Killer's Complaining is Warranted...in the Right Areas
I am seeing this same thing all over the forums, and all over social media for the game. It is killer's complaining about the game and that the devs "are survivor sided" and "only make killer worse". This couldn't be further from the truth (I never have to worry about keys again, this is huge), and while killers DO have a right to complain, it needs to actually be educated. It is super unhealthy for the game to say stuff like they are gutting characters for no reason, when there actually is a clear reason. Slinger nerfs were more than warranted, they were extremely unhealthy for the game.
*NOW, DOES THAT MEAN DEATHSLINGER DIDN'T DESERVE A BUFF?* No, it doesn't. Deathslinger most certainly deserved compensation for the nerfs, but those nerf were most overdue. The next thing is people saying it wasn't deserved because he was low tier. I can only assume the people saying this don't actually play both sides and don't understand what is good design and what is not. Being low tier doesn't justify horrible game design, it wasn't just "they want the survivors to have more fun", it was "they want the game to be enjoyable and a balanced experience." I still remember people saying the spirit nerf was unjustified also, this is just plain silly.
There are definitely reason to complain as killer. No good gen regression as base. Survivor healing being way overtuned. Things like that are base game problems that could be fixed and it would be infinitely better, and they are getting there. The devs have shown that they will listen to GOOD changes and ideas, like the trapper changes, and the slinger changes were also suggested lots. You know what the devs don't listen to? Ideas that are just insanely wild, actually I have never seen the mods in this forum correcting people so much until recently, it is hilarious to see.
Boons are a great change and a healthy one at that, they give buffs to survivors which require them to leave their objective to do, a secondary objective we have been asking about for a long time, and an objective that is fairly easy to deal with as killer. The problem with them are the existing problems they highlight. Nerfing the boons aren't gonna fix how busted healing is and has been. Nerfing shadowstep isn't going to fix bad map design.
Being a killer is not as horrible as it is put out to be, and it is sad to see so many players pushed away from joining because people think killers are ignored and never get attention, despite the great buffs and reworks we've been seeing from the team. Yes, there are definite things that need changed for killer and they are problems that have been there the entire time, but complaining about things that are hardly a problem, and plain spreading lies and misinformation, is not how change is made.
TL;DR: Stop complaining about things that are hardly problems, and actually be upset with real game balance issues. Whataboutism is a plague in this community and we should work together to make the game better.
Comments
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Perfectly said
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Deathslinger did not deserve that nerf. And this is coming from someone who rarely ever played him pre patch.
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Complaining comes from lack of information. It won't happen as long as MMR, stats, W/L are revealed. Cause once it will be revealed more experienced players would explain weaker ones how wrong they are.
Currently it's like - Omg, I'm X hours player who knows better than anyone this, this and this is broken so nerf is required.
Why do u think in other games it doesn't happen? Because none is going to listen Bronze player when it's completely fine among higher levels.
While we all can agree on some questions, most discussions are all about personal experience and expectations rather statistics.
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It's frustrating to try and get this point across because people WANT to be outraged. They don't really care about balance, they just care about having some scape goat as to why they lost. Sometimes they are legitimate issues but even in those scenarios they're mad about it for the wrong reasons.
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Im pretty sure 99% of people who are upset of the Slinger nerf barely even played him lmao
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Excellent takes, it's nice to see someone with a level head!
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Boons are not a secondary objective. I have no idea why people keep saying this.
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You say boons give survivors a secondary objective by blessing totems, killers have a perk that gave survivors a secondary objective which was old undying, look what happened to that survivors complained about it and that it was not fun and to hard if you have to destroy all 5 even though survivors have perks and items to help find totems so it got nerfed.
Now the devs bring out a perk that benefits survivors and can make the killers game even harder survivors are more then happy to look for totems to bless them and killers have no real hard counter to boon totems , At least with old undying survivors knew it was you get lucky and find the right hex or you end up destroying a max of 5 totems now how many times can a survivor bless a totem im pretty sure its more then 5.
So how can you claim boons are a great change and a healthy one when survivors claimed old undying wasn't?
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Because boon perks benefit survivors, making them a secondary objective instead of something the killer imposed on them to prevent them doing their main objective.
I know the intent is to make it look horrendously survivor sided, but in order for one side to have a secondary objective, that side has to benefit from it.
Also, obligatory "boons and hexes are not the same mechanic" reminder.
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But now survivors have imposed another objective on killers by snuffing the blessed totems out and its not like after the 5th time no more totems can be blessed, by trying to snuff out blessed totems the killers is being prevented from their main objective.
It works both ways with boon totems and hex undying as they both fall into the same area of survivors doing totems, undying got nerfed so will be interesting to see what happens with boon totems.
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Thing is, sometimes the reason given for a change is wrong. The devs DO NOT know what is best for their own game. They have made terrible decisions in the past. Some they undid and others they made another change to try to mitigate the damage.
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But boons aren't really imposed onto the killer. Hex undying was something the killer did nothing to activate, and stayed extremely oppressive to the point where the best way to counter it was to not do totems and to rush gens. The killer objective is to stop gens from being done and to get kills. Ironically, boons keep them away from their own objective, helping the killer with the gen objective.
Also ironically your argument of boons being similar to undying is funny because they both mean the survivor is doing bones which is good for the killer, the difference is boons aren't forced on anyone and aren't horribly oppressive on the killer.
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An extremely optional objective that takes like five seconds to do, people greatly overexaggerate that part. Some totem spawns need to be addressed, but the majority are totally fine on most maps.
It doesn't work both ways. Undying is survivors having to repeat an action multiple times when that action only lets them break even, and boon totems let them re-ignite an actual benefit multiple times if they decide they want to. They don't have to do it, and they don't have to find another totem somewhere on the map to do it even if they do want to do it.
Old Undying was nerfed because it was a problem, in a way that boons just aren't.
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The reason given for the change is he was easily the most uninteractive and badly designed killer in the game, even compared to spirit. I will be the first to admit that they have made some super bad changes, but I mean they quite literally do know what is best for their game, that is why it is still alive for 5 and some years
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Somehow 16 seconds of time from 1/4 survivors in exchange for team wide free healing or to make an area difficult to chase in is justified.. Dealing with a boon as killer is easy, but it is also beneficial to survivors because that killer just dropped chase or lost a gen to go stomp it out just to have it be put back again at minimal cost to the survivor team.
It's like saying "just bait it out" whenever someone complains about deadhard. If you say it enough and have enough spouting the same dribble then you can drown out the issue and hide it.
Same with SWF complaints. You complain about the balance issues with it just to get drowned out with the "just because i have friends" remarks.
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I think killers aren’t actually that bad off honestly. A lot of the complaints about gens stem from a misconception that whether or not the Exits open should be a 50/50 coin toss if both sides play well. But in reality the game is balanced around some survivors escaping and some being killed most matches, which means most matches the gates will be open even if the killer isn’t messing up. So it shouldn’t be a surprise then that the gens are completed most of the time in matches between equal opponents. It’s not an accident or a flaw, it’s statistically the reasonable outcome.
Now if the most common result at high level were that 3-4 survivors almost always escape then that would be a balance issue. But if the average is 1-3 escaping then it’s not. I don’t have data one way or another to comment on where the actual stats lie other than the off the cuff numbers from the devs indicating kill rates for all killers average just slightly over 2 per game, but basically if you are seeing most of your matches as killer in the 1-3 kill range that’s where it should be. If most of your matches are 0-2 kills then that’s an indication something is wrong.
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Its only still alive because all other competition dies upon release. If we had a real alternative we would have a mass exodus.
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A secondary objective does not need to benefit the side doing it at all. That just oozes main bias.
A meaningful secondary objective is also something that must be done (preferably by multiple people) or suffer the consequences.
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I totally agree, the biggest majority of the complaining is from newer players or players that mainly play one side only that just really don't know everything. While our old ranking wasn't the most accurate form it was still better than currently.
I would like it if our SBMM was shown in some way but I understand the problems that could stem from that, like a mass smurf issue.
I just wish more people were more accepting of improving and learning before jumping to stuff needing to be gutted.
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Fair point, that does still technically count as a secondary objective. I'll rephrase - in order for it to be a GOOD secondary objective that isn't just an annoying chore being forced on you, there has to be a benefit to doing it.
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I mean quite literally in most games where there is side things, they are optional and give benefits if you go for it. Not every side objective needs to be a negative thing. Pinhead is an example where he provides a pressure via a side objective but in his case, it isn't really a side objective as it is a necessary part of going against him making it an extra main objective, same with pig. Boons are optional things that require the survivor to make the decision between doing the boon, or doing the main objective.
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As someone who has played him significantly before and after patch, he needed it. The quickscoping was way to powerful, giving survivors little to no chance of dodging the spear if they weren't already strafing a bunch. Besides, he's now faster when ADS and practically all of the add-ons that reduced movement speed when ADS have been reworked too either have less of a reduction, or not reduce movement speed at all. The one thing I have a tad issue is the increase in his terror radius, it kind of mess' with the playstyle of being a sneaky hunter. But, eh, I don't mind it too much. It feels a bit uncalled for, but it doesn't change his gameplay and effectiveness too much, so I more or less don't see any real issues with the changes.
Annoyances, yes. Overall issues, no.
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They feel like it with how powerful they are. Can't blame people for really calling them a "secondary objective." Though, believing that they are is a way of getting killed.
in-game
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The minimal cost for the survivor is now they wasted their 16 seconds for the buff to get nothing out of it, it is like if you did a totem for inner strength, and then the killer kicked the dust and removed your stack.
It isn't drowning out the issues, because boons really AREN'T that op or broken, like I said in the post. The problem with them is that they just highlight real issues with the game, that isn't on the boons fault, that is a key thing wrong with the game. Healing in general shouldn't be so insane. This reply is basically exactly what the post is about. It isn't drowning out the issue, it is trying to point attention towards actual issues that are around the base game, not just perks.
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The issues with the base game have been complained about for years. It is only now since 2 large streamers made videos showing how busted items and healing is that the "mainstream" players are complaining about them. It isn't going to change and they are adding things that just make it more painful to deal with.
The only way to fix the healing issue is to limit the amount of times you can self heal to 3 before you must find another survivor. Map issues are never going to be fixed and are going to be made worse once they finish realm beyond (they will add more safe loops on haddon and swamp maps like they did all the others) This was basically confirmed in an interview with cote where he responded to the balance question with essentially "we tried, it got to difficult as more killers and survivors came into the game, embrace the chaos"
That 16 seconds for potential game changing results is also time a killer loses to walk to it and snuff it usually taking his attention away from a chase or a gen about to be completed. It can even take longer to get to then the survivor takes to bless it, if it is in a building or multi story map. Survivors have downtime while killers do not.
I beg to differ about boons not being broken. Even if you couldn't stack it with a med kit, it is and always will be in this from broken. Just doing tome challenges has gifted me many games where a single COH boon won us the game during 3 gen scenarios or someone trying to hit and run.
Nurse and spirit get particularly shafted by shadowstep
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You lost me at Deathslinger's nerf being necessary. If he's "too strong", there's no hope for this game.
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While also claiming that Deathslinger's nerf was needed, btw.
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Did you actually know why he was nerfed? It was because his design was unhealthy and they admitted that, it wasn't because "he was too strong" or "survivors didn't like him", it was because his design was just not good for the game. If you still don't see that, then this post was directed at you lol.
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Heres to VHS.
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How was he unhealthy? Because he had SOME control in chase over the survivors, in exchange for very little map presence? Is he at fault when survivors give him a free option select at a window, or keep trying to juke his shots when he's not shooting? The delay on the zoom in and the increased terror radius gives players literally no reason to play him over Huntress. Trickster's probably more powerful than him at this point. I was enjoying him so much before his nerf, too. Shots that I could land before, I can't now. Now he has to be played like Huntress, where if you try to quickscope you're gonna miss, but if the survivors dodge and weave you have to wait for them to come directly into your sight, and that's bit gonna happen if they're playing smart and hugging loops to avoid los. This was truly a change which was catered towards survivors who were sub-casual.
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I'm tired of survivors trying to tell killers what they can and can't complain about.
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No, it wasn't a change based on sub casuals. Even against the best survivors he played the exact same as he would against bad survivors. You were impossible to face in chase, but could be gen rushed, how was that healthy? Having a killer based around incredibly oppressive 1v1 but awful 1v4 is just plain bad design in a game like this, and deathslinger was the worst case of it. He is most definitely at fault that with very little skill, he would end chases fast because survivors literally can't do anything. Deathslinger is still a strong 1v1 killer and if you don't think that, you only played him because he was easy to use with the same power of huntress with none of the skill. The shots you could land before are still very much possible, and he is still a scary killer to face...if the person playing him are actually good. It is like the people being mad at the spirit nerf because she wouldn't be an easy win every single time anymore.
If you want unhealthy things to stay in this game just because they make you feel strong, you are just as bad as the survivors who were mad Decisive got removed because they couldn't abuse it anymore.
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A series of luke-warm takes from someone who doesn't experience the issues people complain about isn't any indication you should be listened to, especially with your dismissive commentary after the fact.
Yeah, people overreact. Then there's people who react defensively, like you.
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I don't know that I'd call this particularly defensive? If anything, it reads as slightly annoyed, but that's not quite the same thing.
Regardless, I also don't see any indication that this person doesn't experience the issues people are complaining about, it actually seems like they do and just have a different take on what the appropriate reaction to those issues are. Take the boon example- seems like they do understand that boons have some negative qualities to comment on, but disagree that boons themselves are the cause.
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So basically we are allowed to complain about the problems you have with killer, and stop complaining about the things you do not consider to be problems? Uh huh...
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Here is the thing you have to understand though.
You can’t blame people for complaining if they literally gut a killer’s overall design, if there is NOTHING to compensate for it. Like, what are they suppose to do? Not complain at all and just accept it? Nothing would change if that were the case. This goes for either side.
This is why I never liked the Hillbilly’s changes. His problem were his add ons NOT his base kit. The mere fact that they don’t even acknowledge makes people not appreciate the changes even where they made total sense. So just like with Deathslinger, why was there a need to change his TR? Because people didn’t like them bringing M&A? 😳 Oh no such a busted thing on a killer who cannot literally 4v1.
The problem is the killer’s design most of the time. It is the reason why killers like Trickster suck. You can’t buff them because they would go into overtune territory. Something that doesn’t apply to killers like Freddy and Spirit because they have more going for them.
The point is that just because some nerfs are “warranted” doesn’t mean that the killer wasn’t “gutted”. Especially when it has to do with their main power.
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I've been a killer main for 4 years 👍️
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Please refer to OP's responses throughout the thread, which are much less level-headed than the first post.
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Not really acting defensive, just saying that the constant complaints are a tad annoying when they aren't even true. I do experience the same issues, I just think they are either not really issues with the thing itself, or are things that I as a player can change and they don't require constant fact checking lol
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Didn't say that, I said you can complain about what you want and you have the right, it is just when the complaints are constantly uneducated or blatant false statements that it gets a little out of hand.
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Yeah, I have been, I've been reading the thread since I think it's interesting. I wouldn't say that defending their point is "less level headed", they just didn't immediately fold to opposing arguments lol
There are some pretty valid and useful points being made in this thread, it's not particularly constructive to just write it off as defensive or dismissive when there's a conversation being had.
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Oh yeah fully agreed with this and even like I said, it is fine to be upset with the nerfs since we didn't get compensation in anyway and technically yeah, he is weaker. It is just the crowd that is taking it as "the devs did it because he is too strong" or "they did it because survivor mains cried," when that wasn't really the case, healthy changes like this are good, but yeah hillbilly was definitely unjustified.
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I'm sorry if my responses come off as less level-headed or defensive, I just have my evidence and points I want to provide in a discussion like this, and I am going to present them need be, I want to be as helpful as I can in a discussion and have it not just be bickering for the sake of bickering.
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Your assertion that the complaints are not true is not, itself, true.
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I never said all the complaints weren't true, again my post said it is completely fine to be upset and complain about stuff, it is the stuff of people spreading just false information about why the devs think they do things that is a little out of hand.
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You say that you see a lot of killers complaining about the survivor-sided nature of development, with "only making killers worse" and "gutting characters for no reason". Asserting that that's not true doesn't make it so, and asserting that DS's nerfs were because he was unhealthy for the game also doesn't make that true.
While yes, hyperbolic statements like devs only side with survivors or only hurt killers are inherently false, there's a very real trend toward favouring survivors. It's also unhealthy for the game to gloss over issues with development or ascribe false issues, especially ones based on subjective experiences - and no, it's not helpful to say stuff like "people saying the spirit nerf was unjustified are being silly".
You also class Boons as a secondary objective; you're wrong to do so. It's an optional benefit, not a secondary objective - the latter would mean it was required in some capacity for success or expedited success.
TL:DR - Your opinions are just that. Not fact. Not evidence. Not particularly relevant except as talking points, so just present them as that without pretending that disagreement is lies and misinformation.
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Well, hold on- they're not just "saying" that the devs don't "gut characters for no reason", that's pretty clearly true. You can go and read the reason why DS was tweaked, what most people mean when they say "no reason" is "no reason that I agree with", and at that point it's pretty worthy of pointing out when people are purposefully framing the situation so they can be as mad as possible instead of having a discussion about it.
Similarly, when people say that they're "only making killers worse", that isn't true. Again, you can go and check, it's a provable thing, so why is pointing that out a problem?
May I ask, by the way, and this is a genuine question, not a gotcha- why isn't it helpful to say that people who claim the Spirit nerf was unjustified are silly?
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I never really thought I was stating my stuff as fact, just stating obvious points. If we look at this last patch, it was most definitely killer sided if anything. I know it is my opinion, but I am still gonna support that opinion.
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I never played him because I don't have him but I have gone against him pre nerf and post nerf. I can say he did need a buff to help balance him with the nerf. Before the Nerf the quick scoping was a little broken when other killers with similar skill have to "prep" before their power is activated. Now when a Slinger is the killer I go against he misses alot of shots or just becomes a m1 killer. The part of the nerf I truly dont understand is the increased TR, he is a bounty hunter who's nob was to hunt down men to fill a prison. So his lower TR made sense and his powers really needs the lower TR to be used effectively. His gun is essentially a short to med range weapon that you have to be pretty accurate to land a hit, it has very limited forgiveness for missed shots.
Did he need the Aiming Nerf - Yes
Did he need the TR nerf - No
Did he need some kind of Balance buff to go with the above two Nerfs - Yes.
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@Lochnload_exe I don't think you understand people mean by the gutting a character by nerfing them.
They didn't really give him much in return for the nerfs. ADS walking speed is increased and he is now not able to shoot directly, decreasing his chase potential as a delay can simply mean they can round a corner. You state this is deserved, because he is 1v1 is to strong.. but has horrible 1v4.
Yet his terror radius is also increased with no compensation, which helped in the 1v4 as he could more easily swap targets, get closer to targets and all that.
You speak of compensation for the nerfs, yet the overall consensus is that the nerf bat hit far harder than the compensations he has received. Yet you claim people have no reason to complain, while lets be frank; what made him pretty good was his oppressive and ability to quickly end chases. That got nerfed, his range at which survivors notice him and can start running has increased... his 1v1 got weaker and his 1v4 got even weaker.
If people claim the developers are completely one sided, they are wrong. Yet just because they nerfed DS and keys, aren't showcasing that there isn't an overall issue with the strength of killers being decreased. Most killers do not have 1v4 capacity, the base game has no real 1v4 built in and yet those that are good in the 1v1 are 'deserving of a nerf'... but what are they getting in return?
Boons are not secondary objectives, they are optional, might not even be in play and according to you showcase and amplify the underlying issues of the game.... yet they are tools made to boost the survivors in those areas. It is a buff to them, without scaling back. This is what we call power creep.
Your ideology that there is some imaginary back and forth, compensations, adjustments... while the patches and the implementation do not match it. Stating that we should not complain about these aspects, because it was deserved and it should have compensation somewhere else? Take your Keys nerf, to compensate the Mori nerf... yet one took effect months before the other. If the developers want to not get negative feedback, maybe both the nerfing and the compensation should happen at the same time? Until the compensation has been given, the effect is flat out nerfs.
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