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Exponential Proves the Devs Have Forgotten Twins
Comments
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I find it fascinating that instead of making a killer, whos only power is to stand around while being afk, more enjoyable for both sides (key word: coop killer). They just nerf them into oblivion, probably hoping that people forget they exist.
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I do as well from time to time. The new patches however is making me want to play them less and less.
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Yes but that still doesn't mean it can't happen. It's like old Object of Obsession perk. You didn't see it offten but when you do for someone like Trapper well it was gg. You was powerless trapper. If it was SWF group then you coudnt use your power because everyone or that Survivor would know where it is. By one perk. One person is enough to run it for the whole team to ruin your game. This is the same case.
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I play them sometimes. I just hate the 5 second cooldown
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You mean 8 second? 5 seconds with victor and then 3 for waking up as charlotte.
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I really think that when player controls Victor, Char should auto follow Victor (the player) at 60% speed and then follow-attack survivors in 28m radius from Victor if they're in LoS.
When player controls Char when Victor is being free, he will homing to the closest survivor and show Killer instinct in 4-6m radius but not attack.
That would put alot pressure without being OP. Could be fun for both side.
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Fact is BHVR don’t like twins and are trying to quietly sweep them under the rug. Remember when deathslinger was a year old we got a tweet and a little celebration? Where’s twins celebration?
They’ve got 1 cosmetic set over the span of a year and every update is either directly or indirectly killing them. It’s the clear the devs want to remove them but can’t
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The twins have been oppressed by society in their lore and now it's literally becoming reality.
They need love.
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Yep they do but BHVR clearly ain’t interested in giving it to them. I think they want to forget binding of kin ever happened
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As much as I hate twins, if you actually can't pick them up in time that's just stupid.
Fortunately for you, I don't think exponential will actually be used that much due to how situational it is, and especially considering twins aren't commonly played.
I do think victor should be able to interact with boons and/or you should only have to wait as long as you do after a down if you want to slug; you should be able to switch back to charlotte much faster if you intend to pick up and hook.
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That would make them useless, or at least their power. Since the advantage of victor is that he has not terror radius.
Best option would be to make them the first coop killer that can be played together with your friends.
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Yeah i forgot to count that
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After you down someone with Victor, you have an 8 second combined fatigue before you can start moving to pick them up (5s on Vic's end, 3 on Charlotte's). In that time they've recovered over halfway, and unless they're within 30m of Charlotte they will get up before you can pick up.
If a Survivor gets M1d by Charlotte, they can cover 40+m before Victor can even get in Pounce range.
You can pick them up if they path into Charlotte but that's it.
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While I do agree that Exponential (and Circle) is particularly problematic for Twins who obviously excel at building pressure and snowballing by injuring and slugging multiple survivors, my argument is that not only will it be awfully rare to see Exponential, but even when you do the game is not at all "unplayable".
The moment Twins released, experienced players already understood that the optimal strategy against them is to team up in duos, such that if a person gets downed by Victor, the other person can kick him and potentially even heal the slug back up in time. And yet despite that being an obvious and optimal strategy from the get-go, Twins still performed exceptionally well. Most survivors (even when grouped up in SWFs with voice comms) are just not that "clever" and coordinated and make suboptimal and downright bad decisions and plays all the time, and Twins thrive on chaos. Not only that, but healing a survivor up takes 16 seconds, and in those 16 seconds Charlotte can cover a distance of 73.6 meters, more than two terror radii worth. Accounting for the 3 seconds it takes to regain full control over Charlotte, it's still 60m. And even in cases where she is so far away that she can't get there in time, she will obviously still get much closer, and will have Victor available again, ready to create mayhem with Charlotte now around to capitalize on it. Even in tournaments Twins have performed surprisingly well despite the levels of coordination there obviously being much higher.
With Exponential it also takes 16 seconds for the survivor to recover, and if there's no other survivor around, Victor will still be positioned close to the slug and so you can just switch back to Victor should you not be able to get there in time. Plus that Boon obviously has to be set up first, and a survivor has to make it into its area before they go down (and for that they first have to even know that that Boon is Exponential). It's just not something that I can see will ruin her chances even in the rare matches where it does come up, not least because Twins' playstyle can be adjusted - even if it isn't optimal, one can adopt a playstyle of mostly using Victor as a short/medium range chase tool, where you will first initiate chase with Charlotte and only unleash Victor when you are close enough to capitalize. They can also be played with more of a focus on defending hooks rather than constantly injuring and slugging survivors, where you commit to chases even as Charlotte to secure hooks, and then leave either of the two at the hook while pressuring the map with the respective other twin. Similar to how Oni can also be played for short-burst Fury activations where rather than trying to cause as much damage as possible within any Fury, you try to get one down as soon as possible, and instantly pick and hook the survivor so as to conserve Fury for the next chase, also regularly being able to defend the hook with Fury at the ready.
That said, Twins do suffer disproportionally from Exponential and Circle, and the latter is obviously actually commonly used. And rare as it may be, against well-coordinated groups all members of which know how to play against Twins and play to abuse these Boons, Twins' game plan will actually be heavily disrupted by them. I do think Twins adjustments to the new Boon reality are in order - Boons are a new category of perks the value of which is strictly tied to an area on the map, and Twins are the only killers in the game that are limited in terms of what they can do in certain areas (wherever you are while controlling Victor, that is an area you cannot pick survivors up in, kick generators in, break pallets in, and so forth), and so I do find it perfectly reasonable to make concessions for Twins with regards to Boons.
I wouldn't be opposed to decreasing the "wake up" duration from 3 to .25 seconds when switching back to Charlotte, same as when switching from Charlotte to Victor. I don't see a balancing reason that would even necessitate this long period where you are unable to control Charlotte. It feels bad and if anything the "surprise attack" quality of catching survivors out that are being bold around a dormant Charlotte is something Twins should have. It would also improve the chase interaction where the killer player can switch back and forth between the two in order to catch a survivor out on tileplay, and this quality of "chasing one survivor with both twins" is pretty cool and something we barely see with the current 3-second wake up duration.
Furthermore, I think Victor should be able to snuff Boons (and rekindle Hexes, for Pentimento).
On the other hand, I think the time it takes until you are able to unleash Victor again after he regenerates should be increased. Crushing Victor should be more meaningful, especially considering that "being chased by both simultaneously" would be much more common with the fast switching between them. The "regrow" time is currently 6 seconds, I think it should be at least twice that. Add-ons that currently pertain the "wake up" duration can then be used to decrease the regrow time.
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Pixel - I am glad this thread was made as I would like to talk about this. I watched the YT Twins video last night.
My sense is that the best suggestion from the vod was to allow, maybe even force, the Twins player to switch from Victor to Charlotte after downing a player to make the hooking phase a little less time consuming. Nice QOL change. Switch back from Charlotte to continue attacking with Victor.
The other suggestion about reducing the Twins cooldown, I can say I am not in favor of. Those cooldowns are there to prevent the ease of mass slugging, which was in my opinion not talked about enough in the vod. One of the last clips in the vod perfectly showed why Victor earned that five second cooldown as it showed a three man slug in a short duration.
This is the drawback of one of the strongest powers in the game as several other forum posters have articulated earlier in this thread. If Twins is not the fifth best killer in the game, they are the sixth or seventh. In their current state.
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The next time a Q&A comes up, we should do our best to bring up the Twins issue to the front.
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Twins main #10 or so I guess. I picked them up the day I bought the game, because I have a set of twins IRL. I play them at least 2 or 3 games a day, and they are the only character on either roster I've prestiged at all, and I prestiged them all the way.
I too, have had to change the way I Twins. For a long while the idea way Hit, Unleash, Win Chase and pickup. But these days...I've lost too many wound states and downs to Tenacity / No Mither / Endurance / CoH / Exponential. And that's just someone on their own. Add in a smart team in decent MMR with any experience against the Twins, and they are running in pairs so one of them can smash Victor and pick up their friend.
So I struggle on...running Trail of Torment + Overcharge + Oppression + BB. I only play when I have at least a silencing cloth, (makes Charlotte undetectable for 20 sec) and hopefully also either a Top (gives Victor Franklins Demise) or a Stew. (More Victor speed)
I hide Victor in a loop I'm going towards / a gen I think they want, then M1 with Charlotte, and if I'm lucky I catch them off guard with my invisible french peasant. Otherwise, I hope to herd them to Victor and switch for a knockdown and pickup.
Its a hard monster to love right now.
If they needed just the fewest changes possible?
- Attach Victor to the downed survivor and make it to where they crawl at half speed, trigger Killer Instinct, and can't recover at half speed until he's removed by an ally. 3 seconds would be appropriate.
- Give Charlotte Killer Instinct when a survivor is around her.
- Shorten Victors failed pounce recovery to 1.5 seconds, but add 3 seconds or so to his respawn time after he's crushed.
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I know which clip you're talking about, and they could have prevented in any number of ways. Three injured people clustered together who didn't even try to kick Victor after he downed someone: why SHOULDN'T they lose the game as a result? That's like 3 people running into a Bubba's chainsaw or an Oni in power and then complaining about slugging.
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Piping in as a fellow twins main, all the nerfs really prove they only use statistics when it benefited them. We were getting massive quality of life buffs until someone was like "oh wow Dowsey got a 200 win streak on the twins" and then everything went to hell lol
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+1
(trying to bring this thread up)
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Then why do most og the new killers suck? If they want you to spend money theyd buff Myers,Freddy, etc, characters you cant buy with iri shards
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if Victor pounces on a boon its snuffed. ggez
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ratio + buff low tier killers
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Wanna know WHY most twins slug/fc?
Because it takes them like 20 seconds to get to the downed survivor. Thats a long time. Fatigues, stuns, etc hurt them SO bad. that once they get a down its not worth taking forever to get to the downed survivor. its faster to force healthy survivors towards Charlotte with Victor, injure them, and then down with charlotte than to down with vic, sit through hit fatigue, wait for the ability to swap, sit through wake up fatigue, waddle over to the downed survivor and pick them up.....only for them to be unhooked seconds later.
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Charlotte is a rare case as due to her being a single killer of her kind where she needs to operate victor as well, so its easy to forget about her existence due to her being a one of a kind killer
With a total of 26 (Demo is still a killer idc!) killers in the game and only 1 being a killer where they have a ranged power like that, being her, its easy to forget about her existence when making perks, however whats really bad is that you can't nerf Exponential just because of Twins being extremely weak to it or else then you'll get useless perks, Twins in general needs a buff to compensate for this perk, not a nerf to an already mediocre perk
Easiest buff to her is making Victor's pounce downs disable recovery timers for 5 seconds (Another buff I wanna do to her personally is making Victor's pounce only punish him if he misses, so a 5 second cooldown if missing but 3 second if hitting) as this should basically put Victor more on par with the other ranged abilities when it comes to perks, while still making him unique compared to them
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while that would be fun it would be busted af
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I don't even like the perk but I'm gonna carry Exponential in every single match from now on just to trigger Twins mains
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Found the toxic survivor! Imagine bringing a perk SOLELY to say f you to a specific killer that few people use that you dislike because you dont know how to play against them
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What perks do Trickster mains hate?
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Oh sure, be the A-hole here.
Good luck finding Twins anyway.
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Another dose of solid facts, courtesy of the Lore Guy
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@MandyTalk @not_Queen @Peanits Any chance for a comment on this?
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One thing that's worth saying: Twins do well in tournament play because in Twins tourney matches, basically everything that heals you is banned. According to DBE rules, Circle, Self-Care, Exponential, Soul Guard and Botany are banned against everyone, but Twins also get more or less every other healing perk banned (WGLF, Desperate Measures, Inner Strength, Resurgence and ALL MEDKITS banned). Twins, for their part, have no perk bans beyond the general perks that are banned on every Killer, and can use any addon except Ultra Rares.
And perk stacking is also restricted, so you can't have more than 1, say, Unbreakable, Dead Hard or BT. That's not a restriction in pub games.
Twins do well because the stuff that massively counters them is kept out of their tournament matches. In pubs, you can go against 2-3 strong medkits with addons, 3 Circles, 2 WGLFs and an Exponential or two and that's just something you can run into on a regular basis.
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1) Why should the regrow time be longer when you lose huge amounts of distance every time you get kicked and can get kicked after every single attack (miss or hit)? Like I didn't know whenever Blight landed a rush or Huntress threw a hatchet, they teleported back 40m and were unable to use their power again for 15 seconds.
2) Twins do well in comp play because medkits and healing perks are banned against them, and other perks are restricted from stacking so you can't run more than one UB. Those restrictions don't exist in regular play.
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It's funny because twins have literally infinite issues (the fatigues being the most prominent). There's a really big issue on console for them however.
@PixelBush I'm assuming you don't play any console nor see any console twins, there's a really clear reason for that: Victor pounces are incredibly hard to hit on console especially without sword. With how you have to track survivor movements during the charge up time a joystick makes it incredibly hard to hit especially if they start strafing in front of you.
This is already bad enough but you also cant strafe that well during the charge, which I cannot express how important strafing is to console aiming coming from a console slinger/trickster main. It's really hard to describe how strafing effects console so much, just know that it does.
This on top of trash framerate makes them incredibly beginner unfriendly and hard without reason.
I don't really see this discussed in your videos (which btw are really good vids). I would want victors strafe speed increased when charging a pounce, or maybe even a mini toy sword built in (which they need anyway).
Post edited by Leachy_Jr on0 -
no mither
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While it's undoubtedly true that particularly the DBE ruleset benefits Twins, it's still a fact that they suffer tremendously from coordinated and strategic teamwork, and in tournaments the level of coordination and strategy is higher than you will ever see in pubs. Survivors can team up to counter Victor, in fact in tournaments you will regularly see them abuse lockers alongside bodyblocks to completely deny Victor downs. They can heal each other reliably, and there's even certain healing perks such as We'll Make It and Desperate Measures that are allowed.
Twins are not far behind the big three of Nurse, Spirit and Blight in terms of consistently having a chance to 4k teams in tournaments, in more than one tournament they even outperformed some of them statistically, and that does go to show that they're a top-tier killer. Again, more than any perk or item itself, coordination and practiced strategies hurt Twins, and the disparity of coordination and strategy between the vast majority of pub groups and tournament teams is immense. The fact that Twins players can still compete against that consistently makes it easier to understand how it is possible that someone could get 199 4ks in a row with them in pubs, killing 796 survivors without a single one escaping. Victor just has no meaningful counterplay much of the time, even tournament teams that coordinate to make it as hard as possible for Victor to snowball regularly get grinded down by them. In pubs Twins regularly just dominate.
As I've already agreed, Circle and Exponential are particularly problematic for Twins. I did suggest the Twins-specific buff of enabling Victor to snuff Boons. I've also suggested general Boon nerfs in the past, such as making it so that each player can only bless each totem once, meaning if it gets snuffed they'd have to find another totem to bless. I'm also for limiting the amount of perk and item stacking that can happen in SWF groups. I think Twins (and other killers) can compete perfectly well against random survivors with uncoordinated loadouts and plays, even if they each have some of the strongest loadouts (which is awfully rare). But SWF groups not only get the benefit of being able to communicate and coordinate their plays and strats, but also their loadouts, so they can reliably boast some of the most powerful survivor side loadouts. Personally I would like to see SWF groups only be able to equip any perk and item/add-on at most once between them, so they would all need to have distinct loadouts.
Why should the regrow time be longer when you lose huge amounts of distance every time you get kicked and can get kicked after every single attack (miss or hit)? Like I didn't know whenever Blight landed a rush or Huntress threw a hatchet, they teleported back 40m and were unable to use their power again for 15 seconds.
Again, we are talking about a top-tier killer here that has proven in pubs and tournament settings that they are able to hang with the best. Not just that, we are talking about buffs for this killer, prompted by the introduction of perks that survivors might very well not be using in any given game (and in the case of Exponential much more often than not will in fact not be using). I think a little caution is in order.
With a pretty much instant wake up after regaining control over Charlotte as I've suggested, you are not losing much distance at all. Victor is a unique ability in that he not only has little counterplay, but he obviously can pressure survivors on the map while Charlotte is still being a threat elsewhere. If you could control your hatchets mid-flight, stopping and starting and seeking targets, and also leave them around the map and switch to them at will, maybe then it would also make sense why there should be more of a penalty for missing with them, and why it should not be possible to spam them. If there is a sensible nerf for Twins to compensate for the buffs I lined out, I think it's an increase of that regrow time. And again, that's especially because the quasi-instant wake up time will make it much more attractive for Twins to chase survivors with both characters, and if a survivor manages to actually crush Victor in such a scenario it would be ridiculous if they both get no distance from Charlotte and Victor is back out a handful of seconds later too.
Morever, I think you will find that many players just do not enjoy facing Twins (or playing them, for that matter), because they naturally encourage some of the more oppressive and unpleasant playstyles, such as slugging and camping. If BHVR is neglecting Twins (at least in the sense of not buffing them), I think that would be the reason. I've suggested entire reworks for Twins in the past for that reason. I think the coolest thing about them are ambitious and tricky Victor pounces, as well as surprise pounces over obstacles - I would want to see a rework that actively encourages those things, because in their current form the optimal play is always to get Victor as close as possible and guarantee the hit, which is pretty boring. I would also want them to put more focus on Charlotte, currently she is kind of just the vehicle for Victor, the latter being who you want to be controlling as much as possible, Charlotte mostly just being there to take care of the chores.
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You can't fool me!
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Dowsey's winstreak, as impressive as it was, was done in an age of DBD far more favourable to Twins.
It was done with...
-Twins being able to ignore BT and DH
-OLD Ruin Undying
-None of the collision bugs that arrived post-Resident Evil
-No MMR, meaning going on streaks was much easier than now
-no Circle of Healing, DH validation or Exponential
-The old 3 second fatigue rather than 5 seconds
-they were really new so nobody knew how to play against them
Twins were top tier for a bit, but they've fallen from grace so spectacularly hard and only remain relevant against uncoordinated messes who don't know how to travel in pairs or teams who've been prohibited from bringing any of the super strong items or perks that stop them from doing their thing, specifically chosen on a map that favours them. For Twins to be able to "hang with the best" pretty much every meta tool the Survivors can bring have to be taken away from them. But we live in a world full of god kits, impossible maps and supercharged healing and recovery perks.
Compare them to an actual top tier like Blight and the differences are stark. Blight has several strong add-ons banned, several perks banned, is given a much less favourable map (Gas Heaven) and is given fewer Survivor perk and item restrictions and still does substantially better than them. Twins aren't nearly top tier. They're good, at least in a world without Circle and Exponential and stupid medkits, but they're still just a worse Oni at the end of the day.
For the game as we have it now, Twins are inexcusably badly equipped to deal with it. Something has to give.
Otz did 50 wins in a row with 3-perk old Trapper, does that make Trapper top tier?
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Twins are dead. As they should.
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I also main twins!!!
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While the points regarding Dowsey's streak are of course valid, we are talking about a 199 match streak here. Something like that is absolutely beyond insanity to even just think of in any even remotely competitively balanced game, the fact that it was possible doesn't suddenly go from "what the hell?!" to "oh, okay" just because of some perk changes.
The idea that Twins are only "relevant" anymore against uncoordinated messes or survivors without med-kits and Circle is hyterical. They are still 3-4king in tournaments against some of the best teams in the world, and sorry, but in the world where I live you can give most pub teams 10 med-kits and 10 Circles and they will still not be anywhere near as competitive as these tournament teams that are composed of some of the most individually skilled and experienced players that compete and practice in the most competitive settings in the game all the time and have for years, and do so in teams of players they've known and played with for years, having a degree of coordination and cooperation that pub teams can never hope to have. And they are not in fact deprived of "every meta tool", their builds are highly optimized, abuse perks like Deliverance and Kinship in ways randoms never could, they still get to bring 1-2 copies of the most potent perks in the game like DS, DH, BT, Unbreak, and beyond that they can coordinate in ways that easily make up for not being able to bring 4 of each of those. Such as sending your BT player for rescues.
Likewise, in the world I live, having random pub groups full of ungodly stacked loadouts is vanishingly rare an occurrence. I almost never see 4 med-kits, and let alone 4 Styptics/Syringes. I'm pretty sure not even half of my (high MMR) matches even have a map offering being burned, and that costs no perk/item/add-on slot and objectivey can skew the odds of the match significantly, yet more often than not all 4 survivors decide not to do so. And if they do it's not at all always even for a map that is actually super unfavourable for me. The average loadout pub groups have is really not all that ridiculous (but again, I do agree that it can be, and that loadout limitations for SWFs are in order for that reason).
As a related by the by, you might want to have a look at this post of mine where I evaluate a recent tournament in which everything was allowed, meaning you get to see not only teams stacked with god kits and 4 DS 4 DH and the like, but those teams are also some of the best and most competitively experienced in the game: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297338/statistical-evaluation-of-an-interesting-tournament - Of course, nobody played Twins here, so it's not directly related to our discussion, but it goes to show that the ceiling of survivors with all these things in play is not nearly as astronomical as people make it out to be. I would not be surprised if Twins could still be "relevant" even against this sort of competition, meaning that while I don't expect them to actually consistently have a chance of outright winning like Nurse, Spirit and Blight (particularly because Twins have no truly busted add-ons like those killers do), I could still see Twins deliver an average of around 2 kills and 6-8 stages, which is balanced.
Anyway, even at the oh-so-scary high MMR, the average pub lobby is not nearly as scary as you make it out to be. I guarantee that Dowsey and any other good player would still be able go on impressive streaks with Twins (and any killer for that matter), and I in fact know that most good killer players still win the vast majority of their matches with much of any killer. MMR has improved things, absolutely ridiculous streaks like that do seem impossible now, high MMR players see more challenging matches more frequently now... but it's still like 1 out of 10 matches, which is better than 1 out of 100 like it was in the past, but either way, good killer players still win pretty decisively 80+% of the time in pubs.
You are not facing tournament-level squads stacked out to the teeth every time, far from. You are actually more likely never facing actual tournament teams like that. You can absolutely do well with Twins most of the time if you are competent. As I've said, Circle is a problem, for Twins and in my opinion also beyond that, and there are nerfs for it or Boons in general that I would agree with, and I do think Twins deserve adjustments specific to this new Boon world. But I do not agree with this idea you seem to have that Twins are a thing of the past, forgotten, "irrelevant", poor, bullied by Boons, or whatnot. I find that sort of rhetoric silly at best, and more often overly dramatic and tiring. I can 4k with perkless Legion in EU Central high MMR, all the competent-and-above players I know and watch have no issues comfortably sweeping the floor with most pub survs. I really don't vibe with this idea that killers are "not viable", I more vibe with the idea that people should git gud.
That's not to say various of the killers don't deserve buffs, they do. Even Twins could do with some buffs, both specific to the new issues they are facing now and with regards to encouraging more fun playstyles. I however don't think their basic gameplay loop has to be buffed as you suggest, by decreasing Victor fatigue after pouncing, or decreasing Charlotte's wake up time without compensating for it by increasing the regrow time. Their base gameplay is in a good spot, they're a completely competitive killer many experienced players regard to be among the top 5.
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none lmao
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