would be server registration. I can swing at the unhooking survivor and still somehow register a hit on the BT target throwing the entire thing out of wack. This also needs to be addressed with grabs being interrupted mid-animation and window hits that happen extremely late but that is for an entirely different thread honestly.
The only workaround I see would be something like giving the unhooked player 1-3 seconds of invulnerability. Meaning no collision, no hit register, no heal register (stops self-care/for the people/purple medkit addons etc). This would need to be disabled when exit gates are opened/end game collapse has started. Leaves the 99% game play, since it still runs risks and would be a hard nerf on survivors otherwise.
If it was entirely base line kit then I would like to see the blood wipe stay the same but the speed boost for the hit on the unhooking survivor cut down to 80% it's normal speed or maybe cut it's time duration in half. Both don't unfairly punish the killer but also force survivors to actually make a decent unhook play. If you unhook you're putting yourself in a position to get downed quickly if you do it unsafely.
It could work with nuance fixes and some slight QOL changes but the current BT even with endurance cut in half would alienate all new killer players and stifle growth of survivors.
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" its clear you don't actually know a lot about balance" Says the one that wanted to give survivors free perks when they already have it easy. And also wanted Ruin lv2 as base kit instead of lv1 lol ok then. U clearly don't even know what balance means by your logic of thinking m8.
" you sound fairly young or new." 24yo, played since 2018. thank you for your input.
I think this conversation is over since you derailed it.
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This mindset is just toxic to the game as a whole, and it is pretty clear you are just a killer main that think survivors have it super easy lmao. Both sides have struggles, this game should be a community that helps make the game better in a whole. If you saw what I put, I didn't say ruin tier 2 or 3 just as base, I said the percentage of regression they apply should be base for when you KICK A GEN. Ruin can stay the same, it doesn't need to be base, just make kicking a gen actually provide some better regression. Right now if a gen is 99'd, it would take 159 seconds (give or take) to fully regress it with a regular kick. That is awful for the killer. Making kicking the gen do double that percentage would be so much better, instead of removing kicking but keeping that percentage, because that is what tier 1 ruin does. With you buff idea you were actually screwing over killers more lmao
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