Facecamping needs to be dealt with
Holy ######### I've never seen so many back to back games where a killer facecamps a minute into a game. This is ridiculous and just proves the point: devs' lack of willingness to bother fixing this, rather than being lazy and letting it destroy games is out of hand now.
At higher MMR, it's pretty much all you see now. It's not fun, it's not fair, and it's making the game incredibly difficult to swallow. Either SBMM needs to be turned off, or this ######### needs dealing with.
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It turns out killers are tired of facing sweaty swfs at higher mmr. Whoda thunk.
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never have i seen two absolutely perfect examples of what the forums are like right next to each other, incredible
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Gee only 4 facecamping/camping threads on the front page of General Discussion.
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lol, I mean if I've had 18/20 games where this has happened a minute into the game, I'm not really the 'perfect' example of what normally happens. Most people complain after one case. I'm complaining after it's happened constantly for me and a lot of other people.
@Yankus It's almost as if that's not an excuse given that this is almost always without the presence of SWFs.
@Jasix gee it's almost as if it's a legitimate problem that has suddenly risen for most players.
@blankfaced whataboutism isn't relevant and most maps these things don't even exist anymore lol
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Why should a killer be prevented from securing a kill? Should survivors have a limit on how many seconds they can work on a gen without leaving it?
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God I have an awesome idea how to fix this. Just bear with me.
What if timer stops when the killer is in the same match as hooked survivor?
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Why should a survivor be prevented from playing a game and then be forced to stay in said game that they're not even allowed to take part in lest they get the blame for the results of the game?
I say the same for killers in that question too, tbf.
Securing a kill toward the end is not the issue; doing this at the beginning, with no way of countering it, is.
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I think I remember the devs saying they were going to make camping less enticing
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They also said that keys were getting nerfed soon as they were in the middle of implementing it months ago and yet last week we found out they're still in the phase of spitballing ideas, so I have no faith.
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Ooohhh no you can't mention that it gets abused by survivors because if you say the hook stops while the killer is near the hook and nit in a chase then survivors can come close enough to the hook that the killer would have to chase them but not so close that he gets an immediate hit. And if the timer stops then he would be forced to chase that survivor.
And this is considered by killer mains on this forum to be abusive and unfair
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One of the interesting things I see in threads like this is how immediately the response is to say "sweaty SWFs" like I've been accused of playing with friends when SoloQ just because I get competent teammates that actually do things while I'm on a chase... but then I don't like to sweat in matches and just sigh when I end up being camped for no reason.
Not that long ago, I was tunnelled by a Killer right off the start of the match and I asked why and he said I quote "You should run DS, UB, BT and DH if you don't want to be tunnelled, baby Survivor" which I find amusing because I don't have the need to sweat matches.
My argument will always be the same... I don't care if I survive the match, I just want to actually get to play.
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They tried it before ages ago, and survivors abused the mechanic so badly it was removed nearly instantly. Its just something we have to live with, anti-camping measures will always inevitably be abused in a way that massively discourages playing killer. Its just a sad part of the game we have to live with, camping exists and theres little that can be done about it without it becoming a balance issue.
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That one idea was abused and then not reiterated on is very telling since it means they do recognise its an issue but can't be bothered to deal with it over other issues. Fact is, the implementation they had didn't then get obvious number changes for range/even changes to what counts as 'chase' in order to deal with the abuse, so nothing changed. At least at that point it wasn't so common.
Now we need more than bandaid perks when some like BT can't exactly do something about Bubba and another idea would be to start completely changing the functionality of staple camping perks such as Monstrous Shrine (why does this not have a use other than to counter camaraderie if you want to camp lmao) and make Insidious be chase specific rather than a blatant camping perk lol
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Exaclty man. I don't care about 1-2 gen left camping; I care about camping when maybe 1-2 gens are done and the games been going a few minutes only. This isn't a competitive game and most people don't play in that awful way.
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I think the biggest problem is that the game doesn't say something like "ultra cheap and hollow pseudo-victory because all your opponents suicided rather than play with you."
But I think the Devs prefer "brutal killer", because they don't want to be honest with why people get supposed 4k's lest they hurt the fragile ego of the average killer.
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Most killer's percieve 4 v 1 as a imbalance. Removing even a potato from the game is helpful. Dead potatoes can't do gens.
There is little point chasing god looper's through jungle gyms when you can take out easy prey that can hold m1 and press space every 15 secs.
It puts pressure back on survs. Im not a fan of face camping, i don't do it but i understand why people do it. However the solution is in the game. Do your gens and leave. If you reward that facecamping Bubba he will continue to use it.
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I get your point but I'm not really talking about tunneling; I get tunneling!
Facecamping is just another beast and you say you understand why but most people do it literally because they know nothing can be done against it especially if they play the right killers and that it ruins any chance of fun for the other side.
I actually do use the solution of doing gens and totems to leave, but it will always end with a free 2k for the killer, because gens can't fly fast enough to beat it especially when you need to stop the noed snowball. Have had to do this so much recently and it's incredibly unfun, only to have to do it in concurrent games, repeatedly. SBMM is awful and the cause of this trash.
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Lot's of variables,Yes certain killers make it very difficult to unhook. But you can rescue if you have coordination, going in one at a time is just silly, going in as a group of 3 with borrowed time and a flashlight etc can help you even the odds.
If they can incentivise killers leaving, like adding a baseline pop after hooking, you do 10% damage to a generator more than "x" meters away from the hook.
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Against some killers you defnitely can do that, yeah, but others you really can't unless they really mess up, such as Bubba and my lord have I seen a lot of insidious bubbas recently!
Honestly decent idea. I also think the point reduction for camping needs to be massively increased, but more incentive at basekit like that would certainly be a fair but minor gamechanger.
Another thing that just gets forgotten, something that can be implemented easily in a hotfix: give a survivor being facecamped chaser, lightbringer and benevolent points for opting to stay in the game when being facecamped. It's not hard to tell it's happening and implement such a system, and it would honestly decrease the frustration level to some degree given that it's one of the major problems plenty of people have with it.
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No, that's boring. Survivors should be able to jump off of first hook, instantly heal themselves, force the killer to teleport to the far side of the map and cleanse a totem in order to remove a hook state.
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While we're at it, survivors should spawn into the game on their last hook, in the basement.
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There is a way to counter it, it's called doing gens and forcing the killer to lose. If he wants to sacrifice the win just to camp one survivor. Oh well. Thats his choice
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Point missed completely. And that isn't countering it. They have noed? Free 2k with a potential skilless snowball depending on the map.
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But this is completely unrealistic for Solo survivors who cannot communicate with each other. If the hooked survivor doesn't have Kindred, no one is aware that the Killer is facecamping unless they literally go for the unhook.
Also, no one knows what perks the others are running (unless they have had the opportunity to notice).
Facecamping, Hook camping by stealth Killers etc truly exploits the weakness of Solo queue.
Interesting suggestions though. Anything is better than what's going on now.
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Why didnt you do bones?
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: removing player agency is bad game design. The best the devs can do is incentivize killers to leave hook or deincentivize staying near hook, both of which they already do. There is no such thing as a hard solution to face camping.
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I mean I've explained this above. I've been playing against it and the instant I see it (I expect it anyway at this point) I look for bones on the way to gens. (Which I also already did before coming across facecamping every game) Some maps (again, I said depending on map) you literally can't find them all and if you're solo you have no way of knowing they're done by other players while not having enough time to do them and the gens if someone is being facecamped. This means no matter what, two players will die. The fact you don't know if all totems are gone despite trying to find and do them all means it's probably more.
Funny thing is, I'm surviving the majority of my games. I'm not just pointing out the problem because I want to survive. Hell, earlier I was praising a killer who destroyed my team because they didn't facecamp and were actually pretty good at killer. Their response was an acknowledgement this was a problem and the line 'SBMM sucks' lol
But I guess good job trying to mock me. :)
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I've gone against a lot more tunneling and facecamping since MMR. I don't know if it's because I'm playing with different people or because people are playing differently.
In most of the games where this happens, the killer tunnels and camps one person and then plays fairly normally once that person's gone (which is also new for me -- in my previous camping games, the killer usually continued to camp people for the whole match). But, it seems like they're trying to eliminate one person to make it a 3v1.
As I was watching that happen a few times today, I tried to think of a solution and I couldn't. Any measure I could think of to stop tunneling and camping would be vulnerable to abuse -- even rewarding the first person who dies is vulnerable to abuse, because people sacrifice themselves on first hook. Then I thought "Maybe the game should just be 3v1," but then I thought, "No, 2 is going to be easier than 3, so they'll tunnel someone at 3, too."
The only thing I can think of is if survivors had some way to keep participating in the match after they were dead -- in which case getting killed right away wouldn't matter as much. But that would totally change the game.
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Funny you should say that when that's exactly the problem that comes with this exact situation: there is no agency for those involved, other than the killer.
At current, there actually isn't any incentive given to leave, outside of a bandaid perk (which shouldn't be necessary to fix bad game design) in BBQ or any mechanic that actually disincentivises leaving. There is a BP loss that is almost no change to what they get anyway as it is, and I've already agreed to adding things in like baseline weaker pop if you hook and leave etc.
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It WAS iterated on but every iteration got abused to the point that they gave up.
Simply put if there is a way for survivors to gain an advantage over the killer by using a feature they will find a way to do it and abuse it until they lose it.
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Can't say I've witnessed them play normally after the first facecamp, honestly. If they tunneled someone instead, I do find that happens, but again while I find tunneling annoying I'm more concerned about the inability to play the game entirely by having another player's camera stare straight into your avatar.
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There was one version of it only; that is not iterating on it. Not that it matters - I'm not even asking for that system. I'm asking for a genuine fix to very badly broken game design.
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They did iterate on it in PTBs with changes to radius it counts, Making it deactivate in chases and instead of stopping the sacrifice it simply slowed by X amount.
No matter what they did survivors managed to abuse it.
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Its funny how they complained about camping and the devs try to do something and of course it gets abused so at has to come out
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Yeah I've seen more camping at high level but its more of proxy camping. Meaning the killer leaves but doesn't go away too far. Now this strat can be good when survivors go for the immediate save or if the hooked survivor is close to the second stage. I don't blame the killers. Its tough when the survivors are all strong loopers and getting pressure this way can be beneficial imo. Camping can never be re designed it can be punished but not enough to force the killer not to camp. That would be a bad game design.
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Nope, facecamping is a valid strategy even though it sucks and is unfun for the survivor being facecamped.
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What suppose to do a non meta killer when 2 o 3 gens gone ?
First chase with a bad survivor who drops 2 o 3 pallets and 2 o 3 gens pop. Bring back the old ruin, and sh*tty survivors cant repair anymore.
Sadly is the only way.
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I honestly wish BHVR would test making hooks behave like PH's Cages (teleport if killer stays X time too close) on a PTB. But I'd bet this forum and Reddit would go on Crusader mode so I doubt it would happen. Just look how people on the comments defend something that makes the game more unfun.
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They should add a system that slows the hook timer if the killer face camps.
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Your criticism if valid, but in a way it just shows how widespread the problem is getting.
I'll just do the same thing I do every time I see one of these posts: Mention my idea of giving camped survivors a bit of extra BP to make the situation more tolerable (call it "suffering" points) - a higher score multiplier if it happens early in the match and a low multiplier if it happens late in the match. That way survivors at least don't have to have their match totally wasted, killers can still employ their preferred play style without penalty, and everyone has the chance to earn a fair number of BP for their time investment. Win/win.
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Except there is agency involved in face camping. First the decision of whether or not to go for an unhook at all. Deciding to let the camping take place and punish the killer by doing gens is player agency. If you go for the unhook, players have the decision on whether to have one person with BT go, or have everyone swarm the hook and try to overwhelm the killer. The person on hook has the option to either hook suicide to get on to the next match, or stay there and buy their teammates some time. That decision may be understaded and not particularly fun, but it's still player agency. That decision has an impact on the match.
And there are more incentives than BBQ to leave hook. Devour Hope is a scarily powerful perk and it requires you to not camp hook. Make Your Choice rewards the player for not camping by giving them an instant down. Dead Man's Switch allows you to shut down gens, which you will likely need you to pressure those gens by leaving hook. Hell even with ruin you need to apply pressure to gens for it to work, you cant do that when facecamping. Pop Goes The Weasel will likely require you to leave hook to gain its effects. Thrilling Tremors can offer intel similar to BBQ while also blocking gens. Blood Echo does nothing unless you hunt people down after getting it to activate. No Way Out doesnt help until way later in the match, but it will not reach it's full potential if you camp. Some perks have more direct rewards than others for not camping, but there are a lot of potential rewards for leaving hook.
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Some killers don't care enough about points... they care about Killing/Escaping
Killers will run whatever perks that fit what they want to do... same as Survivors
Comradery (or however you spell it) was the end result of that test of stopping the timer from going down while the killer was within TR of the hooked survivor
They also made MYC and Devour Hope being a certain distance away from the hooked survivor (but that doesn't help that much)
They made BT work no matter what (But again that don't help out that much)
They made DS (but after the changes... it's only there to delay tunneling)
But again it's up to the player... no one forcing Facecamping to go away
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There is only 1 killer in the game that you can do much about. Facecamping wise. Leatherface. Every other killer you can get the rescue I'd you try hard enough.
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Welcome to SBMM.
If the devs want me to play with high MMR/comp survivors, you need to expect me to play like a high MMR/comp killer. Go watch a tournament sometime. It's basically all tunneling, camping and NOED. Because this game is horribly balanced in favor of survivors so killers have no choice to play like this if they want to get a kill or 2.
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It's only balanced in favour of survivors when they're a SWF and all good. I keep getting this when I get brand new players as teammates, lol. Meanwhile I get legit sweaty SWFs to deal with when I play killer, as a result of SBMM but I'm not a piece of ######### so I don't force a disgusting way of playing on them.
I know well how comp players play, and it's awful for both sides; 9these people genuinely make any game they're in horrendous even if they're losing badly) no skill for either side is required, just instadrop pallets and rely on crutch perks for survivor and as killer abuse NoED and facecamping while being either Spirit or Nurse. Fun.
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Have you considered that the increase in "face" camping killers is based on the current gen speed and the killers struggle with it?
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I don't disagree. But the point is that it is a multi-faceted problem. They should fix low level/low skill/solo queue survivor gameplay to make the game better for them by closing the gap between them and SWF. They also need to drastically do something to increase killer lethality against high level survivors.
Personally what i think the easiest set of changes would be:
- Make kindred base kit
- Give survivors a temporary debuff to gen repair speeds of 50% for 90 seconds after getting unhooked, this effect lessens as survivors start being killed off.
- Increase the time it takes to die on hook by 30 seconds per phase.
- Create a new status effect for survivors called "Ethereal" or whatever.
- Add to survivor basekit: When a survivor is unhooked they are granted the "Ethereal" status effect. This effect phases them to another dimension (whatever lore thing you want) that makes it so they are unable to be seen or heard by the killer. They are able to see the auras of other survivors. During this time they are unable to repair generators, this effect lasts until they start healing themselves at self-care speed, or another survivor starts healing them. The 90 second repair debuff starts when Ethereal ends. Then you would rework borrowed time to do something else.
- Fix busted loops.
- Fix busted items/addons from survivors (BNP, borrowed time in a bottle, etc.)
- Make basekit kicking a gen do a mini "Pop" for 5% of progress, and when the survivor gets on the gen, in order to start repairing it they need to do an overcharge style skill check, then rework overcharge to do something else.
- Massively buff every gen regression/slowdown perk to be roughly the same power of a ruin that lasts the entire game, but then make it so they can't stack with each other (think like the killer version of exhaustion perks).
Some of these changes seem drastic and other things could be done instead, but basically the gist is to:
- Discourage killers from camping by encouraging them to go after other survivors, by ENCOURAGING them to go after other survivors. If you knew that survivors were useless on gens for a bit, then you are encouraged to go after someone else. Having a little longer to die on hook also discourages camping. Kindred being basekit also does this.
- Killers are discouraged from tunneling. First because survivors basically become immune for a short time after being unhooked. So being recently hooked basically puts you on "time out" until you get to a safe place and heal themselves, then they are relegated to a more support role for a short time and encouraged to look for totems, open chests, or heal survivors since they will be slower on gens.
- Punish survivors who "gen-tap"
- Encourage killers to actually kick generators without needing perks to make it useful.
- Discourage stacking massive amounts of slowdown perks, while also making it so you aren't required to do so. I'd rather just have to pick 1 perk from a category of perks (like exhaustion) then be forced to run 4 slowdown perks.
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Fun fact there is a way to deal with it...do gens.
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There is a perk for that so yes, just like how there are perks for everything since perks are just a bandaid fix.
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Getting a good killer these days is like winning the lottery......Good Luck (Taken Voice).
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