No second chance perk should come without a cost. Playing poorly should not be rewarded.
Dead Hard should NOT be a magical button that makes your mistake as Survivor disappear multiple times in a match. It either needs it's exhaustion timer increased by 20-30 seconds or the Survivor should be hindered after using it. You just leapt forward while being maimed, it makes no sense that they can just keep running as if nothing happened.
Unbreakable shouldn't just get you up all the time for free, make Survivors required to unhook a fellow teammate or something to be able to use it.
Iron Will shouldn't even exist, this perk negates an ENTIRE mechanic at no cost or interaction whatsoever from Survivor, and despite that this perk which is top tier got a niche perk (Stridor) used by ONE Killer (Spirit) nerfed for no reason. The lowest Survivor volume should be is around 25%... maybe.
Decisive is balanced, this Devs did a good job reworking this perk and now it feels genuinely fair.
Borrowed Time should not work until a certain amount of time has passed, bare minimum 20 to 30 seconds. Bum rushing unhooking a teammate just for them to be totally invincible is just silly, it takes away any interaction from the Killer and rewards playing poorly as Survivor.
NOED shouldn't exist, and if it must exist then take away the speed boost it gives. Instadowning Survivors is more than enough, either take away the speed boost or take away Survivor being exposed and buff the perk to give 10% speed instead. It should not be both.
Second Chance perks coming with NO penalty should NEVER be a thing, second chances should be EARNED, NOT given for free, especially not to the side that has access to 16 perks, 16 second chances.
Comments
-
Dead Hard: Tbh I think all exhaustion perks need a drawback. Maybe if they made it so exhaustion applied some kind of debuff.
Unbreakable: I think it should be changed in either one of these ways: Remove the ability to get up, or Make it so you can get up but at a much slower speed.
Iron Will: I think survivors should still have the breathing sound while injured but that's it.
Decisive: It's annoying when the survivor taunts you with it but yes it's generally fine.
Borrowed time: Maybe if they made it so it only works on healthy survivors? Or maybe only injured.
Noed: Noed giving a speed boost would be nice instead of instadowns imo. However there gonna have to add something besides 10% speed. That's not really enough. Maybe quicker endgame collapse or collapse starting immediately when the gens are done.
1 -
Dead hard: very counterable. If no pallet, useless, window is semi useless.
Unbreakable: don't slug then, hook them. Counterable as well.
Iron Will: (I barely notice when they do run this). Still has blood unless paired with other perks. If your in a chase there's no problem.
Borrowed Time: yeah, pretty annoying. Timer is very long. Waiting kt out isn't even an option sometimes.
Noed: completely fine. Don't try and hide a noed nerf post behind other perks 🤦
1 -
why move the ability to make survivors get up from unbreakable?? Just hook survivors
0 -
These perks are all mostly fine and have decent counterplay. You can wait out BT and you can either not slug or slug only when needed against UB
3 -
I cover pretty much all of this in my "shaking up the meta" post:
Basically, making UB and DS exclusive, you either use one or the other, just like exhaustionperks. While making IW somewhat limited like Lucky Break, while also making it exclusive with LB.
Additionally for exhaustion perks, I'd perhaps also make the Exhausted status change all fast vaults into medium vaults.
1 -
They are not all fine and they are all ran together across 16 perks for a reason. They are free second chances with no cost.
2 -
"Window semi useless" opinion discarded
1 -
If you DH into a window you won't be able to fast vault it
0 -
Changes nothing, Dead Hard used well extends a chase whether it be a window OR pallet. Everything you list about "countering" Dead Hard consists of either luck or mistake on the Survivors side, that is ZERO counter play from the Killer in any form.
1 -
Some of these perks aren't even second chance perks, and they're pretty much all both fine and something you can play around.
The only one I really agree with is Dead Hard, but I don't think either of OP's suggestions work to fix it, and I don't know what I'd do about it either. It's really more just very annoying than a huge problem.
0 -
What did I list?
0 -
They are OBJECTIVELY second chance perks, besides maybe Borrowed Time. Even then I don't MIND second chance perks, but there MUST be a cost. Decisive got one: You can't do anything for 60 seconds. Now the rest need one too. Top Survivors run all of these perks for a reason, they are good and FREE. Free with no cost or downside, and cover nearly every strategy a Killer could employ, along with SWF comms, boosted Medkits, map offerings for one of the many broken maps in the game, etc.
0 -
I'm stupid, wrong person. Just woke up.
1 -
Iron Will and Borrowed Time are absolutely not second chance perks at all, they don't negate the downside of making a mistake- you're going to be injured some of the time and you're going to be hooked some of the time, it doesn't necessarily mean you made a mistake. They're just strong utility perks, not second chance perks.
Regarding cost, maybe- that's definitely one way to balance them. DS has one because that's the best way to balance DS, but some of them could maybe do with more of just a straight nerf instead. Take Unbreakable- IF you wanted to adjust Unbreakable, and that's a huge IF, then the better play is to remove the faster recovery time for the one instance of picking yourself up, and then keeping the faster recovery time after that's used up. That's not a downside or a cost, it's just a nerf- and it's probably not even necessary.
Some of the perks on your list even HAVE downsides/costs, like NOED and as you even mention, DS.
So that leaves, what, Dead Hard? That's the one problematic perk on your list, it's not a problem with "second chance perks", it's a problem with Dead Hard, and even that's a maybe regarding your overall suggestion.
0 -
And Ruin, NOED, Devour hope, Haunted grounds, Mori should exist?
0 -
Mori...
When was the last time you saw one of those?
1 -
but we're talking about survivor perks tho.
0 -
I'm sorry, Ruin and Devour hope at high levels get cleansed in the first 30 ish seconds at least like 40% of the time. NOED is a garbage perk but it still technically has counter play, Haunted Grounds is a meme at best and Mori's got gutted long ago.
NONE of these are even remotely comparable to the top Survivor perks, not even close.
0 -
Literally all of these perks have decent counterplay or ways around it in like 90% of situations, unless you are playing scummy, in which yeah they are gonna feel bad. Stop hitting the unhooked survivor. Stop slugging with the risk of UB. Stop rushing gens and do bones. Listen to footsteps (they are so damn loud). They are the best because they are second chance perks, but that doesn't mean they are OP. They are second chances in the events of ######### killer play. If you don't play like that, you will never see them.
0 -
I don't know about that. In the last weeks, I've seen a lot of killers kick survivors ass including me and I think im fairly a good player. Survivors perks shouldn't be nerfed at this point imo
1 -
"Just bow down to Survivors and never ever ever ever play in a way that they may find unpleasant ever" Do you hear yourself? There is no way to play "scummy" as Killer besides facecamping or letting a Survivor bleed out just to be a jerk.
Getting 3 hooks on 4 Survivors at top MMR is not feasible. It never will be unless the game changes in some way either. I don't want to hear whining or complaining from the side that has 16 second chance perks at no cost besides Decisive, along with comms, medkits, and majority of maps easily being in favor of Survivor.
The Killer playing "scummy" is playing in a way that makes you lose. Don't like losing? Neither does the Killer.
0 -
Nah lmao your matches are not comp matches and I guarantee it. Even the top players don't like the perks you mentioned, but they don't think they should be nerfed. How often does UB get used? How often do you actually get hit by DS unless you are camping and tunneling the unhooked person? You don't need to get three hooks on each person, and that is why you patrol and play territorial, and pressure the gens that are feasible for your killer, but if you are literally gonna tunnel the first person you down, don't act like it is your only choice, and don't complain when you get hit by their perks designed to counter that.
I've been a killer main for 4 and some years on this game, and you do not need to play that way every single match lmao. DH isn't even the best exhaustion perk ever, if you swing and they dodge it, that is on you lmao sprint burst and even lithe are far stronger perks as they avoid that first hit from even happening, dead hard requires you to be injured as well as requires an area that benefits from dead hard.
We get it, you feel oppressed and you think the only way to win is by tunneling one person hard, but you can in fact just play good and win without needing to make the entire existence of the game unfun. Not saying you need to "bOw DoWn" to survivors, but it is always clear with these posts that you play bad, camp and tunnel to try and win, and then get mad that you didn't play around the perks easy to play around.
5 -
"Even the top players don't like the perks you mentioned" Not reading the rest of what you typed.
2 -
Comedy gold, "I am just not gonna read all the points that clearly defeated mine" if you don't want to get improve in a pvp game, maybe stop playing.
1 -
No I'm just not reading what you say because you are literally trolling lol
1 -
How am I trolling? Look at most high level streamers and youtubers and they will agree those perks don't need nerfed. DS was the only one needing nerfed and looked what happened. Hell even look at perk tier lists and most of them will have sprint burst in front of DH. Those perks are seen as the best for a reason, they counter the absolute best way to play killer, but that doesn't mean tunneling, slugging, and camping is the ONLY way to play killer lmaoo. If you can give a legitimate counter argument I would love to hear it, but it seems like you have nothing.
0 -
"DS was the only one needing nerfed and looked what happened" Yeah it became a properly balanced perk that is still worth running but actually comes with a proper downside to get use out of it, shocking I know. It's okay, you aren't used to second chance perks having a cost, you'll get used to it.
Results trump bias, Sprint Burst is a preference but still is not as good as a properly used Dead Hard.
If you think Killer is some magical walk in the park where at the highest MMR you can just 3 hook everyone casually while not playing Blight, Spirit or Nurse, and maaaybe Bubba, you aren't a Killer main. What you are is a liar, and a bad one at that. I don't need to counter whatever drivel you spew because arguing against every single dumb thing you say is a blatant waste of time, and since you are clearly not here for any sensible discussion but just to regurgitate opinions that scream you don't actually play the game, I'm just going to save myself time and ignore you from here on out. You are not a Killer main and if you are, you damn sure guaranteed have not gotten to high MMR with a non meta Killer.
0 -
Damn, bro, there's no need to get this hostile over it.
What's the point of even making this post at all if you aren't going to listen to the things people have to say?
3 -
I have no interest in discussion with people who clearly claim to understand the game and it's issues when they very clearly do not. Especially when the have the nerve to say such foolish things such as "Oh Survivors don't even use these perks in the top ranks!".
It's ridiculous and a waste of my time. Ask any streamer what perks Survivors use in the top MMR, what a bad joke.
You want discussion? Be someone who acknowledges the issues this game has and don't dare to pretend everything is fine. SBMM sucks BECAUSE everything is not fine. If the game was balanced SBMM would be awesome but it's not, so I'm sick of seeing people claim that the system is the issue and not the glaring problems the game has from a balance stand point.
The game is not balanced at a high level for 90% of Killers, and this is because of broken maps and Survivor perks being 16 second chances at minimal to no cost. That or a perk that negates an entire mechanic such as Iron Will, along with Medkits, SWF, map offerings, etc.
Anyone who denies this does not play Killer, and if they do they damn sure do not play Killer at a high level. Killer has it's own issues too, but they are NOTHING compared to Survivor issues.
0 -
Okay, but they didn't say that. They said that players at top ranks don't like those perks- as in, they also agree those perks are annoying to face, and just don't agree they should be nerfed. The comment about being used is when they're present in a match but don't get capitalised on- how often does UB actually let someone pick themselves up? I can speak to this being relevant, I don't often get hit with DS and I don't often see UB come into play, even if they're in almost every game that I play in.
So it's not that people are trolling you, or wasting your time, or making bad jokes, it's that you assumed the worst and most bad-faith interpretation of their words and then got mad at it.
1 -
This. The only perks I would nerf are Dead Hard & NOED. I am not saying they should be nerfed but I wouldn't mind it as they are too easy to use/
0 -
I think Enduring is an example of a perk that deletes your mistake that just powerful enough to be useful, but with a small enough effect to not break the game. I think this is probably the strongest a second chance perk should ever be.
DS, is unfortunately a necessary evil, because the game necessitates tunneling, which is generally easier to do than going for all 4 survivors.
UB is terrible. The fact that you can win a match, only to have to win it again because a survivor held M1 for a bit after they got outplayed is something that shouldn't happen.
NOED should require you to get hooks during the match a la No Way Out or something...like at the end of the game you get 2% extra speed, plus 2% per survivor hooked for a total of 10% during endgame. Seems fair that you have to earn it. If it requires hooks you could even conceivably make it speed you up a bit more than 10%. Maybe 12%, and you get 3% per survivor hooked and no speed up if you havent hooked anyone.
Coup de Grace is another one that I don't like for a similar reason, but it's effect is almost pointless. Either way I'd prefer it to be earned through hooks or something else.
Deadlock is another perk that safeguards you for messing up, it just guards a gen because you lost another one.
Sprint Burst basically makes it so you never have to mind your positioning cuz you can just run away if the killer comes.
There's just so many safeguard perks that are massively impactful and require barely any effort from the user. It's kinda sad really.
0 -
"DH used well", you said it all. In good hands, and prepared, DH is strong. Basically, a strong perk is a perk that, if well used, will bring value to the game. If you don't know where you are, or not preparing it, your DH won't change anything.
So that's the point of "playing well", that's the cost of the perk. Give that perk to 3/4, they will just mess up. It's not just "press a button", if it's that so, the entire game is "press a button to win".
Unbreakable, you want to give a drawback to a perk that you never use every game ? My lord you're just an entitled killer main or what ?
Borrowed Time is fine. Just wait if the survivor is cocky.
And tbh NOED is fine as at the start killers have no good perk available, and they're basically playing with only one perk the entire game. Also it is a hex so...
1 -
the thing about UB is you just have to hook the survivors.
0 -
The thing about hooking survivors is that nobody has time for 12 hooks in a game where 3 gens can pop in 80 seconds. Slugging for pressure is necessary, and sometimes games end in 3 minutes and the only thing you can try to do is slug to try to get something.
0 -
Or you could try hooking someone and tunnel them off to get them out early.
0 -
I do. It's boring and awful. And for that there's DS and BT to stall you for several seconds, cumulative minutes even, not even talking about survivors bodyblocking for the tunneled survivor and them predropping pallets without even playing tiles. Again, it safeguards them from being outplayed at the cost of holding/pressing a button and equipping a Jpeg.
I would genuinely, truthfully much prefer a game where I can chase everyone multiple times, where there were good base game measures against camping, and tunneling and where survivors had to outplay and interact with the killer instead of holding M1 on an inanimate object in a galaxy far far away from the killer.
0 -
Honestly, if exhaustion caused survivors to breath louder and/or double the noise of footsteps for it's duration, that alone would be a fair cost to all the powerful speed perks.
Unbreakable and decisive are already fair because they are a 1 time use and done.
1 -
Sadly, the more I play, the more I agree with the Dead Hard nerf, but I wonder if it would be smarter to further balance this game in different areas so that Dead Hard doesn't need nerfing anymore. The biggest reason it's so good is because killers play against the time so strictly, and/or bcause some maps just too many safe loops.
Iron Will I think is fine, and Unbreakeable as well, it only works once, but I can see why some people think it's too much. Borrowed Time in particular is fine as well in my opinion, even if it can be abused a bit maybe. I don't see it much as a second chance perk though. NOED would be fine, in my opinion, if survivors knew NOED existed at the start of the match. But then dull totems would further lose meaning.
0 -
Dead hard: It's not counterable if they do it for distance.
Unbreakable: In most cases sure but when all the gens are done? Yeah hooking is not countering it's giving up.
Iron Will: I think it should have breathing at least,
NOED: People are either complaining NOED is unfun, weak, annoying, or too strong in solo Q. It's clearly NOT FINE.
1 -
Dead hard: even for distance, if there is no pallet, window, exit. It will only extend the chase a few seconds.
Unbreakable: better hook than to let them up, plus one time use.
Iron Will: can't really argue there.
Noed: survs refuse to counter it or play around it. They'd rather not have their games any harder than it needs to be. So when noed inconveniences them they complain rather than learn to play against it. Unfun isn't a valid thing really, weak is opinionated, strong in solo q can also be opinionated.
0 -
These are mostly good suggestions- I have some reservations about Iron Will but otherwise the only thing I disagree with here is NOED. IF one were to give NOED another downside, I'd sooner point to it being announced to survivors as soon as it activates as opposed to when someone's hit, but even that probably isn't necessary as the perk really isn't strong or unfair in its current state.
What I want to highlight is the idea that Dead Hard only sucks so much to go against because the killer is on such a strict time constraint. If the game were slowed down in general, things like Dead Hard or how much pressure medkits deny you would be much much less of a problem, because you wouldn't be losing horrifically precious time from them and you'd have the ability to come back from it if the survivor doesn't continue playing well enough to evade you while exhausted.
0 -
Dead Hard: I don't think people use dead hard for distance if there is no pallet, window, or exit. If there is then what? Just get looped for at minimum 10 secs? Not including hit animation, picking up, carrying to hook, hooking, and going to the gen to defend? Which can equal at minimum maybe 5 sec? that's 15 secs. Minimum. That's almost 1/4 a gen.
Unbreakable: So basically you either lose or you lose is what you think is fine.
NOED: Unfun is valid. In comp it's not but not every game is comp. This is a game which is suppose to be fun. It's like object of obsession. Was it strong against like a spirit? No, but it wasn't fun.
0
