Nerf NOED
By which I mean make it so it isn't a surprise. When the final gen pops, make sure survivors know they're exposed rather than having it be a surprise until someone gets downed. This is probably the best way to balance NOED.
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It already is balanced cause you can prevent it before it even activates.
It's already not a perk 80%of the game but the little surprise is nice to get these cocky body blockers
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I'm inclined to disagree about it being balanced because you can prevent it before it even activates. Most of the time, in my experience anyway, the final gen pops mid-chase and the unlucky survivor gets hit by NOED.
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But that's the thing you can prevent noed. Gens are going to fast anyway so you could run one or two perks to quickly find and destroy the totems if noed is such a problem plus running a boon perks you can just cleans 4 and boon the last since it prevents noed
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Sorry but no...one of the few things killers have at end game are surprise hexes, survivors are already spoon feed a crap ton of information throug the entire game betwen the terror radious, hearth beat, vision range, grunt sounds that tell you exactly what atack the killer its about to do, other sounds for aim things and so on...survivors dont need more information given for free
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To be fair, i tried endgame builds with noed. I sacrificed all my gen slowdown for endgame mechanics (noed alone or with blooodwarden)... and i got such a lot of value from the perk. In that case it can be fair, but when someone use gen slowdown and add NOED on top of it... that's when i think it becomes unhealthy for the game in my opinion.
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I'd agree with this. It's honestly not that powerful of a perk unless you go hard into an endgame build (at which point it's certainly reasonable that you'd get value from it), but the fact that it can surprise the one guy who doesn't actually have a chance to employ the perk's counterplay isn't super fair.
I'll take anything that encourages survivors to leave the damn trial in the endgame, so having them know NOED is active might help push them out of the gate without them stopping to practice their squats first.
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As unhealty as a full squad of CoH users with medic kits and or toolboxes, brand new parts and second chance meta perks?.
The thing is given the situation of the game, NOED its one of the few perks taht can get you some value at end game to tip the scales of the game, slowdown gen perks arent unfair, at this point are a must given how fast generators can be repaired.
Both sides have their "unfair" share of stuff if you want to call it that way, but more often than not survivors take the cake with game breaking combos and mechanics.
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The hidden exposed effect is okay really. It's not like noed is the only perk that the other side is oblivious about after all.
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I would have said something like ''just do bones'' back a few patches ago but now with boon totems I even got scolded by another survivor at the end game chat for cleansing one since he had circle of healing... so maybe a notification would be nice.
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im fine with nerfing noed as soon as boon totems have a token count for uses. say 2-3
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Its not because survivor have more bullshit things than killer, that bullshit killers things shouldn't be dealt with either. What i see is that solo q survivor have a hard time dealing with gen... and then you expect them to do 5 gens and 5 totems scattered around the map (with nothing to coordinate on the last task).
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considering killers have to deal with 4 survivors wich entitles atacking, chassing, hooking, snuff boons, deal with palets and loops, kick generators and other minor things...i dont se whats the problem with survivors fumbling generators and totems...killers have to deal with a lot more things that survivors do ALL the time.
The thing is the original intent for the game was that there wasnt supoused to be ANY kind of comunication betwen players, thats why theres no writen or voice chat ingame
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NOED is fine. Do bones or deal with a chance to deal with it later. You can play around it. You can also play more safe in the end game until you see if the killer has it or not.
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You can't prevent it in all situations. Against a camper bubba you can only do all 4-5 gens. You have no time for totems. You barely have time to genrush if you are lucky enough.
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Well oke that is true but let's not make a camping Bubba the prime example we balance the game around every killer with an insta down can camp like hell if they want but in a normal game you have enough time to do totems it would even make the games a bit longer les Gen rushy maybe the many killer won't even use noed or tunneling and camping cause they don't feel that pressure that two Gens pop while you down your first survivor
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Cleanse/Boon all 5 totems before the end game or cleanse one at the end game before going for the save or leave and let them get 1 kill.
Like how do people think that a perk that only is active in the late game, meaning the rest of game they are 1 perk down and is preventable/removable should not be at least strong enough to down a single survivor.
You being chased, last gen pops, maybe it is time to play as if they have NOED. A team can easily deal with it, even if they get you down.
This is what makes it balanced.
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Yes, let's rewards a camper bubba with noed that camped his first hook with 4-5 gens left because "most of them" are not even playing like this.
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The thing is noed is a balanced perk that can be counter the fact that it helps campers sucks but the you must do something about the camping Bubba not wreck a working perk
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What do you mean by doing something about the camping bubba? You can't save against a bubba if he's facecamping. That's the most stupid thing to do.
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Make it so he can't or won't camp camping sucks that's a fact and I'm a killer main there is a whole team of people that get paid to work on this game they should be able to come up with something to prevent camping something like you can't die on hook while face camps (just a quick idea) but make sure survs can't abuse it and boom camping gone noed used like it's supposed a high reward high loss gambling perk
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If they change this perk, at least...Something like this:
While you are on the hook Kinship activates if the killer is within x meters of your hook, the hook timer is paused for y seconds.
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Yep that could work I would say put an addition to it and say it doesn't work if another survivor is chased in the same radius for x time cause I should be able to defend my objective without losing something
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It needs to be reworked not nerfed. I do agree that it definitely should have been changed already.
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They reworked DS/ moris and keys... the only thing they did not is NOED; and those reworked were fair. It might just be a question of time before they rework NOED into a more healthy state for the mid and low mmr players (what they are trying to balance the game towards).
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NOED is actually not that OP. As said above, you can prevent it from happening before the last gen pops. Also, the killer might have trouble finding survivors, which makes it useless. It's easy to counter with the perk Small Game, which gives you a notification when you're close to a totem of any kind.
If you want to be sure NOED won't ruin your game. Equip Small Game and go look for totems when you see another survivor is on gens. You won't lose a lot of time that way. Don't go look for it when no one is on gens, because it will slow down the gameplay and you'll have trouble in the end game.
There is also a perk (not sure what the name is, but it comes from Jane) that allows you to run for 10 seconds without leaving scratch marks when you fix a gen. Normally the killer will easily find you when you fixed a gen, but with this perk, you're able to sneak away in the end game.
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I think NOED is fine the way it is.
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While NOED may not be OP, and it may not be completely unbalanced, that doesn't mean it couldn't use tweaks that would make it fairer overall.
In the grand scheme of things, this is a relatively small ask given that the killer gets a speed boost and an insta-down that lasts until the hex is found and broken. All that changes is you don't get that element of surprise anymore.
Survivors know from the moment the killer gets their third stack of devour that they're exposed. They know that when they're completely marked by Ghost Face that they're exposed. They know when they're in the terror radius for Starstruck that they're exposed. This change would just bring it in line with other abilities and perks that apply the exposed status effect.
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DS was heavily abused, it was a given it owuld get nerfed for what it did. Moris where overtunned on how fast you could kill a survivor, it was also a given it would get nerfed. Keys in the same way where overtuned allowing excesively easy escapes and bypass objectives, took a long time to do that but it was a given it would happen.
Whats so wrong with NOED? from the get go dissabling it its an objective for the survivors, something they should have been doing regularly on the trials, its not the fault of the killers that survivors have been way to lazy to do it and are just not used to, specially with the new boon totem meta wich its a hard nerf for most hexes. NOED its the only hex that "could" potentially hinder that as they will have to give up their hand holding boons and be more tactical about the posibility of a hex.
NOED still needs interaction from the killer againts the survivors, its not like it also closes the gates in the same way, and quite honestly, if you want to talk about a healty state of the game NOED its the least of their problems, boon totems are far far FAR more unhealty mechanic in the game that needs atention asap, NOED doesnt break the game, that IF it last long enought, boon totem meta makes games for the killers if midly played correctly miserable.
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"What's so wrong with noed?" You're only talking about higher mmr survivors, not low and mid mmr. Good survivors can deal with it, but that's not the case with the average players. Maybe if you played solo q a bunch and saw actual people level, you'll understand how unbalanced it is against them.
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Heres the thing...one of the most stupid things to do in competitive games its to balance it for the lowest common denominatior, sorry if it sounds mean, but its the truth. The reason the game becomes more and more complicated for the killers is exactly that, devs balance the come mechanics on new and low/mid players, wich in turn buffs the high end of the game tremendously. The game needs to be balanced acording to what high level play can do, not the other way around, but thats also the reason most games with competitive scenarios also have casual modes for all the other people, something DBD doesnt have.
Even with its low amount of modes, this is something League of Legends does right, having a ranked, random and bot modes wich allow people to play how they want, those who dont like competitive can go to random and thats it, but again, the game doesnt need to be balanced more than it already is for the lowest level of play, the only thing that that creates its dumb nerfs like those of slinger or wraith
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At high mmr the perk doesn't proc (so it should be reworked into something a killer's skill is involved), and you can't only make the game balanced around high mmr either... or you'll commercially kill the game.
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NOED is fine. I´m also often surprised by it - but hey.
Perk Small Game has a number how many totems are done and it pings when you are near and look at a totem. That´s good.
I always cleansed them because of the points (and NOED) - has changed since boons.
But to cleanse totems as you come around the map during the game is really not that hard.
If you are afraid of it - cleanse the totems by yourself. And over time you really get to learn the totem spots at the maps...
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The problem isnt the perk, the problem is the mechanics behind it.
Right now totems have little to 0 reason to be destroyed thanks to the boon meta, at high MMR survivors varely need boons as they are far more eficient than most, the problem with your comment is that IF NOED its reworked for high level MMR its going to be a nightmare to deal with at low level of game just basically buffing it more.
What it needs to be done its to create a true balance betwen keep totems and destroying them, to make them an actual tactical descicion.
If survivors want to keep the totems for boons they should pay the consequence at the end of the game (IE a way that hexes ALWAYS proc on some form), on the other hand if they decide they dont want to deal with hexes they should sacrifice the use of boons in some form, they cant make the cake and eat it.
NOED its still fine the way it is, im going to repeat it, catering to low level ranks ends giving you ridiculous nerfs like slinger and wraith, and at the same time creates an entitled player base like theres right now, a player base that IF isnt spoon feed information and easy ways out of every situation start to clamor for nerfs left and right (just look at the artist, not one day out and people where already demanding her to be nerfed to the ground because they couldnt loop her all around like ALL the other killers)
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How can NOED be fine if it overly punishes low mmr survivors and is ineffective at high mmr? That doesn't make any sense.
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Noed isn't even that powerful, but it has easily become the hardest crutch perk, and saying "do bones" is as bad as survivors saying "do boons" to the killer. New killer players think the game is impossible and survivors are OP but then chase one survivor all game and act good when their noed goes off.
Noed could do the literal same effect but it should be made to be based off of tokens similar to BBQ imo, so you play the game normal and hook each survivor once, and get rewarded with the power of noed, and it can still be done by totems. Killer has to earn it, and gets a large advantage.
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After some thoughts, i think that NOED should work like a mix of no way out and haunted grounds.
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How its overly punishing when the only thing survivors have to do its break a totem, they dont have to do a 5 minutes ritual that might fail, im going to repeat it, survivors for the most part are to lazy to care about a mechanic that should give them the reward of preventing a potential BIG thing for the killer. The mechanics behind hexes totems and boons is that needs to be changed, at the core NOED gives the killer a last chance to get kills and still has to work it on to find chase and down someone to put on a hook, i find it way more unfair that survivors are given a crutch perk like CoH wich allows them to make mistakes left and right with very little repercution to their actions.
But lets bite the fulled, how would you change it to make it fair for low level gameplay while at the same time make it rewarding and viable on high MMR
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You're only on theoritical arguments denying that it overly punishes low and mid mmr survivors, when anyone playing solo q on a regular basis can see it.
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Just as much as you on the theorical argument that its broken and needs to be changed asap, and yet im giving you reasons behind my arguments, something you havent done yet, at most you just say its unfair and needs changes, but im not reading any potential improvements from your part, something i constantly do when both of us have an argument
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I'm theoritical when i say what i see? What everyone can see when playing that role? Play a bit solo q before denying everything that i say. Stop being rude and high on your horse. Try to understand why solo q people say things, and experience them before criticizing.
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Everyone can se that survivors are busted and overcatered for the most part of the game, everyone playing the role can se that. Play a bit of killer before you denny everything i say. Se? i could use the exact same argument againts your logic and its perfectly valid, the key point is that, and "everyone" knows it, the game its more survivor sided than killer sided. The fanbase its divided in two sides, one has 4/5 of it and the rest its the other part, its obvious wich one they will give more antention as it has more money sinking potential. Now back to the topic i have played a bit but i honestly dont like survivor that much, for me its boring for the most part, but i understand the situation in general. Clamoring that NOED its unhealty for the game its quite honestly laguable. Boons are unhealty,specially CoH, safe pallets and jungle structures are unhealty, the heavy hand holding of survivors its unhealty, and this shows by the complete resistance of survivors to learn new tactics, the moment any killer that isnt loopable comes out the outcry its shown imediatly, yet most of the time you se adjustments made for survivors that are positive rather than ones made for killers, slinger and wraith are just two of this things happening. Im not being rude honestly, but im not going to sugar coat things when they need to be said bluntly, and im not in a high horse, but unless you actually have a good argument for the topic im not going to sweet it down, if you want to convince me of your ideas give me a good argument or get ready to have it critisiced and disected of why its good or bad, i have agreed with you on some topics, but like it or not many of your ideas simply arent good or to one sided or even not objectivive and just driven about what "you" belive things are. The problem you refuse to se is that at the core, the game has a lot of problems that create this situations, problems i have pointed out plenty of times and you just avoid as im guessing you have no arguments againts them, some are as an example the extreme hand holding survivors are subject to, the amount of information they are given its quite honestly ridiculous wich in turn makes survivors entitled to everything. Solo Q i will give you needs some improvements, but the answer isnt to strip down every tool and killer down to make them more "friendly" for low level players that "should" instead strive to become better and not just be allowed to cry nerf and give given watever they want to have easy games all the time
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I play killer, and what they need is good slowdown perks/ viable power without add-ons... and add-ons that improve your lethality. Not a crutch perk that only allow you to put in the ground what you've already done anyway; and is useless when you need it.
Edit: also, thank you for not denying not playing solo q on a regular basis. It puts perspective on your approach of the situation.
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I do play killer a bunch. Let me show you:
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the thing is perks shouldnt be bandaids for the basic things the game should let you do, by definition an "add" its meent to be something added to, addition of you will. Additions should be things that change the way you play, if you have ever player heroes of the storm you will se what i meen, on that game the powers you choce change the way you play, change the way power work etc. Perks on DBD should be akin to that, as an example plague its a great one, from infecting players directly, she can use an addon wich allows her to infect generators and pallets changing the dinamic of her gameplay, thats what the game needs. From a basic stand point generators shouldnt not fly the way they do, they should be designed to make it so both killer and survivors have a more engaging experience, but courently because of toolboxes, perks and so on this just breaks the flow of the game and creates a need for counter measure perks (IE generator slowdown perks).
Thats what i meent that the core of the problem isnt NOED but the mechanics behind it, if survivors are just lazy and dont want to deal with totems its their fault to be aflicted with NOED wich just becomes an extra layer of lethality for the killer, hes now faster and deadlier, but it was preventable from the get go, reason i have said mutiple times that killers should have the ability to destroy blessed totems as it adds an extra layer of tactical gameplay, killer has to measure if it wants to reduce the amount of totems to use something like NOED or stop stressing about boons.
It would be hipocritical of my side to say i play constantly as a survivor, that still doesnt prevent me from watching things from a diferent perspective, it also helps i enjoy watching stremears from time to time so i can se how things develop on the game without the need of constantly be playing the role
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At least we can agree on the fact that gen speed definitely aren't fine. Yes, killers needs tool to deal with it. I think you see NOED as one of them if i understood correctly. I do have a bias, since i play a lot of solo q... there is things i hate going against: gen slowdowns doesn't bother me but NOED is a real pain. This is why i'm never using it when i play killer (bias on my part)... and why i'm not considering it as a tool to deal with gen speed. I think this is why we couldn't understand each other; and i do apologise for being a bit stubborn.
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The problem with doing bones is that killers of varying skill ranges are aiming to eliminate one survivor as fast as possible. In a 3v1, you don't have the luxury of doing bones.
You also don't have the luxury of doing bones if you're being chased for 3 gens. Being afraid of NOED and wanting it to be fair are two very different things.
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@Viamont Given that NOED is primarily a crutch perk used to secure an endgame snowball, I'm inclined to disagree with it being fine.
Survivors aren't too lazy to do bones; they simply don't have the luxury of doing bones. Even in low MMR, killers want to eliminate one survivor as fast as possible, so they tunnel. The person being tunneled doesn't have time to do bones, and if they're solo queue there's no way for them to know if other survivors are doing bones.
Being preventable doesn't mean that survivors shouldn't know it's in play before someone gets hit with it.
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Not exactly, NOED its from my perspective an endgame high risk high reward perk, the fact it can be dennied early on the game confirms this, without totems its a wasted perk, more so that it only comes in efect at the end game IF theres totems around.
NOED isnt a must in any shape or form, from a personal perspective i havent run it a single time in all my games, im more of a direct type of player, i want my perks to afect me in the moment. I can understand why many people run them, but given im dorito head main i dont feel the need as much as other killers, but i can understand why they run it.
On the other hand i can se where are you coming from with the "need" to have it changed/nerfed, but tackling this particular perk at this particular time of the game wont fix that much as if instead whe tackled problems that are much more worrisome. From my perspective its more important to tackle things like generator speed fix and regresion and healing speed.
If generator speed its tackled, worked and rebalanced this will imediatly take away preassure from killers, taking away preassure from killers will in return make it so most (not all) will feel less preasured to tunnel and camp, less tunneling and camping will meen survivors will have (potentially) more chances to interact with the killer (something that needs heavily to be adressed, plenty of survivors have mentioned they want meanigfull secondary objectives to have something else to do aside from repair gen simulator, wich its a completly valid need from them), if the chain of needs of the game its adressed then you can adress perks and wich ones need to be tunned up and reworked.
Perks like NOED (just a single example) are a sympthom of the core problem, instead of fixing the root of it BHVR just add bandaids, this is aking to having an exposed wound with a broken bone, and instead of fixing the bone and go up to the upper layer (IE the skin) you just cover it but dont fix the problem.
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I understand where you're coming from, but i'm afraid that making gen speed more difficult (gen speed longer or add another objective) might backfire. Maybe you slowdown on the tunneling and camping if you have the upper hand against weaker survivors (thats what i do when it happens)... but i can assure you that's not the case for the majority of killers. I feel killers need built-in early game slowdown to prevent one or two gens to be completed after the first chase (if i had the choice, i'd buff corrupt to 4 gens corrupted on 7 and make it base kit).
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Yea you can prevent it while half or more of your team dies while you spend all that time looking for and cleansing totems. Almost every match I spend looking for totems half my team is either dead hook or dead by the time I get them all cleansed. All to shut down 1 perk? Not fair in my opinion. Killers should not get that much power especially in the end game.
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