General Discussions
General Discussions
Does SBMM only take in to account kills and escapes ?
From the developer update it seems they are only measuring escapes as a win. Does this mean crouching in the corner all game and getting hatch is a win but doing 5 gens and getting 6 unhooks with super long chases but dying is a loss ? I think if we're going to have SBMM we need to know what a win is
Comments
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I wish and hope the sbmm goes in-depth so camping for hatch doesnt affect it
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Nope: The first version of SBMM only used kills and escapes to calculate your rating, but it did not work out so it was quickly scrapped. The current system takes a number of different factors into account when deciding when your rating should go up or down (and by extension, by how much).
Basically, the way it's calculated is complex, and the goal is to have you "win" in about half your matches.
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1) What counts as a 'win?'
2) Will we ever know what factors are taken into account?
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no they have stated some time ago that they will not do that just so players wond abuse the system
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They said a "win" is escape or kill so an average game should have two of each
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During the last test a vast majority of my survivor games had the first guy downed either dc right away or suicide on the hook, putting the survivors in a massive uphill battle. How will this affect each players rating? It sucks being dragged down by someone rage quitting.
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People will dig up what factors are taken into account sooner or later
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How come I can verse a squad on Badham and I lose, I get lower MMR, but as the same killer, perks, squad on coal tower I can win and go up MMR?
If the system isn't taking into account absolutely god awful map design it's wrong from the get go. Same with weak killer powers like clown and trickster. If a trickster can get 4 hooks against a decent team on badham that shouldn't decrease his mmr because 4 hooks against a good squad on trashham is a good result.
Or split the queues? casual queue and competitive queue.
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Oh I agree, a killer win for me will always be getting all 4 but I am hoping the system keeps me out of the games where that is impossible
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How do I know what is considered a “win” if not by how many kills I get as a killer, or if I escape as survivor?
Do I get a “Victory” notification in the post game screen?
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No MMR can count what you said, and a ranked game mode for me it's a bad idea, honestly
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I'm just going to play how I normally do and have fun.
Shocking turn of events, apparently.
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How are people going to 'abuse the system' if it requires skill to do so?
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skilled players would know what to do to keep thet mmr low for weaker killers
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Could we know what all the factors are because nobody really knows what a win is
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It looks like the system tries to aim for 2k. So possibly you will get 4k, but most likely it also means that you will get as many 0k games as well.
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If you will enjoy the matches you get, then probably it doesn't even matter.
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Why do people care what counts as a win? Just play the game and have fun. It's not that complex.
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Well, yeah, it's not like they can suicide on first hook as survivor or stand in the corner of the basement as killer to do so, after all.
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Wow now, let's not get crazy.
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So... what type of things does the system account for?
You guys... this is getting irritating with the lack of detail and explanation in these systems. We can't give the best feedback if we don't know how something works.
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I haven't seen your name pop up in a while! Glad you are still a part of team!
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Peanits actually answered your question without directly answering it.
In the past a win was to escape the trial, now they changed that. So it has to be game progress, just like a pip.
Interesting would be if they also take specific chase scenarios into account. For example, it is much more difficult to hold a killer when a different survivor has already used all the resourced. I doubt they have something like that, but it would be in my opinion a needed feature on how to rate actual skill.
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They will not give specifics because they do not want people manipulating their mmr.
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Does that mean you guys actually defined a win? Cause we kinda have been waiting for that for 4 years
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Maybe there is no win condition. Only some meter which tells if you played good or ######### based on the match expectations (ratings of the others). Probably similar to emblems, but probably calculated and weighted differently. Maybe they say it is complex, because it is done using machine learning and it is not 100% clear what inputs exactly affect the end result. Your rating is adjusted based on it. Then the system uses these ratings to create matches which with high probability result in 2k-2e. The system uses some machine learning which tells what ratings result in most likely 2k-2e.
TLDR: there is no exact win condition, but it is still possible to create balanced matches.
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A killer win for me its a 3k, absolute victory 4k 2k tie 1k or 0 a lose.I
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I don't really understand that point.
Lets assume I wanna derank on purpose, I'll just throw super hard. I don't need to know what it measures, I just won't do much of anything so no matter what it measures I'll go down.
Not knowing won't really help the issue and just crates a lot of unknowns for no benefit. We don't even see what our own MMR is, at the very least that should be visible.
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Not knowing and therefore getting a more accurate matchmaking as a result is way better than knowing and manipulating results to completely bugger up the experience for the player doing it and all those around.
The current system is a prime example of how players abuse the system to gain unfair advantages. Granted, the system had faults of its own, but player manipulation no doubt caused problems too.
Because of this, I hope we never know how they do it, because - to loosely quote a rather famous movie line - "life finds a way".
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If people really wanted to smurf they'd just insta-lose a few rounds then destroy the next few killers. I don't think we have to see the exact details, but something more than "it's different now" would be nice.
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Folks, stop making up this “manipulating the system” as an excuse for BHVR… if someone wants to derank they will purposefully throw. Don’t defend BHVR’s decision to hide their MMR criteria - the ONLY reason they really don’t want to share it is because they don’t want it to be open to scrutiny.
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yeah i agree with you i only said thier explenation, i never said its a good one tho
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While i do think they should talk about some of the factors. Here is a hypothetical scenario.
Imagine if the system took into account, how many chases you got in. Well, you could just chase a survivor, look away, drop chase, chase the survivor, rinse and repeat, until you end up in 100 chases. If this was weighted enough, you could in theory "win" a game, by just doing this over and over again.
So because of that, they don't want to say. I do think they should at least give a rough idea though, and i'd hope that such a system would have diminishing returns on each piece so that you had to perform well overall rather than in just one category.
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As someone who works in machine learning, this could very well be the case. You often don't always know exactly why stuff happens its the nature of the space. However, if this were the case, they could simply tell us that they are using machine learning to determine how well someone played during a match. This would be enough i think for people to be ok with not knowing exactly why.
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i see your point but i also can somehow understed the decidion of the devs
lets saythey tld us small detals about how it is scored, some people would use that info like " oh ok this and that give me +points so now i need to to do those stuff less just to have easer matches or potentialy bully the new killers", lets face it we have many petty people in this game who loves to bully ether side
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It's ok guys, we can blindly trust the devs that coded and implemented the ####### chat filter...
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But I'm saying you can bugger it up anyway just by throwing a few (or more) games. Knowing or not knowing doesn't effect those that want to mess it up, it only stops others from knowing if its working well and where they stand skill wise.
Like if I enter a match as killer and never hit anyone or break any pallets or anything, I'm going down in rank. What is there to stop me?
Same with survivor.
I can just purposely do really bad on everything and I will rank down.
We just can't double check the system or even know how well we're doing, we just have to trust the devs on "it just works" and the devs don't exactly have the best track record.
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I hear what you're saying. A counter argument is that it won't mess up anyone's game nearly as badly as the old system did. This is because the quality of matches a player gets is based much more around their own individual skill, than being thrown further down a ranking system into areas where they're forced to play with people of lesser skill, because some people have purposefully deranked or put into poorly-matched trials that cocks up other's ranking. If it's based on individual skill, rather than a pip system reliant on questionable measurements, someone trying to bugger the system up for others will mostly impact their games than others.
The whole aim of someone knowing a system works is mainly to see how it works, and then to see how it can be bent to gain an advantage. No point in someone seeing how it works, seeing that it does work, but then not liking what they see, so they look for ways to change it. I'm certainly not saying everyone would, but there undoubtably would be some.
As for what's stopping you from messing up your rankings? Nothing, but if someone wants to do that, what's the point in showing how it works anyway? It could be argued someone who wants to do that doesn't deserve to know.
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Does it take into account if someone's camping, tunneling and/or slugging, respectively farming teammates off hooks, sandbagging etc... and if yes, will these people have to play together?
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I doubt it is much of a concern for this community in particular, but you could manipulate it the other way too. People already do that with the pip system. Albeit, it doesn't effect matchmaking, so you know, I doubt that practice will live on.
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Like many others said you don't need to know how mmr works to be able to go up or down on purpose.
I think the reason it's not shared is because they want to make it sound more complicated than it is. I wouldnt be surprised if its still based on the old pip system
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Will we ever be able to see what our mmr/sbmm score is, like in other games with similar systems?
Doesn't have to be shown for everyone but just for the person itself.
Cause i love to know what my score is and im pretty sure most of us here would also want to know what their scores are
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It also means prépare for mean players and sweat lords that will rush their objectives (gen rush/mass slug/tunnel) more to have quick escapes/kills to up the ranks quickly
Why? Cause you dontnknow what is considered à win or à loss
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Can I see my MMR? If not, why not?
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No and you don't need to.
What's good with the new matchmaking is that no one will know at which rank he/she plays on, avoiding low skill mechanics. :D
Also not knowing if you won or not is a good thing i guess. Ppl won't be able to use the calculation system at their advantage.
As the "Grade" won't be linked to your SBMM level, there won't be any "skill indication" that other players can see and there won't be any reason to play badly. Being top Grade won't mean anything, it will just reward you with bloodpoints and well, it will just be grinding.
I'm sure devs have implemented a penalty when a killer is camping & tunneling. Killers won't know it but won't go up in SBMM playing like this :).
Same for survivors doing nothing or unhooking unsafely.
I really hope that noobs that have polluted the red rank matchmaking will stay at the bottom of the SBMM system. CBA playing against/with those players anymore. I will maybe enjoy DbD again :).
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We don't even know if a "win" or "loss" has a definition in todays rankings, so there's no difference.
If someone is against a "sweat lord", it could be fair to say they themselves have played either the same, or the killer equivalent of it.
Finally, a skill-based system should look at the overall performance of points accrued in different categories. Someone who just charges from gen to gen, and avoids contact with the killer, yet escapes, will not be as high as those who participate in all areas of the game. Same goes for a slugger. Their original attempt of a basic "escape/ sacrifice" would be floored, since it's way too simplistic.
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I'm not against SBMM just to be clear, but what makes this system less abusable than the current? You'll still just throw to lower yourself the same way you do now and end up against opponents you shouldn't be facing who you then bully. SBM is basically pip system but supposedly better, but as you said yourself their first attempt had questionable measurements, how do we know this won't have the same issue of questionable measurements?
Everything you said is true in the pip system as well, it was supposed to be a matchmaking system and it track individuals and we can see how poorly it was implemented/designed. Imagine trying to point out what's wrong with current matchmaking if we had no info on what was going in, didn't even know if we went up or down, and couldn't see anyone's ranks, because that's essentially what's happening.
How is the community supposed to give feedback on a system when we have no idea how it works?
Essentially it just boils down to "hmm, I feel like this isn't working, but I have nothing to go off of to say if that's warranted or not." The devs can just hide behind vagueness and say "no its fine" and you have nothing to really show for it not being fine because you can't check anything. Maybe somethings wrong, maybe you're just being biased, how would you know?
It'll probably be better than what we have now but thats not a very high bar to set. That could just be because there's a bigger range of values than the current systems 20 ranks.
I don't trust BHVR to implement an accurate or fair matchmaking system, given their track record I believe that's a fair concern. I want a good SBMM system, not emblems Ver. 2 and we have no way to know whether that's true or not.
For all we know the system could be basically just kills and escapes with maybe 1 or 2 extra variables. After all, in their dev update they only mentioned kills and escapes being within an acceptable range, so it'd stand to reason that's their main factor. As most players can probably tell you, just kills and escapes are not reliably an accurate measure of "skill".
But we have no way of knowing, and thats what makes it frustrating.
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so if you either die ( EARLY ON ) or dont do ENOUGH of whatever its asking from players, more than 50 percent of the time, it will downrank you in SBMM.
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So instead we throw for 10-20 games to lower it and as soon as we feel the players are competent again, start throwing again.
Seeing the number or not wont stop people from abusing it, it just stop those who don't want to from knowing how they're doing.
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