Sorry, but I need to tunnel and proxy camp

So because you don't agree with someone else playstyle you call them a "bully", shame, and report them? Sorry to say, but I think the real bully here isn't the killer.

Its not abusive or cheap, its just boring for you. Understandably so, but you're not entitled for the killer to play your way the same way they're not entitled to you playing their way.

I could report you for throwing the game and working with the killer for playing into their hands, but I don't. Survivors who play into it are just bad at the game and don't know any better or don't care about anyone else's match but their own. You're making the situation worse for your entire team by throwing yourself at the camper, and you're encouraging not only the camping behavior, but other survivors doing the same.

I don't play to win either, but that doesn't mean I act like everyone else should. You don't push your playstyle on other people just because that's how you like it. It'd be like someone saying "stop playing for fun play to win."

Playing to win is completely understandable and reasonable as long as its within the confines of the rules.

I don't like it either, but I understand that's just how it is, people are allowed to be competitive against other people, not just bots (although a better bot mode wouldn't hurt just sayin).

Unless you want to split the community between casual and competitive ques, its not happening, and even then there's no way to enforce people won't try hard in the casual que or use it for practice, so really there's no real solution afaik.

"I think many killers would be able to understand the situation. And eventually, stop that "bully" strat. I can accept it like a situational strat but not as the way to go since the beggining."

Understand what? That people don't like getting camped? They already know that, but it gets them wins so they keep doing it. So stop giving them wins. Its not a bully strat just because you don't like it. Otherwise doing gens quickly is a bully strat for the survivors. I don't agree with either of those.

Furthermore on that point, its not like survivors are running around "hey guys lets not do gens too fast killers don't like it." Both sides need to agree to either play for the fun of everyone or to play to win. Right now the majority survivor mentality is "We play to win but the killer has to play for our fun."

That's not even remotely fair to the killer so they just don't follow the rules. A good first step would to make something that allows both sides to have fun, not only expecting survivors to be worried about. You want killers to stop camping and tunneling, stop slamming gens and t-bagging/clicking would be a nice start. You want hatch for a rough game, give the killer a sacrifice for a rough game.

But that's not what (most) survivors want they just want their fun catered to, and that's not right. All these post I see complaining about camping, I never see them consider "yeah maybe we should go a little easier on killers as well."

The tactic doesn't work against any good survivor team, swf or not. The only thing is potatoes are in red ranks so they get mixed in with everyone.

A team of good solos still have the advantage against killers. For example I have a group I play with where one of the players is deaf and no one talks to each other or co-ordinates anything. For all intents and purposes we are on the same ground as 4 solo players. When a killer is camping we all know what to do.

I've play solo as well and when I get matched with others who know what to do the result is the same

Like I said, the only ones falling for campers are people bad at the game or those who refuse to change their playstyle. Camping is not the issue the players are. I don't like it but I can't make people play the correct way or the way I want. I can only encourage.

You can't fix unskilled or unwilling with game changes, the community has to do that. As long as survivors are unwilling to work with killers to find a common ground, not happening.

Ok thats good and thank you for doing that, I try to do the same. Let me clarify that in that paragraph you quoted I'm not singling out you specifically, I was using the general you, you yourself are one in a large community.

I'm trying to say that survivors as a whole need to do this if they really want to see a change. Like I said I also play to have fun way more often than not, but as long as that is the minority or players, its going to stay the minority of cases where that happens.

Would I like people to play more for fun? Yes absolutely, but I can't force them to nor is it reasonable to get mad because they don't especially in the current climate of the game. I can only encourage it and really think more people should encourage it as well. As is, way more survivors are encouraging the unfair mindset I outlined, hence the "entitled survivor" stereotype.

As currently is I play for fun, but I don't expect others to play that way because I understand that's how the community is set up.

But we can't change that with in game changes, the community as a collective needs to agree to do that. On that I think the chances are extremely slim.

I'll still say that needs to happen, but I really don't think its going to. But that chance is there, especially if we can push the message. We have had those before like with the big console thread that's happening, the colorblind push, or the "no NoED" movement that happened a long time ago, so who knows.

No, but in solo play, if I don't see a rescue happening, I'm going to assume that whoever went for the rescue is in chase, and I'll check it myself. I can end up crossing the map to find the killer sitting under hook, at which point I need to get back to a gen ASAP if I don't want to risk a second person getting locked out of the game for two minutes.

'Just slap on Kindred'

There seems to be literally not a single piece of feedback that can be given from survivor perspectives that won't be met with 'Just equip [bandaid perk]'. There's four perk slots and way more gameplay holes. Use that approach for your own problems: trouble with genrushing? Just slap on Corrupt, Surge, Eruption AND Pop. If you don't do that, don't complain.

What killers fail to realise about the 'three gens in one hook' thing is that, from there, survivors are at halfway, but the common scenario is that they lose 66% of their work speed from that point. One on hook, one in chase, one rescuing/healing, and only one on gens. The reason gens go fast early is because they go slow late. Killers shouldn't -always- have the upper hand.

That's not the point.

The point is that any killer can, at a whim, make the game unplayable unless the survivor is decked out with DS + BT + UB. That's three perk slots sacrificed to make the game -playable- (Not winnable, playable) in case of a killer with a foul mood. That leaves us ONE perk slot to choose for build diversity, and this is gonna be SG/DetHunch for NOED, Kindred against camping or Spine Chill for stealthers.

There's tons of survivor perks that are okay-ish or fun and they just don't get picked up because without the holy trinity of the oft-complained about survivor meta, the game can quickly become unplayable.

Survivors either don't get to choose their perks, or a killer can simply opt to make the game miserable for them. This isn't healthy design. This is a perk tax.

And then it doesn't even blooming fix it!

No, they don't -have- 66% speed. They LOSE 66% speed. They go down to 33% and that's assuming your chase doesn't carry you past a gen that's being worked on, which temporarily sets it to zero.

And ideally, you'll be cycling survivors. Which means that the person on the gen will at one point be stuck in one of the other roles, leaving their gen behind, and there's no guarantee that another survivor will find it. Slap on a gen regression perk, and you can slow the game down to a crawl. That's why Pop is considered so powerful: It won't crash the genrush, but once the first hook is done, it can massively diminish what survivors can do.

But all of that is secondary to the big concern that genrushing is -required- against camping. So either we fix both issues, or we fix neither. If it's up to the forums, survivors just have to give up their gen speeds and allow a facecamper to always, unconditionally, get a 2K at worst. If that catches on, the game dies within a month. No one wants to play a camping match.

As I said, there's ways to fix genrushing, but not as long as camping is a thing.

Playing killer is laughably easy for newer players. Then when killers rank up before they actually learned the game, they're shocked when survivors are actually good and they never realize they weren't good at all, the survivors were just really bad.

If playing killer is stressful, stop playing the game. It's a game. It should be fun. I'm a survivor main and have a lot of fun playing killer. But yeah, you're right, it was easy to run a killer for five gens and then get left on my first hook without a single teammate even trying to save me :):):)

The game has never been easier for killer.

This makes me sad

Like I said before sometimes you have to take a hit for the team, this is part of the game and survivors need to realize that you can't have all 4 active at the same time. Its not "unplayable", you're playing the game, you're just dealing with something you don't like: waiting for help from your teammates in a team based game or helping your team by distracting the killer because he's camping you. Part of playing the game is the waiting/distraction game.

Its not a 1v1 its a 1v4. One survivor can't make progress, but the others can and should. One individual survivor will have literal down time.

It doesn't need to "blooming fix it", there's already a base kit fix like I said if you read the full post. You have a gameplay fix already, you don't need another one in a perk. It helps you be more effective, that's it. That's fine, you can do it base kit, its effective, and this helps it.

I did misread the 66% part a bit and thats on me, but like I outlined later if you read the full post, with 1 survivor on a gen a.k.a. the amount you're left with after you lose the 66%, the killer still should generally only get 3-5 hooks in a decent team.

The chase will last long enough (generally) against a good survivor that the gens will pop during the chase. this is what happens at the beginning of the game. 1 chase last long enough for 3 single survivors to do their gens. If you leave a chase to start another and that new survivor is also good, great now you just wasted more time and the gen the previous survivor jumps on will pop during the new chase, even assuming they get on a new one. A survivor getting on a new gen isn't really a big deal because gen speeds are so fast compared to chase speeds with a good survivor team. A gen should not pop in 1 chase with 1 survivor on it, 3 gens should not pop in 1 chase with 1 survivor on each. There's 5 gens that need to be done and 12 hooks. There is a large fundamental speed imbalance.

"But all of that is secondary to the big concern that genrushing is -required- against camping."

Being secondary is true. Although I don't see it as a "concern". You have an answer to the playstyle, what's the concern? That its specifically genrushing? Why is genrushing being the required counter a concern? Its a base kit ability of the survivor to focus gens, what's the issue with it being a counter to camping, another base kit thing killers can do?

"So either we fix both issues, or we fix neither."

This is not true. You can fix the genrush when a killer is not camping by increasing gen times. You can leave genrushing as a counter to camping by making the sacrifice timer take longer so with the new gen times the same result happens. I said this earlier I believe. If you want you can make the sacrifice take long enough to where the killer only gets 1 kill camp with survivors focusing gens.

But one does not need to be fixed for the other. Camping and genrushing are not the equivalents for both sides, that'd be genrushing and tunneling.

You already have a solution to camping, it doesn't need a "fix" because there already is one that any decent team can do. More survivors just need to do it. Instead of complaining for the devs to fix something that you already have the base kit fix for, maybe we should encourage more people to use said fix. So we can actually focus on things that actually do not have a sufficient current fix in the game.

Why are we saying "we cant fix gen rush in a normal match till we remove camping" when camping already has a base kit solution and these two are not equivalents. Oh gens take longer? Whats the thing that already kept camping in check? Gen speeds + sacrifice speeds. Ok so just increase the sacrifice speeds as well to match.

"hanging on a hook while a killer is staring at you isn't 'playing the game'."

You're in the game and its part of playing it, so again just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not part of the game. Its similar to hiding in hide n' go, are you actively doing anything? No. Are you playing the game. Yes.

Its not for you or me to decide what is and is not part of the game, thats the devs. To my understanding, according to them its part of playing the game/is allowed.

"Camping is a complete game design failure and must be rectified."

Not really, you just don't agree with the playstyle. The most I can give you is that its subjective and that's your opinion.

"Right, the mythical 'genrush', where you hope you can clear the gens and open the gates faster than the killer can stare at the first hook. Great counter, fantastic gameplay, 10/10."

If I can do it, and other people say to do it because it works, and it has been shown to work, its not "mythical". It is a counter. If more survivors did it camping would go down, but they don't. Oh well. They're playing a large part in their own campy misery as far as I'm concerned and can see.

"Then let me quote every single killer main on this forum when faced with any gameplay critique: Git gud.

OR

Accept that camping is a problem and both sides of the game can make a trade to solve both issues at the same time.'

But when the players "git gud" is exactly where the problem arises. Because (usually) theres not much the killer can do with the current game balance against a good team, even if the killer is also good.

gitting gud is exactly the reason why the problem exist. So thats already happened.

Unless you're just trying to use it as a cop out for your lack of an argument, in which case: you struggle against camping? Git gud skrub.

Camping is not a problem to me. I don't believe its a problem in general as its not causing a balance issue as well as it has a base kit counter. It is to you for whatever reason. If people like you want it gone you have 2 options in your direct control that you can start working on right now:

1) Counter it with the base kit counter you already have so killers can't climb with it and stop doing it because it makes them lose

2) Come to a compromise with the killer community and the survivor community to play for fun and not to win

"The concern is that you, and about half of these killer-main infested forums are adamant that this counter should be removed. (And NOED exists, whose counter is mutually exclusive with that of camping)"

I don't want gen rushing removed so please do not assume, but at least put on par with tunneling in terms of speed, which its not. Both of these are optimal strats for either side, they should be equivalent. I also want an actual adequate counter to gen rushing because as of right now there isn't one. Survivors will still win if you tunnel since in 3-5 hooks at most thats a 1k, so a survivor victory.

Thats a survivor victory just because they held m1 and the devs decided thats going to be way faster than the killer actively chasing and downing for their objective.

If survivors want to play to win by focusing gens then fine. If killers want to play to win by tunneling then fine. But these should be equal in power. Right now its survivor skewed.

What I really want is for both gen rushing and tunneling to be designed out the game.

As for NoED, if they camping when they got time to NoED anyone? If you did it right you guys will be out well before the 2nd person dies, the the killer isn't chasing anyone they're camping. If you didn't your team did something wrong.

"And in addition, it's not fun. One person not playing, the other three just holding M1 on gens without any threat from the killer, and the killer himself just watching a screensaver. I keep saying it: If every killer started facecamping tomorrow, the game would be dead before the end of the week. No one wants to play this. The only reason the game hasn't been crippled is because the majority of killers either prefer fun over victory or are actually good enough to not need to camp. But we shouldn't need to hang by on a thread of sheer goodwill."

On this I can agree with. Its boring on both sides. I can't stand camping as a killer because I don't just want to stand around. I am one of those players who prefers fun over victory. However, thats my decision and my opinion. If people think their win is more important then their fun, then so be it. Some people have fun by playing to win. Might not be fun for me, but to them it might be. People can play to win, thats fine. However these same people will stop camping if survivors used the counter against it and stopped giving them wins since the only reason why they are camping is because it gets them wins.

I have a friend who camps every game, when I asked why they said "because why am I going to go and look for survivors when they're going to come to me and give me the win themselves."

"Except the increase in sacrifice timer means survivors aren't under as much pressure to get unhooks,"

Imo, the pressure to unhook should be because the killer is downing your team and making you weaker, if all 4 of you are hooked at once the game is over for you. Not because of some arbitrary timer. The timer can be 5 years, but the gens just have to take long enough where its reasonable for the killer to down your entire team before you can finish them if you don't get a good number of saves and for the killer to get however many hooks we want killer's to aim to get, popular number seems to be 12. I don't consider ~4 saves and they survivors escape because the gens were done in 5 minuets or less a "good number".

If the sacrifice timer took 1 hour, but the killer can get 12 hooks if they play well/better because gens don't fly, camping evaporates and you have more interactive games.

As long as the survivors feel pressured to get an unhook because of some timer, the killer can camp because they don't have to put the pressure on, the timer will. The pressure needs to be shifted away from the timer and onto the killers own actions, but that cant happen with current gen times as the killer cannot put out enough pressure on their own in the gen timeframe.

"again, killers average around 60% kill rate or higher on red ranks."

Again, those killrates are unreliable to draw any concrete conclusion as stated by the people who released them themselves.

"Top 1% balancing"

I do NOT want top 1% balancing, I really dislike top 1% balancing, I want good player balancing. We don't even have that much. With good players survivors stomp and outside of 3-5 killers (depending on who you ask), the killer roster isn't viable.

Heck, a lot of my friends are just decent and that's enough to roll over a lot of killers if we play together. Right now killers need a bad player on the survivor team to stand a chance. Its frustrating for both sides. Killer's feel like they can't win because they survivors just aren't bad, and the survivors feel like they lose just because they had a bad teammate.

"You said it yourself, there's plenty of potatoes in red ranks"

Fix matchmaking/ranks, balance killers accordingly.

"So hook progression is slowed when the killer is under the hook and not in a chase"

They tried this before and survivors abused it. So you can blame them for that not being a thing anymore.

As for your suggestion, again you'll need a better anti-camp measure as that won't work as it'll favor the survivors way too much. But otherwise I can see it maybe working, but my concern is "ok killers in chase 3 way a gen. Oh he's here someone lead him away. Ok duo the gen now since he can only chase one person."

Wouldn't hurt to test with a better camp system, but honestly just increasing gen and hook times to be to where way more of the match plays out would be much simpler imo. Make the killer have to apply pressure but give them the time to do so and you don't even need to make a whole new system behind it, just slam up some numbers. Camping solved the killer needs to make pressure themselves, gen rush solved if you give the killer enough time to do so, all that's left is tunneling.

The problem with tunneling is that its optimal. So we'd need to make it not optimal. Possible solution could be something like: survivors no longer have individual hooks, once the killer fills up the 12 hook gauge to 8, the next hook for each survivor will sacrifice them. Just spitballing so that probably has some kinks, but you should get the idea.

Camping is actually a pretty poor technique for winning if you have a team of survivors who know what you are doing and are willing to sacrifice the fourth member (which you might as well do anyway as you just end up getting into a cycle of unhooking and not doing any gens).

You can get plenty of gens done in the time it takes for one survivor to die on the hook from first hook. Or if one survivor is good at evading the killer.

On a match a few days ago I was getting tunneled but had decent team mates who would flashlight or heal. By the time I'd been twice hooked the others had done the remaining four gens. I escaped using the hatch, cause I had a key, and the other three escaped.

So despite using underhand tactics the killer gained nothing anyway. The funny thing is he was good at knocking people down. But his insistence on chasing me was his downfall could have hooked the others at least three times.

Camping or proxy camping only works if other survivors come to rescue each other and unless the hooked survivor has 'Kindred' equipped, which is a rare one these days, generally about two do end up going for the unhook cause you cannot see what other people are doing you have to, at some point, hedge your bets and go for it. This means that people are actively participating and not just pinging gens so the logic there is flawed too imo.

Forgot to mention that I also run Empathy at times instead of Kindred.

It's pretty underrated in solo, imo, as it lets you know where the killer is once he lands the initial hit/if he is continuing the chase.

It's just exhausting to argue when any time I try to be open about survivors having it bad, someone doesn't even acknowledges my points and just makes it a penius measuring contest about who has it worse.

I kinda blew a fuse about why is it always the survivor's fault? because whenever I make a statement about survivors having it bad, people instantly jump on me saying killers have it worse. This doesn't happen when I say killers have it bad, oddly enough. In my first comment, did I say survivors have it worse? Not in the slightest. Both sides have their flaws, but I'm just focusing on why I feel like camping / tunneling can be frustrating, that's it. If you want to have the measuring contest, take it to someone else.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with proxy camping in

many situations and sometimes you gotta tunnel as the game is reaching the end point. They gotta get over it and "get good"

"If you want to have the measuring contest, take it to someone else."

I'm going to assume this is the general you and not directed at me since you brought up x side having it worse to me.

I can understand being frustrated, it happens on both sides and it should stop. On this forum alone is common to see someone say anything about killer problems and someone soon after will say something along the lines of "killer is easier now than its ever been stop complaining" for example, or a survivor problem and like you said "doesn't matter, killers have it worse"

I understand camping and tunneling can be frustrating, and that's coming from someone who isn't bothered by either when it happens to them. I'm saying both sides need to compromise for each other if we want the game to be more fun overall.

However, one of the biggest hurdles and something that has been around for a long time is the amount of survivors that do not understand that and only want the other side to make changes for them. I'm not saying its only and all survivors, but its the majority of them and more of them % wise than killers. This is why I and other have either never or extremely rarely seen a "nice" survivor, but bump into "nice" killers on a not rare basis.

It's going to be much harder to get the survivor community on board because they are (generally) much more entitled and encourage each other to continue being so. We already have a chunk of killers playing the nice game. We need survivors to at least match that amount before we can make it better. But right now virtually none of them do.

If you keep being nice and all you get in return is genrush, gg ez, t-bag at gate, and most importantly, no return of kindness, you're going to stop.

Don't get me wrong, entitled killers are definitely there, but its just nowhere near the same quantity as the survivors. It still should be reduced though.

I just wish both side could agree:

S: "Hey X gets in the way of our fun"

K: "Ok well Y gets in the way of ours and also is the reason why we do X"

S: "Ok lets both not do either"

For something like tunneling and camping for example, instead it's more like:

S: "Hey tunneling and camping gets in the way of out fun"

K: "Ok ,well gens going too fast get in the way of ours and is also the reason why we tunnel and camp"

S: "That's not the same we don't stop you from playing the game stop tunneling or you're bad at the game and playing scummy. Gen speeds aren't a problem your toxic playstyle is."

K: "But tunneling is doing the objective optimally same as focusing gens"

S: "If you were good you wouldn't need to tunnel or camp. Just apply pressure and git gud."

K: "Entitled survivor main detected. Its always the killers fault."

S: "Killer has never been easier, stop complaining."

Its exhausting.

A) It's part of the game, but it's not gameplay. It's the functional equivalent of waiting for energy in a mobile game.

Genrushing against a camper IS gameplay, just really boring. But being on the hook against a camper isn't gameplay.

B) The old system had survivors stay near the hook. But that was back when windows didn't lock, when there was no bloodlust, when survivors could always fast vault. If you restrict yourself to one map tile now, you -will- go down, no matter what. So if you try to abuse this by looping under hook now, you just trade hooks, -at best-.

A) Because there IS no gameplay. You have no choices. You either do nothing and get removed from the game, or you remove yourself from the game earlier.

Even on a normal hook, you have more gameplay, because you can take stock of your surroundings, track the killer so you know where to go or if you have time to get healed. A facecamper makes that pointless, since you can't get rescued. Thus: no gameplay.

Even sitting on gens has gameplay, since you constantly have to make decisions. Should I move to a different side? Which way is the killer coming from? Should I help a hooked/injured teammate? Is this a safe gen?

A lot of those do fall away if the killer camps, but it's still got more agency than getting facecamped.

B) The problem is that that tactic benefits the killer compared to normal play. Because the alternative is that the killer has to find the survivors to then play out the exact same scene, but this time they're not able to block a rescue at the same time.

If a killer is looped around the hook long enough for this tactic to be a problem, then the killer just isn't good enough and would suffer the same consequences no matter where he gets looped.

A) You have things you can do though: attempt to escape, look around, and hit/miss the struggle skill checks. You just don't have the choices you want. Getting help is also part of the "team based game" aspect.

Its a team based pvp game, your choices are not the only ones that matter and sometimes you're not going to be in control. If you only want your choices to matter and to be in control all the time, play a single player or potentially a 1v1 game.

On a side note, choice does not always equal gameplay. If I give you a game that's just a bunch of QTE, you don't have a choice, but that's still gameplay. Any game with a chase scene, you don't have a choice but to run, but that's still gameplay. Its just low interaction gameplay.

If your problem is low interaction then the hook mechanic as a whole needs to change. But denying its part of the gameplay is just not correct.

B) Something benefitting the killer is not a problem just because you don't like it. Defending hooks is also a part of "normal play", camping isn't ideal but I wouldn't say its not normal, especially with how common it is.

That second part honestly doesn't matter, whether the killer is bad at the game is irrelevant. The old problems are still there whether the killer is bad or not since in either case the survivors have extended the hook time to get gen time, which is one of the main problems.

If the survivors can loop near to hook for extra gen time they will abuse it. It doesn't matter if its more or less because the killer is better or worse, the problem is still there.

If the killer is bad in this scenario now the person is getting camped even longer than today because the killer is getting looped around them longer so their timer is paused and the other survivors are on gens, the same problem we had before. So the killer can still camp and the survivor gets camped for longer because it benefits the survivor team more.

Then the second person also gets camped and we're back in the same situation we are now except the first person sat on hook even longer.

If a killer is bad in todays game, does that stop them from camping? No. Do you think its not a problem with a bad killer because "oh its ok, the down took longer because he was bad"? I would assume the answer to that is also no.

If the concern is a camping killer means the survivor is on hook and they don't like it, you have now created a situation where that survivor is on hook for even longer and can't even reque for longer.