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The problems with Boon Perks
At first I was okay with Boon perks and thought they aren't that bad, but after going against multiple teams with Boon perks made me realize that I was really wrong. Here are the reasons why I think Boons are a problem:
- They can be infinitely relit: I know it takes time to relight a totem, but for something that is really strong and basically gives the whole team a fifth (or sixth) perk, 14 seconds is nothing. There needs to be a limit on how many times a totem can be blessed or the totem should be destroyed when the killer snuffs it.
- Boons stack: Boon effects can stack on one totem. If a survivor has Circle Of Healing and Shadowstep, both of those perks are applied to the blessed totem. Hex perks can only have one effect applied to each totem (Example: Ruin and Devour Hope apply to two different totems), so why do Boons have all effects applied to one totem?
- They cause issues on smaller maps: Smaller maps like Wrecker's Yard, Midwich, Dead Dawg, etc. are an issue when it comes to Boons. If there are 3-4 Boons, they will take almost, if not all, of the map. This basically gives the whole team a fifth (or sixth) perk slot for the rest of the match.
Comments
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Boons stack because the Devs had to make a mechanic to allow Survivors to equip multiple boon perks. And make the maximum amount of boons active at the same time under 5
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Being able to replace a Boon and boons stacking aren't actually problems in an of themselves because boons can be balanced around those general features by adjusting their specific parameters. For example, if Circle of Healing is too powerful in its current form it can be balanced by simply turning down its healing speed. And if Shadow Step is too power it can be balanced by reducing its radius of effect. Also, as was pointed out above, in order to allow survivors to each hypothetically have multiple boon perks simultaneously they have to have all the boon perks on a given survivor stack on their one boon totem. (Otherwise you'd need up to 16 totems on the map for up to 16 simultaneous possible boon perks if all four survivors brought a full set once more Boons are eventually released.)
And note that Boons are intentionally made to not work like Hexes since Hexes, unlike Boons, start off the match in play immediately with no action required on the killer's part and Hex effects are map-wide with respect to where their totem is. Since Boons don't have those advantages they are given this ability to be replaced after being snuffed to compensate.
So while Circle of Healing and Shadow Step may need to be adjusted in their next balance patch (probably in January or so) they'll probably just need to have their effect or radius adjusted with no particular need to change how the Boons are placed in general.
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My ideal change is to give them stacks so they can't be used indefinitely or have the totem break when snuffed. Barring that kind of change to the perks toning down the heal speed on CoH and the AoE on Shadow would be the next best thing. Overall I don't think they're as broken as some claim but their problem lies in the types of players they help most, swf, which is not balanced to the core game (but that's a whole other discussion lol).
Edited for clarity.
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14 seconds is nothing? Ok, if you say so
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No, NOED doesn't activate if the last totem is Blessed.
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He's the thing. Boons should be strong perks because the killer is intended to be able to snuff them out just like survivors are intended on being able to remove hexes. Nerfing CoH so it's about the same power as other healing perks is just going to make survivors run those healing perks instead since they don't have to deal with the restrictions boons have.
I would much rather see boons remain strong perks and give better counterplay on the killer side, because right now snuffing boons is more often a lose-lose scenario than it is beneficial.
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This is completely correct. All of this.
The boon totem mechanic does still need some tweaking, but to suggesting that boons should be temporary is just abandoning the mechanic, to put it bluntly.
In my opinion, what the mechanic needs most is for totem spawns in general to be fixed so you never spawn on top of a totem anymore, and after seeing a few different suggestions around I've come around to the idea that self-healing in general should be capped so you can't heal yourself in stupid fast speeds regardless of whether CoH is in play.
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I don't have a problem with Boons being stronger than passive perks that affect other survivors but which can't be temporarily snuffed out. I'm just saying that if the devs decide the current incarnation is actually too powerful they'll probably just adjust the healing speed for Circle or radius for Shadow Step rather than rework how Boons work overall.
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Right, along those lines the only problem I've really had as a killer with Boons so far was sometimes it was hard or in one case impossible to target them to snuff them out. Apparently the devs addressed this with a temporary workaround in this week's hot fix patch, though, so I definitely appreciated that!
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Then you are completely missing the issue and complaint about them. Killers have an issue that snuffing out the totem doesn't actually matter since they can be reblessed in the same spot again.
Imagine if survivors couldn't destroy totems and hexes relit themselves after 30 seconds with the caveat that while disabled hexes that stack like Devour Hope couldn't gain more stacks. Survivors could keep the killer from gaining DH stacks by coordinating to disable the perk and going for a save, but I imagine many survivors would have an issue with that since they would end up waste a lot of time to deal with 1 killer perk.
What most killer want is for snuffing out a boon to mean something.
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I said something very similar to this in another topic and I play more survivor then killer.
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And killers that have an issue that snuffing out the totem “doesn’t matter” are missing the point that the perks can be balanced just by adjusting the effects. For instance if Circle of Healing only healed 1% health per second it would be worthless regardless of the fact that it can be replaced if it’s snuffed out. So somewhere between the extremes of “healing too quickly” and “healing too slowly” are healing speeds that are reasonably balanced using the current system where boons can be replaced.
Also, like I said before, Hex effects are inherently more powerful that Boon effects because Hexes start the match in play with no action required and are mapwide regardless of where their totem is. Boons being resettable is their advantage to compensate.
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You're missing some extremely important points, and if we are to compare these aspects, then at the very least compare their equivalent aspects. Also, it's not every hex totem that actually starts in play, in fact there are some perks that actually requires a good bit of effort to set up like Devour Hope, and it can be hard countered just through cleansing it, a lot of potential work that is just wasted, and let me just remind you that just to have it in the match actually required a valuable perk slot.
You're saying hex totems are inherently more powerful because they're map-wide and requires no action from the killer to setup. I disagree quite a bit with your statement, because it may be that hex totems are map-wide (which isn't entirely true either) and it doesn't require the killer to activate them in the same way the a survivor needs to bless a totem. But even though it's map-wide, it only really affects one aspect, where as a boon totem actually affects more aspects inherently. Take for instance the healing totem, not only does it provide free self-care but also potentially several other perks combined, inherently these affect game play differently, but if we just look at healing portion, it basically gives the equivalent the perk self-care (at increased speed) or the equivalent of a very fast medkit with UNLIMITED uses - which inherently makes resource management for healing items almost completely redundant, and resource management is actually an important aspect, because this also means that the survivors don't need to worry that much about finding or bringing healing items into the match. Inherently this means that the killer actually needs to ensure downing that survivor because switching to a different task just means the survivor will go heal up, which gives the the rest of the survivor team a lot time free from the killer to work on gens or do other things - that in itself immensely powerful. The fact that killer actually has keep on disabling the boon totems, distracts the killer from doing it's actually object, just like kicking gens does the same thing - it uses the killers time and distract the killer from the main objective. That is also very powerful in of itself. There is a good reason why the killer shouldn't have to activate it's hex totems, mainly because a killer already has time against it and would distract it from the main objective of the game if it had to spend a lot of time setting up and reactivating these hex totems.
When a killer brings in a hex totem - Benefits & Drawbacks:
Benefits:
- Action: Automatic
- Activation: Conditional.
- Area of effect: Map-wide
Drawbacks:
- High risk, High reward.
- Single non-stacking effect.
- When it's gone, it's not coming back.
- Can be located with Small Game.
When bring survivor's boon totem:
Benefits:
- Action: Manual (moderately time consuming - affects only one survivor)
- Activation: Manual setup.
- Area of effect: Local
- Effects: Various stacking bonuses and effects to everyone within it's AOE.
- Uses: Unlimited
- Cannot be hard countered, only soft countered = "Snuffed Out".
- Can block hex totems regardless of the hex totem's activation conditions.
Comparing the two, I see boon totems has a majority of benefits, and where exactly are the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits? I only see:
- Manual setup
- Local area of effect
So why is it by your logic that it's even remotely fair and reasonable that survivors can destroy dull and hexed totems, even bless a hexed totem, when a killer cannot destroy any of the boon totems?
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There is kinda an issue that it's not personal perk, but everyone gets it and doesn't matter where you are. So survivors have basically 23 perk total whenever boon is active. Well, depends on how many players with boon you have, from our testing 2 CoH had best results, it was just impossible for a killer to get rid of both, so we were always able to recover.
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Killers will happily start the trial with hex perks unlit, if they could choose the spot and lit the totem several times.
No killer would complain about this "nerf".
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Oh, imagine having ruin inside your 3-gen every time.
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Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with Boons and Hexes having different overall systems for how they work provided the individual Boon effect parameters are balanced around that. If you make Circle of Healing too slow it’s a weak perk, and if you make it too fast it’s a strong perk, so all you actually need to adjust is its healing speed. And with Shadowstep if you make the radius of effect too small it’s weak, too large and it’s too strong.
So even if hypothetically for the sake of argument the Boon system of placement and replacement is inherently more effective than the Hex system where the totems start in play and can be permanently destroyed, it’s not actually a balance issue because the individual Boons can be tuned using their specific effect and radius parameters. That’s why it doesn’t matter that the two have different systems of placement - you can balance the Boons around that.
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Like I said above, even if you believe the Boon system of placing and replacing Boon totems is more powerful, it’s not a balance issue because you can tune the individual Boon effects with that in mind. Slow or speed up healing on Circle of Healing and it becomes weaker or stronger. Decrease or increase the radius on Shadowstep and it becomes weaker or stronger. Boons don’t need to work like Hexes because they can be balanced around how they work.
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It's the survivors own fault if they 3 gen themselves. Having ruin in the middle would be like having a survivor hooked in the middle.
Nevertheless, survivors could still cleanse that ruin.
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I often force 3-gen from start on some maps...
So not always their fault
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The problem I see is, that hex perks are supposed to be high risk, high reward perks. When in reality the only high reward one is Devour. Everything else is high risk, low reward.
Now compare this to boons. Low risk, high reward. Especially when several survivors equip boons. I mean, 1 survivor equipping boons is like everyone equipping a medkit. It frees up items. Since you can take something else instead of the medkit.
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Then the survivors you face aren't very smart. First gen I try to finish is one of the middle ones. Leaving the outer ones for the end and preventing 3 gens.
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Well like I said, how good or bad the reward is for Boons (and Hexes too) is entirely dependents on their individual effect parameters.
I’m not arguing that specific Hexes may or may not be too weak, it depends on the specific Hex. Devour certainly has the highest risk and reward of all the hexes, it either wins big or goes home! Blood Favor seems to be in a good spot now with its buff. Ruin is still popular, even though people complain about it being destroyed quickly. Crowd Control seems decent. Haunted Grounds and NOED can both get some quick downs.
Boons are going to be balanced on their own individual merits. Circle of Healing’s effectiveness is tuned on its own independent of all those Hexes I mentioned, for example. If it’s currently in too strong a state right now that can be adjusted in January when they do a balance pass.
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You think that 3-gen is hard to beat, right?
I defend that 3-gen from start, I never leave that are, so they can't really finish it.
On some maps at least
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Actually I don't think 3 gens is hard to beat. At least not as long as 3 survivors are alive. Since the killer can't commit to a chase because the other 2 survivors would finish the gen.
Since CoH, 3 gens are considerably weaker, because survivors can infinitely heal themselves.
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Yeah, I agree CoH makes 3-gen way worse.
Well, I think CoH is broken perk overall...
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Yep and it doesn't look like the devs intend to nerf boons any time soon.
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You somehow managed to dodge my questions, please do answer them.
I didn't say there is anything inherently wrong with boons and hexes having different overall systems, but there certainly are problems with how the boon totem system currently is, especially due to the fact that it affects so many parts of game play for killers in a negative way.
While agree with the part about being able to balance them through tweaking the effect parameters, I don't agree with that you can balance them completely around that. But let's say you could, then in effect you'd end up with having to dynamically balance the boon totems based around all the effects being outputted at the same time - That's basically what you're saying with the above.
Having boon totems being able to basically give everyone one or more location based but free perks, it breaks with the fundamental design and balance of the perk system (which by the way is inherently flawed and imbalanced). Because it allows for access to more perk benefits (passive & active abilities) per survivor during a match, more than a survivor actually has perk slots for.
Look at it this way, each survivor can have up to 4 perks each up to tier level 3, that's 12 levels worth of perks, for a total 48 perk levels. The killer can bring the same amount of perks each up to tier level 3, for a total of 12. That's a difference of 36 perk levels, the higher the gap between survivors and killers total perk levels, the greater the imbalance. Adding more on top of this, IS EXACTLY what the boon totem system does, it only further aggravates this imbalance. Let me ask you this, so when survivors get free localized free perks, when does the killer? Because the killer have no way to compensate for these extra perk benefits, even if they're only localized, they are still MORE THAN what a killer can bring.
Personally, I think the boon system is overpowered and broken as it currently is, for reasons I've already stated above and in this thread before.
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So old undying? I love how undying got nerfed for what boon totems do now
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I did answer your question - I disagree that there is an inherent balance problem with how Boons work versus how Hexes work. And I disagree with you that it's impossible to balance the individual perks around their inherent general mechanics by adjusting their specific effect parameters.
There is no inherent balance problem with perks that give all the other survivors benefits because you can adjust those benefits under the assumption that everybody gets them. If Circle of Healing only heals 1% of health per second, it could be map wide and a totally permanent perk that isn't even snuffable it would still be terrible perk. Being available to all the survivors doesn't mean it has to be useful, it all depends on how weak or strong the benefit actually is.
So no, you're making broad assumptions that just because all the survivors gain a benefit from one survivor's perk means that perk is impossible to balance. It's not, make the perk weak enough and it will be too weak even if everybody has it all the time, let alone only when they're in the radius of a specific totem.
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To your second point, Thrill of the Hunt affects all totems right, including other Hex Totems that already have their own effects
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I specifically asked two questions:
- Where exactly are the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits?
- So why is it by your logic that it's even remotely fair and reasonable that survivors can destroy dull and hexed totems, even bless a hexed totem, when a killer cannot destroy any of the boon totems?
Sure you responded to my post, but you did not answer any of these questions.
Just because you say that there aren't any inherent balance problems, doesn't mean that there aren't, because I've pointed out a lot of these already, like for instance, that the killer cannot actually compensate for the extra benefits that survivors gets, even when being localized.
No perk should make it possible for survivors to gain extra perk benefits without the survivors actually having spent a perk slot for it, and where receiving minor passive benefits under certain conditions from a perk user, is something else. Currently, the boon totems not only give perk benefits and abilities that supercede the normal ranges for perks that apply passive bonuses to nearby survivors , but they also give improved versions of them. For instance Boon: Shadow Step completely suppresses scratch marks and hides aura - indefinitely while within range of the totem - that's basically a version of deception/distortion on steroids that ignores activation conditions, ignores token use and have unlimited duration. It's the same deal with Boon: Exponential - it gives every survivor within range a Unbreakable on steroids and a partial No Mither. Can you really not see how this actually breaks balance in so many ways? Please do enlighten me on how the killer can compensate or gain similar stacking benefits from perks or items that hasn't been brought into the match by the killer! Even if you were to change the parameters of these boon perks, they will still give benefits that the killer cannot compensate for.
Killer cannot cleanse boon totems, so there is no hard counter against boon totems, and there should be, just like there is hard counter against hex totems - high risk vs. high reward. So how exactly can the killer perform a hard counter against boon totems when the killer cannot cleanse totems? Snuffing out totems is the equivalent of a soft counter. Also, having to cleanse totems as a killer, means the death of any hex totem perk builds.
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It doesn't affect any totem, it has a parameter that's based on how many dull or blessed totems there are still up. What OP means with Hex totems only can have one effect applied to it, is each hex totem only has one effect. OP is basically saying that hex totems don't stack their effects onto the same actual totem, which is what boon totems do - stack.
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Actually, this the meta for competitive tryhards, because actual good players don't need it. It's really bad, it's just more stuff that makes it easier to make the killer look like a joke, and people who're actually defending this gameplay meta should wake the F..K up and realize how bad it actually is.
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You could just ask why was old undying unfair while boon totems are perfectly fine
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None of what you said is relevant to what I said. Boons being popular or overpowered is because their individual effects are too powerful. Make Circle of Healing’s effect weaker and the fact that it can be placed again after it’s snuffed out won’t be an issue.
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And again I already answered both of your specific questions:
- You don’t need to “balance out the benefits” of being able to place Boons multiple times against Hexes being permanently destroyed in the general mechanics of how Boons work, It’s totally unnecessary to do that. All you need to do is turn down the specific effect parameters of the individual boons. So the answer to your first question is “It doesn’t matter, stop focussing on something that isn’t needed to balance the perks”
- Boons and Hexes being placed differently is fair because, as above, you can balance them out by tuning their specific effects. If the effects are too weak then it doesn’t matter whether or not the killer can’t remove them. If the effects are too strong then it doesn’t matter if the killer can remove them. You can’t just say “unable to remove is bad/good” in a vaccuum, you have to consider the actual individual effects of the perks you’re talking about. So the answer to this question is “it’s fair because the systems don’t need to work the same way for the individual perks to end up being balanced.”
There is zero reason to have to change the way Boons work or Hexes work in general when you can weaken or strengthen them by tweaking their actual effects. You can’t say these things are “unfair” as systems when the same exact systems can produce Boons that are too weak or Boons that are too strong. The system isn’t unfair, if something is out of balance it’s the effects of the specific Boon perks.
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Healing speed from Circle of Healing is precisely the issue. If Circle of Healing added literally 1% health per second do you honestly think anybody would ever use it? Of course not, 100 seconds to heal is far too long, and even if you have other things like medkits that extra 1% per second would be totally negligible.
So there is a point at which you can turn down the healing boost so it would be too weak for anybody to want to spend a perk slot on. Which therefore means there is a range between 1% and its current setting where the effect is just good enough to be worth using as a perk but not overpowered. They just need to find a number in that range.
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You answered my questions? Interesting, because I don't see the answers to them specifically, like for instance where is the answer to my question about where exactly the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits are? Because with all these current benefits, they are needed to be balanced out with something, sure you may not agree, but that doesn't actually change the fact that with this many benefits, they do need to have actual drawbacks.
Also, that you keep repeating the same things, doesn't mean they're/you're right and others are wrong. In fact, there a lot of things where you're blatantly assuming that you can just fix it by tweaking some values, that's not how balancing only works, and it doesn't make other ways of balancing it unnecessary.
To your part about: "You can’t just say “unable to remove is bad/good” in a vaccuum, you have to consider the actual individual effects of the perks you’re talking about." - I have to tell you that I actually am considering each individual effects and aspect of the perks, and I'm looking also looking at them with regards to the bigger picture - you don't seem to do what you say I should. Sure systems can work differently and still be fair and balanced, I haven't said anything about they couldn't, because fact of the matter, is that I'm pointing out there are some aspects with the boon system which are detrimental to the killer game play, but also what needs to be done to fix it.
You believe it's completely unnecessary to do balance out the benefits when you can tweak individual parameters, I disagree with you. Some parameters shouldn't even be included in the boon and thus should be removed, and the way the current boon system works is greatly imbalanced, and not just because of the parameters being too strong, but because of how the boon system is currently working and how much they're actually giving when active and the effect it has on the game play of the match.
You say there is zero reason to change how boons and hexes work in general when you can weaken or strengthen their actual effects, I disagree with you, there are a lot of reasons to that. Simply just tweaking values on either boons or hexes is not enough because of how they affect other parts of game play in detrimental way. How does it make sense that survivors can completely destroy totems and there by hard countering the killers perk, but the killer cannot? Also, since totems used to be killer-exclusive but now also are used by players, that makes using hex totems even more high risk to use, because now there will way more survivors looking for totems. So yes, it's absolutely necessary that the killer can cleanse totems if that is necessary, but most certainly also be able to replacing a hex, but it should be optional for the killer. For a killer that is playing with hex totems it will come to a point where the killer will have to decide if it wants to sacrifice it's totem (hex or dull). You seem to think it's fair and balanced, even with how powerful boon totems are now, that survivors can replace boons and the killer cannot, even that it's fair that the killer cannot hard counter it. It's heavily survivor sided as it is now, it's in no way shape or form where it's actually balanced and fair for both sides, boon totems aren't the only ones being heavily survivor sided, there are so many things in the game right now that is just that, and quite frankly that needs to stop! If anything, It should be balanced so it's fair for both sides, but it's not. You defending the boon system as it is and they should remain how they are but just have parameters tweaked a bit, makes you seem like you support this heavily survivor sided meta, but are you? I play both sides, but even if I was just playing survivor I would still want it to be fair for the killer, and this heavily survivor sided meta is just awful, and the boon system just further aggravates this, and people who support this really need to wake the f..k up and realize that it's not good for the game, and it only really caters to the competitive tryhards.
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Again, here is your question and here is my answer:
where exactly the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits are? Because with all these current benefits, they are needed to be balanced out with something, sure you may not agree, but that doesn't actually change the fact that with this many benefits, they do need to have actual drawbacks.
Answer: Whatever inherent benefits exist in the general system of how Boons are placed can be balanced out by adjusting the specific effect parameters of the specific Boon you're trying to balance. The "drawback" you want would be lower effect parameters (e.g. lower Circle of Healing healing speed)
I already said this of course, and it is the answer to your question, just not apparently the answer you want to hear.
And the reason I keep repeating myself is because I can only correct your misconceived notion that balance is impossible with Boons being replaceable in so many different ways. You're just mathematically, objectively incorrect, and the argument is quite simple: if you can change a variable to make something too weak on one end, and change that same variable to make that same thing too powerful on the other end, then that variable alone can be used to balance that thing into a reasonable range. It's just an example of the intermediate value theorem.
And no, I'm not defending the specific effect parameters of Boons as they are one way or another. I have no data to say whether or not Circle of Healing is overperforming, so I'm not going to claim it is or isn't. The only thing I'm saying is that, if it is overpowered, the simplest method to balance it out is adjusting its healing speed. You're reading WAAAAAY too much into thinking that just because I'm disagreeing with you on that point that I'm disagreeing with you on whether or not it needs an adjustment.
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I am asking you what drawback(s) you think it currently has that makes it balanced? Not how you think it can be balanced.
You believe it's enough to just change the values of the internal effect parameters, whereas I and others do not, that more is required. I do get your logic, but is needed than just change the values of the parameters. Also, when it comes to game balance, it's essential that both sides can counter an effect equally well.
Actually, you're the one that is mathematically and objectively incorrect, because the balancing of said system isn't just based on it's parameters internally, but also on how it affects and is affected by external parameters and not necessarily the same parameters, which is what I've been saying, just using different language. For instance, I mentioned, that because totems used to be killer-exclusive but now also are used by players, that makes using hex totems even more high risk to use, as now there will way more survivors looking for totems - thats an external parameter that is being affected - this is a parameter you can only affect by making it so people aren't going to be using boon totems. Also, changing a variable/parameter to too low to be viable, basically defeats the purpose of it even being in the game. And the optimal would be in the middle of that range, is basically just another way for you to say, you wan the boon system to stay the same, just with different values. So when you're rooting for the most simple solution, there are so many more aspects to consider than just the internal effect parameter values.
The only way it can balanced based on your way of thinking is to remove existing or add new parameter/values, which also includes parameters that affect from outside the formula (system). Removing a parameter/value is the equivalent of setting it to zero. Adding a parameter could for instance be adding the option for the killer to cleanse totems (blessed or not), this basically affect the parameters from the outside of the boon system.
Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but, everything you're saying basically is supporting it should stay the way it is, just with different values, which is very far from the optimal balance. An optimal balance also contains a viable counter, this one does not - a soft counter is not viable nor balanced, especially when considering that the survivors have a hard counter to the hex system that uses the same totem system. The only reasonable and balance solution to this aspect of the boon system and totem system, is to make the killer able to cleanse totems.
Oh, and by the way, since both the boon system and hex system used the totem system, they're part of the same system, both have parameters which on one end can be too weak on the other too powerful, and in the middle is the optimal value - this is another example of the intermediate value theorem. But what you've basically been saying, is that this aspect shouldn't be changed, which is essentially the equivalent of ignoring this aspect, even though it's part of the parameters.
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Your question: "I am asking you what drawback(s) you think it currently has that makes it balanced? Not how you think it can be balanced."
And my answer, again, is: I didn't say I think these individual Boons are balanced. In fact I said it's quite possible Circle of Healing is unbalanced. Nor did I say that I think the "overall way Boons is placed is balanced with the overall way Hexes work". What I said is
THOSE TWO THINGS DON'T NEED TO BALANCED SO I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE NOT
It doesn't matter if Boons being replaceable is inherently better than Hexes being permanently being destroyed because the individual perks can be balanced around that difference. You keep insisting that I need to give you a way to make how Boons are placed balance with how Hexes are placed, and that's fundamentally a wrong assumption. You do NOT need to make the two overall systems balanced, you only need to make the individual perks themselves balanced. You're trying to argue in essence that asymmetrical game mechanics can never be balanced because they work differently and one is going to have some inherent benefit over the other, but that's simply not the case.
So please, stop telling me I "haven't answered your question". I've answered it four or five times now. You just don't like the answer.
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Alright, so you've answered my questions quite differently and with responses that are very similar to your other posts, not just your reponses to me.
Yes, those two things actually do need to be balanced, but you keep insisting they don't need to be.
Yes, it does matter if Boons being replacable is inherently better than Hexes being permanently destroyed, as both systems use the totem system, and in the 4vs1 scheme - the greater scheme of things, this is where it in fact is exceptionally important that both systems are balanced in relation to each other, and how they affect the overall balance of the game - which is part of adjusting the individual parameters. With regards to the dynamic between Boon & Hex totems using the same totem system both sides need to able to counter each other equally, that's how balance works. How it is now, is just a great example of how it's not balanced correctly in relation to each other. Currently the survivors can completely counter-play the killer's perk choices & benefits (and even strategy), alone from being able to cleanse those totems, where as the killer only being able to soft counter them, means that the killer has NO way of actually completely counter-playing it, only temporarily. Not only does being able to cleanse totems represent the equivalent of negating perk benefits but also is a means to hard counter a strategy. You keep insisting it's not necessary, you say I'm making fundamentally wrong assumptions - from my perspective you're making just as fundamentally wrong assumptions. Perhaps, we're just approaching this from different methods and way to solve the same problem, where neither aren't necessarily wrong.
"You do NOT need to make the two overall systems balanced, you only need to make the individual perks themselves balanced." - Please do elaborate on how you can balance these and know that these are in fact balanced, because from my perspective you can't unless you balance them in relation to something else, and that something is that which they affect and/or oppose or is part of.
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To answer your last question, the main step to balancing perks is by comparing datasets of matches with similarly rated players partitioned over using and not using the perk being analyzed. Then compare the discrepancies in the results of the two sets and you get a potential estimate for the size of the impact of the perk on those result outputs. By controlling the estimates for other factors like how often the perk is used in combination with other perks that you also have data on, you can compare match results with the perk in a table of possible popular loadouts, each with various averages and deviations in results, with the lens of then normalizing that within the main partitions of using and not using the perk. If you see statistically significant positive or negative biases after normalizing then you know what direction to tune the parameters of the perk. At that point you use some trial and error and educated guesses with various possible scenarios where to set the parameter you’re tweaking and eventually implement the best looking version. Then review and retweak if needed on the next pass a few months later.
And generally speaking balancing asymmetric games with different systems on opposing sides is nothing new to boons or DbD. Game designers have been doing that kind of balancing for decades. Just because two systems don’t work the same way doesn’t mean you can’t compare the statistical results they generate, nor that you can’t then adjust one up or down if desired. And in fact when balancing game components itks important to change as few variables as possible at a time, that way you can more definitively know that the change you made is having the impact you’re seeing in testing and that it’s not due to some unknown combination of factors from multiple changes interfering with each other.
In the end we both want the same thing - survivors and killers not to have perks that are too powerful or too weak. And I’ve never disagreed with you that the current two Boons could possibly use adjustments in their eventual balance pass. I’m just disagreeing with you that the best way to try and balance something is by making major changes to an underlying system that affects multiple perks versus more surgically changing one parameter at a time in one perk at a time, testing those changes, and repeating.
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