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Nemesis Rework Ideas
I'm only going to post this once, just because I've never actually made a discussion on it, but if you've looked through some Nemesis threads, you'll probably see me in them quite often. I'm personally not the biggest fan of Nemesis as he is, as I feel he doesn't represent him as he was in RE3: Remake, where he was pulled from. I've given these ideas in other threads but decided to lay them here in one convenient location.
In order for Nemesis to feel like the Nemesis we have in the games, I feel he needs at least 2 of these things.
- An add-on that turns the Zombies into NE-a Parasite Zombies, gives them a range of 5 meters, with a 3-4 second attack cooldown (so the Survivor doesn't get absolutely mauled with their current 1 second cooldown).
Pretty simple, the NE-a Parasites are a real interesting enemy you face in RE3: Remake, and since Nemesis has the NE-a Parasite himself, I feel that replacing both, or even just one of the zombies with a NE-a Parasite, would be interesting and would allow players to create more interesting zombie-focused builds. It'd also give the Survivors a new threat to face that'd be interesting to play with and against, as you can't just easily bait out the zombies. They'd still be blinded of course, but it'd be riskier. As a penalty, if both zombies are NE-a's, then the respawn time doubles. If Nemesis destroys them, they go from 15 -> 30, and if a Survivor pallets them, from 30(?) -> 60(?). This could replace the NE-a Parasite Add-on we have, since being Oblivious for 60 seconds after being infected isn't... too helpful, especially if YOU caused the infection, especially if they run out of crates.
- A running ability. Nemesis roars map-wide, then he runs at say... 150% speed? maybe 160% so he just outruns Exhaustion Perks? He has full mobility, can turn just as normal, but can immediately break pallets/walls (add-on that allows you to just rush straight through them if you've been running for 3 seconds), and you can just absolutely sucker punch a Survivor to end your sprint, dealing one health state of damage, but putting him in a... 3-4 second cooldown to recover from his sprint.
This would basically be an easier to steer Hillbilly or Oni charge, except you're limited to one health state, and can be used more for map traversal, if say Tinkerer pops (imagine that happening in-game, I'd probably [BAD WORD] myself). This could easily count as a Special Attack, akin to Legion's Feral Frenzy, so STBFL and the Iridescent Umbrella Badge wouldn't work with it, disallowing you from getting a quick and easy down. Similar to The Legion, there could be an add-on, or 2 add-ons, that reduce the cooldown you suffer by in total 1 second, going from 4 -> 3 seconds (only if the cooldown is 4 seconds).
- A special ability, akin to Trickster, although with a twist. For every 2 generators completed, an Umbrella Crate drops, which contains a Rocket Launcher (Doing this method means that Nemesis has, at max, 2 insta-downs excluding add-ons). If Nemesis goes to the crate (it'll probably be highlighted) and picks up the rocket launcher, *his tentacle (if he has it) is replaced with his Rocket Launcher, and he can't pick Survivors up. You hold M2 to aim the Rocket Launcher, it fires one shot, and immediately downs anyone within... a 3-4 meter radius, damages anyone for one health state within a 6-8 meter radius. It'd have a laser showing where the player's aiming, just like in RE3 Remake, and when it's used, he'd toss the Rocket Launcher to the side, similar to how he does in RE: Resistance (I can't find a clip of just the RPG being used).
I know that a few people have stated that having yet another one-shot down would be annoying, but that's why I came up with the idea that Nemesis has to GO GET the crates, he's just not given them, and they'd only be given if the Survivors are popping gens. That means, if a Nemesis downs everyone before 2 gens pop, the Rocket Launcher never gets used. There could be an add-on that drops an extra crate when the last generator pops (Very Rare, not sure what it'd replace, but it could replace the S.T.A.R.S. Badge as an Ultra-Rare). I also figured that the Rocket Launcher would keep the laser it has in the games, since it's technically able to insta-down everyone at once, which CAN be very strong and it'd prevent cross-map snipes.
Any of these (I'd love for all 3 of them) can be added and still keep the whip, just make the running and the Rocket Launcher be toggled by CTRL. I feel that this'd make him feel more like Nemesis, it'd make him pretty strong while also keeping him from overpowered, and would make everyone happy, as Survivors would have fun being chased by an absolute unit of a Tyrant (I'd LOVE to just see a Nemesis running at me with face-pummeling intent)
Comments
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Honestly, anything that makes him more reminiscent to his RE3 self because damn his kit is unoriginal as hell. But I love these ideas, probably one of my favorite takes of a Nemesis rework.
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They put so much love into his animations and sound design and his power is just "m1 but 5-6 meters further" and it feels very lackluster. While i really do love him to the point of literally maining him, i can't deny being a big RE fan is about the only reason. He is incredibly generic and doesn't offer anything more interesting than any of the other m1 killers do. Nea and Dave are cool though, my only partners in crime in the cruel world that is playing nemmy.
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I just edited the post, when talking with a friend and remembering how he played in RE3: Remake (being able to run with the RL in hand), I decided that the Rocket Launcher would replace the tentacle whip, thus making you hold M2 to aim which would feel better than CTRL, as well as disallowing you from picking up Survivors while you hold it (since you'd be holding the RL). I'm glad you guys are enjoying my rework ideas! I might think of suggesting reworks to his add-ons, if I do then I'll add them in a separate tab on this thread.
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Yeah I feel like they straight-up disrespected Nemesis. He's basically a toned down Pyramid Head bUt WiTh ZoMbIeS!. I really wish they put more thought into his kit. IMO he's not a weak killer, he's just got a meh kit, but yeah I agree they did a damn great job on his animations and sounds.
Honestly I don't even mind that trade-off. The idea of running fast, punching survivors, and using a rocket launcher in Dead by Daylight as Nemesis from Resident Evil just like his game version would be dope as hell.
And yeah he really deserves an add-on pass, most of his add-ons are kind of... yeah... and yw!
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I am ashamed to admit that it took me several hours to realize that 'Nea and Dave' are your names for the zombies.
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Lmao happens to all of us, its kind of hard to tell when people are talking about the zombies since everybody gives them a unique name.
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Ive said this a million times to myself, friends, myself, and myself. If you took Nemesis's name out from his character, you would have no idea that he's Nemesis. His power is....nothing unique at all. In fact if BHVR came up with Plague, I would expect it to be more like what Nemesis is.
Literally nothing about Nemesis makes me think resident evil. The zombies are absolutely pathetic, his power is absolutely pathetic (he doesn't use his tentacle in R3make one time besides the infection after he COMPLETELY MUTATES INTO A GIANT TRUCK SIZED BEHEMOTH), and the entire infection mechanic makes NO sense at all. T-Virus is supposed to slowly turn you into a zombie. In game it just doesn't do anything besides allows zombies to damage you.
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If they didn't add things that made Nemesis into THE NEMESIS, it'd be cool for the T-Virus to slow you down the longer you're infected (repair/healing wise, every minute you're infected you get a 2% repair/healing penalty)
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He doesn't need any rewords other than either removing hindered after contamination or making it noticeable.
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That's your opinion. My opinion is having one of these added to his kit (the RL or the running) would make him viable at higher MMR's, as right now if I don't play scummy I get stomped hard, due to his tentacle being easy to avoid and zombies doing nothing productive 80% of the time.
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@Bluebird Use your tentacle ONLY when they are locked in animations, boom the whole philosophy.
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@Bluebird Also perks that make loud noise notifications like discordance and zombie detection range addons. They do react to the perks.
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They react to the perks... if they're not stuck on the map's geometry, which I've seen COUNTLESS times. I have to play babysitter to get use out of them half the time, because they get stuck on the slightest inconvenience.
Guess who else has an ability that you're supposed to use when they're locked in animations? That's right, Pyramid Head. And guess what else? He has so many interesting things in his kit, such as the Trail of Torments, the built-in Mori's, the Cages that outright deny Hook Perks, the Tormented Status, and his ability goes through walls.
What does Nemesis have? A worse version of Pyramid Head's Punishment of the Damned, a Contaminated Status that does hardly anything, and zombies that are useful in 1/20 of your games. Pyramid Head is very accurately represented, meanwhile Nemesis is mainly a copy-paste job, albeit with the introduction of A.I. 'partners'. The ideas I give do the same thing as Pyramid Head: makes him accurately represented from his source material. I took a lot of time to think about how everything could work and how to make it fun, but not OP.
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I do like the ideas here but honestly this reads more like a fan chapter than an actual potential rework. As cool as super zombies, a rocket launcher and a charge sound! it just isn’t feasible that they’d change him that drastically.
also the balance seems waaay off! A one shot rocket launcher seems nigh impossible (although I do like that you’ve quantified it’s potential existence) along with super zombies running around whilst having an easy to control charge that breaks pallets. That’s too much in my humble opinion.
Remember this is still DBD so we have to temper our expectations somewhat as the killer still has to somewhat fit the DBD mould of sorts, some killers fit easily (ghost face) others like nemesis do not and will unfortunately always be seemingly nerfed from their full game counterparts.
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I do agree that charging through and breaking every pallet in one easy to maneuver charge can be very strong, and when thinking about it thought about editing my post again, and removing it. That way, you still can only break one pallet (although the add-on could be changed to allow you to break one pallet, but still hit through it).
The NE-a Parasites, I did agree, was quite strong, and I thought about changing it to Nemesis, when playing the add-on, can infect one zombie with the NE-a Parasite akin to how he does in the game. That way, he, similar to the RL, has to go TO the zombie, infect it, then hope it doesn't get killed (because he'd had to go re-infect the zombie). It'd of course be limited to one NE-a Parasite at a time.
The Rocket Launcher was and still is my biggest 'issue' in regards to balancing, and even thought about changing the RL into his Flamethrower.
- The Flamethrower would be dropped in an Umbrella Crate when 3 gens are done, replacing his tentacle until it's out of fuel (30 seconds of usage (+15 | +10 add-ons)), and it'd light the path that Nemesis is aiming towards with fire. That way, if you're getting looped, light behind you on fire (or in front of you, as it wouldn't burn Nemesis), the Survivor either has to abandon the loop, or risk getting injured/downed. It'd probably have a burn time of 3 seconds before you're injured, 3 seconds before you're downed. I personally really didn't like this as much, as the Flamethrower would be a LOT harder to implement than the RL in my opinion, but thought I'd put it here.
Anyhow, back to the Rocket Launcher, I do agree that it can be VERY hard to balance and/or implement, and I do appreciate you noting that I tried to quantify it. It was, in my opinion, the best way I figured I could implement it without it being a huge complaint focus for the Survivors. It's also why I noted that the Shattered S.T.A.R.S. Badge (Ultra Rare) would allow you to get one more, as I feel it'd fit the Ultra Rare category, and make said add-on useful.
All in all, I did try to think about everything in the realm of DBD, which is why I made mention of Oni/Hillbilly during his charge, and picked the Rocket Launcher over the Flamethrower (think of Trickster with his shatter blades, the AoE damage code exists already), and even discussed with a few friends that play DBD on whether or not everything would fit in DBD. However, if you don't think it'd fit, that is completely your opinion, and I do appreciate you leaving your thoughts nonetheless!
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This is a fantastic idea! I honestly feel like they could easily make something like this work. We already have running plenty of times so that should be perfectly acceptable, a rocket launcher while maybe not fitting in the world of DBD can also fit as a gameplay mechanic when balanced correctly. And bringing in the Nemesis Alpha parasites would make sense if they wanted the Nemesis to connect a bit more with Nemesis from the remake and could work really well. Overall I don't think this would be that hard to implement. I mean they would just have to create a couple models for things like the rocket launcher, cases, and parasites but it wouldnt take that long. And the running can just be easily whipped up. He already has the animation and roar animation and sounds. Just replace his default mocing animtion with the one he has when walking slow, in the end game screen, or when he is holding someone and put the running animation in the ability. But yeah I do feel like something like this would fit and honestly be more of a fun killer for most people. Even those who don't care about the accuracy and just the fun I still think this type of power would succeed betterbetter in that area.
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One balancing bit I thought of, for the NE-a Parasites, limit it to 1 Zombie with the whole double respawn time, but Nemesis has to go infect them himself, he doesn't just start with one. This would also help in a way. Zombie just spawned and he's close to a gen? Infect. Now his lethality is greater, and those gens are more dangerous.
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Yeah that makes sense. It'd be perfect. Just walk up to the zombie and do an animation where he grabs their head and puts on the parasite like the game.
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I think these idea would be great to be implemented as addons.
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I have never seen an add-on add new abilities to killers, just change their already existing abilities.
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Keep believing.
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The laser would make it difficult but god hitting cross-map rocket launcher hits in DBD would be the funniest #########, BHVR pls
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He is fine, the only thing to buff is a slight increase to zombie speed and detection range and that's it. Yep. Then I am good.
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YOU may be good, but quite a few people in the COMMUNITY wouldn't. That's why I made this post.
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I stand corrected. However, when making my comment I wasn't taking into account event-exclusive add-ons. I was meaning add-ons made specifically for that character.
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Someone's just casually doing a generator when all the sudden they immediately get downed from a stray RPG. Would be absolutely amazing.
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But what I don't understand is if your not good, that means you lack perks, addons and or the basic understanding not to overly kill your zombies for the LV3 whip which the zombies give you a general knowledge of the map and location of survivor's. I do believe they could walk fast, detect further, also respawn quicker, but before all that you have to also take in the aspect of the addons and if your T3 with them to have the best chance for the higher quality addons. I personally don't like him because I believe he is HUGELY reliant on the whipping to be useful while I have had good and bad moments with the zombies more good because of properly killing them when there in a location with no gens and too far away from my desired guarding location he does need a very slight something but not by much now though I am open to being debating otherwise.
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I don't mean good in the sense of your ability to play him, I play him just fine and 4k consistently (or 3k + Mercy Hatch) if I try. I mean good with how he is, his kit.
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I think he needs an ability to run very fast for a short time to help him deliver gen pressure, cause in re3 remake he can run very fast when he puts his mind to it.
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