Noed needs a rework

Except that the way you trigger Hex: NOED is completing all the gens. That’s the difference between NOED and Devour Hope and say Hex: Haunted Grounds or Hex: Ruin. The triggering event in the former don’t alert the survivor they’ve triggered them, while the latter do.

I forgot that Devour Hope is also a “surprise” Exposed hit too, though, my bad on that,

This. NOED is only unfair in that it's kept a surprise until you get hit, otherwise it has more than enough counterplay. I'm all for a base totem counter, but given that they added that to Small Game, I'm guessing they'd rather not go that route.

Correct they don't tell it immediately, but in a way noed is like devour.

It's a surprise, but only at the end game.

The only difference between them is that devour you get by hooking and leaving the hook, while noed you have to let them do all 5 gens and hope they don't cleanse any totems.

And by that the game is basically already over unless a few or all survivors just mess up.

The survivors who have a problem with noed should just first start looking at themselves and adjust their playstyle, before complaining about a perk that only activates at the end.

The killer plays with 3 perks all game against 16 perks, so they should have enough time to take away totems.

I wonder if bhvr ever decides to put in another secondary objective, how long it take for them to complain about that.

They can't even cleanse 5 totems as a secondary objective, let alone having another side objective in the game 😂

I'm glad you're bringing that comparison up, because I think it illustrates the issue with NOED quite nicely.

While Devour Hope is potentially far more devastating, it also has a longer wind-up and requires the killer to put in considerable effort to get the majority of the perk's value. Additionally, it is vulnerable for the entire duration, with a single totem (Or two, if the killer brings Undying) carrying the entire weight of the perk. This means that the counterplay to this perk is to seek and destroy that one totem.

So to get value out of Devour Hope, the killer has to get multiple hooks and not camp, and then find a survivor after getting sufficient stacks. And to stop Devour Hope, survivors have to find and destroy one totem, which is available from the start of the match.

Compare to NOED...

To get value out of NOED, the killer has to find a survivor after the fifth gen is finished. And to stop NOED, survivors have to either find and destroy all five totems before the perk becomes active, or find the hex totem after the perk is active.

There's a general concept in game design for both effort/reward and risk/reward, and in both categories, NOED has a massively superior ratio compared to Devour Hope. NOED takes zero effort to put into work and has a far lower risk factor due to having way harder counterplay. Both ultimately offer the same kind of benefit, although Devour Hope can snowball on to be even stronger. It doesn't help that Devour Hope is traceable, while NOED is only declared once it's too late to counter it.

NOED's problem isn't with it being OP, it's just an awfully designed perk.

The fact that it's undeclared until it's too late adds to the weakness of the counterplay. If you do manage to clear all five bones, and the killer didn't have NOED, that counterplay just ended up making NOED -stronger-, since it did a better job of slowing the survivors down than Thanatophobia probably could've done, and without even occupying a slot.

And that's another thing that needs to be pointed out: The thread is called 'NOED needs a -rework-', not 'NOED needs a nerf'.

With NOED's biggest issues just being garbage design, a rework wouldn't necessarily make it weaker. Imagine, for example...

1. NOED is now baseline.
2. NOED's effect scales off of totems left standing, as opposed to firing at full force off of any remaining totem. At one totem remaining, the killer gets a 5% movespeed boost. At 2, all survivors are exposed. At 3, the killer breaks pallets 100% faster and windows block after one in-chase fast vault. At 4, the killer can see the aura of all survivors within 16 meters. At 5, the exits are blocked.
3. Survivors now have a baseline totem counter.

Aside from the fact that this rework wouldn't work as long as camping is an option (Which is another big problem with NOED, its counterplay is mutually exclusive with that of facecamping), this rework would make NOED stronger, but also make the counterplay WAY more fair. Every totem you break WILL, 100%, without fail, hinder NOED. You won't get punished for breaking four totems and accidentally shunting NOED into a godspawn, you won't have to struggle with the whole 'I can't do it by myself, but I can't tell if any of my teammates will help me' aspect of totem hunting in solo queue, and you won't have to worry that you're breaking totems for absolutely zero pay-off.

The whole discussion around NOED just got massively bogged down by the dumbass meme of 'do bones', to the point where no one seems to even give this perk a second thought, or even a first one.

That's also the point of survivors saying 'do bones' to killers. The answer is just as inane, useless and ill-thought-out as saying 'do bones' to a solo survivor complaining about NOED. Survivors put up with it for years, now they're mocking it when it's the killer's turn.

I'm following most of your argument here, though I am noticing a few things I don't think are strictly true? I don't think it's me being pedantic, either, it actually is pretty relevant. For instance:

"[Devour] has a longer wind up" flat out isn't true, you get three stacks of Devour much quicker than you get any value out of NOED unless the match is going tremendously poorly for you. That's part of the balance of NOED- it takes more effort to prevent before it takes hold, but that's because it takes much longer to take hold than Devour does.

" It doesn't help that Devour Hope is traceable, while NOED is only declared once it's too late to counter it." also isn't true, neither side of it. Devour Hope doesn't announce itself until someone's hit after the third stack is gained, exactly the same as NOED, and someone being hit with NOED is by no means too late to counter it. You don't actually have to "do bones", which I agree is an obnoxious and unhelpful meme, you can just take note of where the bones are and sprint to go check those areas once you've seen NOED spawn, if and only if you want to linger in the trial instead of employing the other counter, which is to just leave instead of going for a save.

So, with those two things combined, the wider argument is a lot weaker, in my opinion. You don't have to cleanse every single totem if you don't have any separate reason to do that, because you can absolutely go cleanse NOED after it procs so long as you're not the guy that got hit. From that perspective, NOED is no more OP than any other hex perk, if it spawns out in the open somewhere you can deal with it instantly and if it doesn't then the killer is given a little more time to try and secure some kills, which is the point of an endgame perk to begin with.

From where I'm sitting, there's only one problem- there's only one angle from which "it isn't announced until it's too late" is actually true, and that's if you're the unlucky SOB who gets hit by it. Rather than the full reworks people are suggesting, all that's required is to make NOED announce its presence as the last generator is completed so the first guy doesn't just get unlucky and get hit by it.

You're right that this perk isn't OP. It's not even really that good, it just rewards survivors running into it instead of employing the same tactics that work against any other endgame perk- hide, and with the added benefit of being able to go turn it off far quicker than any other endgame perk.

Why is it unrealistic for 4 survivors to cleanse 5 totems?

And i play solo only.

Yes people do tend to behave differently toward different things.

Comparing Hex's and boons are a very text book false equivalence.

NOED should be a one minute haunted ground when the fifth gen pops. It would make the perk usable as killer, and fair to survivors.

I repeat, what's so hard for 4 survivors to each spend 14 seconds on a totem? Just 1 of them needs to do 2 totems and NOED isn't an issue.

Take Small Game or Detective's Hunch. You'll find the totems before they are a problem.

You know you don’t have to equip DS and BT every match right??

Yeah, that was a mislabelling on my part, I was more referring to the fact that Devour Hope actually has to be built up by the killer's efforts.

That does depend mostly on the performance of both sides, though. A slow killer or fast survivors can make NOED pop faster than Devour Hope.

I didn't say it declares itself, I said it's traceable. NOED has no signalling of any kind before it takes effect, but Devour Hope does have an immediate effect: It lights up a totem. And even before reaching three stacks, it does get a little tell at two stacks, when its first effect comes into play.

It is for that someone getting hit, in most cases. They'll be stuck on the hook and unable to do anything. They might be able to get rescued if the other survivors can find and destroy the totem, but they have to do so with a 4% bonus speed killer with instadowns breathing down their necks.

But that's the issue: When talking about design, we also have to consider the viewpoint of the one sucker that takes the hit. And for that one sucker, this perk is the most unfair thing in existence. Even if it's not OP by any metric, it's still ruinous to the overall gameplay.

A rework is exactly what NOED needs.

I find it interesting that you picked multiple points of mine in your response there but ignored my conclusion, which is still my conclusion here: the response to that unfairness is to announce NOED sooner, because that is the only part of the perk that is actually unfair in any way at all.

You said it yourself: The viewpoint of the one sucker who got hit is important. That's the problem area, nothing else about the perk can reasonably said to be unfair specifically because it's honestly not a very strong perk. It can be blocked from ever activating, it can be turned off once it does, and it's worthless if survivors just leave the trial as quickly as possible after seeing it activate.

If NOED is announced as soon as it triggers, rather than as soon as someone is hit by it, that'll give everyone the ability to employ its counterplay, rather than just everyone except the one guy who got hit.

I think that that's where I disagree with you. Balance and design aren't inextricably linked, and just because something is balanced, doesn't mean it's 'fair'. Imagine a killer that cannot injure survivors at all, but once the fifth gen is done, he automatically teleports to one random survivor and moris them.

It'd be the weakest killer, and also the most unfair.

So just because NOED isn't necessarily OP, doesn't mean it's immediately fair. It's still a perk that pays off too much for too little, with too little, too unintuitive, and too unrewarding counterplay.

Small Game has a totem counter.

We try telling people this but they don’t wanna use a perk slot... because well meta perks are important.

We can nerf NOED if Dead Hard gets nerfed too.

That doesn’t make any sense.

Because that has nothing to do with NOED. And old DS is not even relavant.