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BHVR is creatively bankrupt (Wall of Text BIG read)

Hippie
Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

PLEASE BEAR IN MIND THAT THROUGHOUT THIS POST, I WILL TALK ABOUT FACTS AND MY OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS. THIS IS IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM AN "US VS THEM" OR "SURVIVORS VS KILLERS" THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK OR INSULT EACH OTHER OVER WHICH ROLE YOU PLAY IN THE VIDEO GAME.

I also would like to state that I am a relatively experienced player, with nearly 1200 hours in the game, and having been a former rank 1 Nurse and Pyramid Head main, as well as a rank 1 Survivor for many, many months as well. I speak from my own personal experience.

Note: I do not mean this topic title as a "pop-off", negative buzzword remark. I mean this as a statement--that they have completely stagnated in their content creation. I will elaborate:

BHVR and their lack of content updates for Killer gameplay

I won't speak for before I started playing DbD, but I will start from when I first played the game: beginning of November, 2019.

I'm not talking about Killers being added to the game. I'm talking about updates that affect the gameplay of every Killer in the game currently and in the future. And of those, there have been next to none. The only thing we've seen added is Breakable Walls, but we know how most people (including myself) feel about those... and I'll talk about them more later on.

Oh, and I almost forgot about Pentimento: The ONLY Killer perk that actually provides a new interaction for Killers. Sadly, the perk itself is rather gimmicky, especially in the new boon age.

Meanwhile, we've seen many things added for Survivors, especially in the form of perks that ACTUALLY modify Survivors' gameplay (as most Survivor perks do). We've also seen Boon Totems added to the game (something I enjoy using frequently), and new maps that provide more interesting loops to learn and use.

If the only way you (possibly) have fun is by succeeding, the game isn't fun

For Survivors, the best way to have fun in the game is to play with friends. I know that many players don't want to believe it, but most SWF that you see are playing to enjoy themselves and succeed at what they're doing. Be it through doing a full toolbox sabotage team, or four Head Ons, these are the ways that these players are enjoying Survivor. Solo is a little iffy, but you can still take items and perks that change up your gameplay. Not to mention that base Survivor gameplay can actually be challenging--be it planning your route of escape to buy time for your teammates, looping obstacles effecively for the same purpose, and more. Heck, even knowing which pallets to use and not to use still contributes to the challenge!

But for Killer, it gets a little more tricky. The purpose of Killer is to kill the Survivors... lorewise and gameplay wise. That should be the "fun" in the video game, right? But to do that, the best option for many players is to camp Survivors who are on the hook (to either grab the rescuer or secure a kill) or tunnel the recently unhooked Survivor in order to get a faster down and re-hook (since they are injured off-hook). These things are actually very smart to do (if done correctly) if you want to complete your objective and "have fun", but in reality they are contributing to player frustration and stale gameplay. And I'm talking about player frustration on the Killer side, not Survivor!

Camping a hooked Survivor (not facecamping, just proxy) is BORING. I speak this from experience! It turns the supposedly aggressive and proactive gameplay of Killer into a passive style of play where you wait for Survivors to initiate the interaction. And worst of all, Survivors have perks that counter this style of play, to where your efforts to secure a kill can easily be foiled and the Killer is left with nothing. Not to mention that Survivors have many perks that, while fun for Survivors themselves, lessen the experience for Killer greatly.

In regard to this, it's no wonder that many, many Killer players and mains are typically angry, apathetic or depressive. The gameplay aspect that "fun" hinges on for Killers can easily be snatched away from them. But what about when Killers succeed at what they're doing, and get 2, 3 and even 4ks regularly? Well, aside from the people who are newer to the game or play infrequently, even these victories feel hollow. Again, I speak from my own experience. And I feel that I'm not wrong in assuming this about many other players, due to the amount of complaints and sad feels posts I see, here and on Steam.

And yes, that could be attributed to how people can just be whiny in general, or feel entitled to win, but knowing the nature of the game I would say that is only part of the issue... maybe 30%.

Most Killers are not actually fun to play

This might be an odd statement, but I believe that if the fun of using a Killer's power is from the effect it has on Survivors, then it really isn't fun. What this means is that if you are unable to effectively use your power on Survivors, or it fails in it's desired effect, then you end up not having fun at all... which leads to frustration. Many Killers are this way--if you don't land a hit on a Survivor with a Huntress hatchet, for example, are you having fun using her power? If Survivors don't step on Hag traps or instead burn them with flashlights, are you having fun with her power?

Killer powers should be interesting. They should be fun to use and actually provide entertainment to the Killer, rather than just the Survivor. If anything, Killer feels like a gameplay mechanic for Survivors, rather than a role of their own being controlled by a player.

This year's Winter event lacking Killer content

There really was NO reason whatsoever for this event to have zero Killer content. Outside of Killers interacting with Survivors who are interacting with the snowmen, there was basically nothing for Killers this event. Very disappointing, to say the least. But, then again, this isn't too surprising to me concerning my topic title. It also highlights how Killers lack base mechanics that involve interesting gameplay, and thus lack the vehicles for new and meaningful event mechanics.

BREAKABLE WALLS

They suck. I don't know what I was expecting when they added them to the game with Dead Dawg Saloon, but it certainly wasn't what we got. As I said in a forum post earlier today, having to spend over thirty seconds "preparing" the saloon building just to be able to effectively chase Survivors in it is not "gameplay". It's garbage. The only map that they were implemented semi-well was The Game.

With the base mechanic of breakable walls, we had an opportunity to have something actually interesting added to the game. Something like a door rather than breakable wall, where Survivors could open the door to enable a better loop but Killers could shut it and make the loop unsafe. SOMETHING! But no. We got to break pallets (such fun) without Survivors dropping them in the first place. Not to mention that this is the only "gameplay" update we've gotten for Killers since I started playing. This ties in with my belief that BHVR has really run out of creative steam.

Random emphases on competitive play, while maintaining the party aspect of the game

I don't really have too much to say here. It just seems that DbD is supposed to be a party game (4v1, SWF, e.t.c.) but also acts like a competitive game, with MMR now being a part of the game. I don't quite understand what they're going for, but it just ends up being a game where you're made to feel like you have to win but at the same time aren't meant to. This in turn contributes greatly to player frustration on both sides.

BHVR stated themselves that the perfect balance it 2k, 2 escape. This literally means that two Survivors are expected to die every game, despite their best efforts. And it means that Killers are expected to only get two kills per game, despite their best efforts. Very strange. It kinda makes you believe that the game is meant to be competitive, but then SWF exists, throwing it back into the party game territory.

Playing with friends in nearly every other game that supports it doesn't necessarily mean party game, as everyone is on a level playing field. But with SWF in DbD, it becomes a party game for the Survivors and a competitive game for the Killer. This disparity also has a hand in making Killer a more frustrating experience due to you having to play competitively to have a chance at success and the SWF playing around but succeeding due to the inherent advantage of communication and perk synergies.

To add to this, some would say "well, if you play it casually and infrequently, as party games should be played, then you wouldn't get frustrated at the video game. The game isn't your life, don't treat it as such". Of course, the last part is true, and you would think the first part is true as well, but it's not. The game is grindy--you're pressured to level up your characters and unlock perks from other characters in order to enjoy the character you want to play. And to do that, you have to play... a LOT.

So, if you want to enjoy what the game has to offer in terms of perks, addons and offerings (and Killers themselves), you have to play quite a bit. And it's gets old pretty fast, if you're actually trying to earn points. Which, for Survivors means escaping for a fatty 5k, and for Killers it means making the game last as long as possible... which means you have to prioritize perks that increase your chances of survival vs tunnelling and camping and perks that extend the game as long as possible, respectively. The emphasis is moved from fun to the DbD Player Grindset™.

Perks being used as a crutch/bandaid for boring, unenjoyable gameplay

As I said previously, tunnelling and camping are very effective strategies for succeeding at the objective. However, these things are very boring and unenjoyable for Survivors to face, as it cuts their gameplay short--so in turn they take perks that enable them to succeed against these strategies.

Same for Killer--prioritizing generators is a very effective strategy for Survivors to succeed at their objective. However, again, this is very boring and unenjoyable for Killers to face as it also cuts their gameplay short. So, Killers also take perks that enable them to succeed against these strategies.

However, both of these issues from both sides (prioritizing gens and tunnel/camp) highlight a glaring issue in game design--it's just... poorly designed. Map sizes vary too wildly for most Killers to patrol effectively, and certain Killers are far better at camping and tunnelling than others. Players on both sides feeling forced to take perks to deal with certain gameplay situations screams poor game design and lack of meaningful content and mechanics to make the core gameplay "fun" without emphasizing escaping or 4k.

Survivors are NOT the enemy: The actual reason Killers get frustrated easily and want to quit

I know this isn't directly related to the topic title, but I just wanted to say it. Survivors playing the game, using their items and perks (including "sweaty" perks like Dead Hard) and even using map offerings... there's nothing wrong with any of it. Survivors are acting well within the confines of the game itself, and are only using the resources that have been provided. Even things like crouching and non-macro flashlight clicking are not "toxic", but are simply BM (bad manners).

And same for Killers as well... Killers using their powers, addons and perks are not "evil" (well, maybe not in the player interaction aspect... the Killers themselves are pretty bad!). Again, even things like hitting on the hook or nodding/shaking head at Survivors is only BM.

What I'm saying is Survivors "bming" the Killer and using in-game mechanics like bodyblocking, flashlight saving and prioritizing generators is not toxic. It doesn't mean Survivors are trying to sabotage your fun, either... they are just playing the game.

The reason that Killers get frustrated easily is... because Killer gameplay is extremely simple. WASD to move, left click to swing weapon, right click to use power and space bar to do everything else (and the controller equivalents for all of these). Some Killers have the ability to use CTRL, but they are usually only necessary for using the Killers' M2 powers (in the case of Pig, Pyramid Head and Artist). You could say that in other games, the gameplay can also be simplified down to "click, move around, jump, e.t.c.", but even in a game like Call of Duty where gameplay could almost be simplified to that, there are so many other things going on, so many things to be aware of and react to that it just isn't that simple.

I don't know how to explain it properly, but in essence (due to its extreme simplicity) Killer gameplay is boring. Once you grasp the basics of Killer gameplay, it almost becomes a walking simulator with occasional clicking and pressing spacebar. Killers' powers effectively become "which power is best at killing Survivors", rather than "which power is most fun to use", and this goes against what is supposed to make the game "fun", which is enjoying the Killer that you're playing.

Conclusion

I apologize for the long (L O N G) read, and if you read all of it or even part of it then thank you and I hope it was interesting to you! I do understand if you don't read of course. It's a lot.

I just had a lot of things to talk about in regard to the game and wanted to lump them into one post under my ultimate concern, which is that BHVR is seemingly creatively bankrupt. I also know that I was probably all over the place, but it's hard to format that many points in the right order... 😶

DbD needs something. Not new Killers... it needs new mechanics. New objectives. Right now, and for quite some time, it feels like BHVR has gotten cozy in the repetitive and comfortable nature of their current Killer role design. Put out new Killer, give them reskinned power from other Killer, or power that renders other Killer inferior and get $$$.

Even with Ringu coming up in a couple months, it doesn't matter if the core gameplay stays the same... which it probably will. We need changes that affect ALL Killers, not just a pretty new power for one out of 26(27 with Ringu). At this point, even Propnight (despite being a blatant rip-off of most of DbD's mechanics and buggy all to heck) looks like a more interesting and fun experience.

I want DbD to succeed, not in attracting temporary players who quit after a month or less, but in building a healthy playerbase that actually enjoys the game and isn't addicted to it like a street drug. The community is currently full of very frustrated and angsty players and I understand all of it. The game does something to people, and it's not healthy! With it being 4v1, all emphasis should be placed on party, and the fun should come from what you're doing, not how it affects other players (especially in regard to Killers' powers). But in the end, I doubt anything will change--after all, BHVR is a company, and companies want $$$.

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Comments

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Thank you for your comment! And no, I've only ever watched one Scott Jund video, and that was last year (his pregame warmup idea)... 😛

  • Vampwire
    Vampwire Member Posts: 709

    Very well put. The game definitely needs something to actually shake it up. Unfortunately I think DBD is in a state of no return with many of the perks being band aid fixes and core design problems.

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Thank you for your positive response! And exactly. I doubt they would change anything, especially when much-needed core gameplay changes wouldn't put money in their pockets like DLCs and cosmetics do. Sadly, their best course of action for the $$$ is to keep pumping the game full of paid content and let it go as long as it can.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531

    I can agree with most of these. DBD’s simplicity is its greatest strength and weakness

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,716

    Dunno what it is....maybe an attitude shift, but I've been having an extremely fun time as of late.

  • Zozzy
    Zozzy Member Posts: 4,759

    Another jund fan. 🙄

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    It is pretty wild that he apparently posted a video RIGHT before I made my topic, but no, I don't watch him at all! I literally haven't watched him since May 9th, 2020! Before forum user Seth told me about that, I had no idea. Uncanny!

    I've just been having these thoughts for some time now, and I even had them last year before I quit playing until July of this year.

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Well, that's good! I have fun occasionally myself, but it doesn't change the facts about the game for me... 😛 It could just be so much more.

  • AnObserver
    AnObserver Member Posts: 747

    Yep.

    Killer should have a base-kit Mori that promotes targeting other Survivors (so the default target priority logic of: "Do I go for the Healthy or Injured Survivor" has more than one option. (Don't take DS into consideration, that's the problem with the Perk and Tunneling in general)

    Bloodlust could seriously be reworked into something more interesting than just a minor speedboost.

    A Method to quickly traverse from one end of the map to another to allow all Killers to approach from different angles/get out from corners quickly (a la Pacman or something).

    If Survivors have Boons for area Control Perks, give Killer Barrels for area Control Perks.

    Seriously what is up with the Glyphs in the Tomes, why haven't they been included in any Perk yet?


    Goddamn I wish they would at least open some discourse on their proposed changes. Ask what we would like to see. They've been saying: "Oh we'll implement Mori's into base-kit", but we've heard jack from them so far. Was that Key change really what they were planning all along?


    Why did they announce The Ring collab so early?

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Interesting suggestions! I'm thinking more something that actually changes Killer mechanically, but those are definitely neat ideas.

    And about the Ringu collab... I think they did something similar with the Resident Evil chapter. Maybe leakers are a little too talented these days, and they're worried about a leak? Very strange, for sure!

  • AnObserver
    AnObserver Member Posts: 747

    Like being able to cancel Pallet breaks for a fake-out rather than just the current look downward fake-out? Or something more significant?

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Hmm... that would be neat, but I'm thinking something like more buttons to press than just WASD and spacebar, or different ways to interact with the environment than just breaking generators and pallets. I just dislike how rudimentary current Killer gameplay is and would like to see it be something more interactive and engaging.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,783

    I believe OP is talking about adding new dimensions to Killer gameplay.

    For instance, it would be like adding in NPC Killers and NPC Survivors who can also interact and vibe in the match. (Note, not a real suggestion, just an example of the sort of "gameplay changes" I think the OP is talking about)

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  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,783

    I must be fair.

    Mandy has raised issues with the team over certain issues noted in that thread and many have been fixed.

    Does this excuse their blatant disregard of the promise they made years ago? Absolutely not.

    But it is important to give credit where it is due.

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  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,783

    That ding noise you hear when you infect someone?

    That's a clock tower and it signals that you are being teleported backwards through time.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,768


    I think scott makes videos based off forum posts. basically he looks at your post and than makes a video about it, just like he made a video on lightborn.......

    I think your post title does not match what your post is talking about. The title makes you think that the post is about BVHR having no creative process for killers while your post is talking about killer's being unfun to play with list of reasons.

    I would say that the survivors desire for challenge in current dbd is at an all time low and survivors currently control for how challenging the killers are to win. As such, all the killers are either watered down on release and the ones from past releases are being watered down slowly. Their killer ideas are not awful from gameplay stand-point but they're watered down too much for killers to notice their actions with their ability to have any impact on outcome of the match.

    My advice is to wait for mid-chapter updates in 2022 and see if the game for killer is more fun for you by the end of the year. If it is not, you can take Matt's advice to play civ 5.

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  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,783

    bro ######### true that holy #########

    Someone needs to tell BHVR to tone that sound way the ######### down.

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  • AnObserver
    AnObserver Member Posts: 747

    Like... What? I'm all for it but so far, I have yet to really see anyone suggest anything, just a general "Yeah they should do sumfin'"

    I know I'd like to see spreading Hooks be rewarded with base-kit Mori's.

    The ability for Killers to pac-man across different sides of the map to approach survivors from different angles after Hooking a Survivor (in some manner).

    Hell, I've made suggestions about using the Barrels as some kind of zone-control useable by both Killer/Survivor, Self-care when in Survivor control and Whispers when in Killer control (though that has kinda been taken over by Boons as Perks).


    What do you want to see, what in-game interactions? (Or is it purely new keybinds?)

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Hmm... I listed many reasons why BHVR has no creative process for Killers. Things like Hex: Pentimento being the first Killer perk to add a new interaction for Killers, yet it is pretty gimmicky and mostly useless; Breakable Walls being the only map-gameplay mechanic added for Killers yet they are also a rather useless (and rather detrimental) addition to the game; The fact that many Killers' enjoyment relies on successfully using their power against Survivors, rather than just using it in general, meaning that you are essentially providing entertainment for Survivors rather than for yourself; and the fact that Killer gameplay consists of walking simulator with occasional clicks and spacebar presses.

    My problem is not that Killers are weak or easy to play against, it's that Killers' powers are either copies of other Killers' powers or are too dependent on successful use to actually be fun to play. For instance, I actually enjoy playing Billy when I play Killer because his power is fun to use. It's not dependent on successfully hitting the target--I just like zooming around the map and being mobile. But a Killer like Huntress is a massive drag for me, because the fun of her power is dependent on hitting Survivors with it, rather than just using it in the first place.

    I'm basically saying that it's evident to me that BHVR ran out of Killer ideas a long time ago. Heck, the last "unique" Killer we got was Pinhead, but even then his power was basically spelled out from the movie for BHVR and all they had to do was implement it. Not much creative thought needed, just technical. Before that was Pyramid Head, and he really was the last mechanically unique Killer we've received since (besides Twins, but they were implemented so poorly that it doesn't even count). But besides that, new and flashy Killer powers don't mean anything when the core gameplay is still mechanically deficient in actual skill and challenge. We need changes that affect every Killer in the game, like through new mechanics such as jumping or doors that can be interacted with. SOMETHING!

    Survivor is infinitely more enjoyable because of the mechanical intensity of the role's gameplay. Yes, you still have to repair generators which is the most boring part of Survivor, but you also have to flee the Killer and waste as much of their time as possible, which is already more than Killer just botting after you hoping you make a mistake. Not to mention that Survivor has many, many other tools at their disposal to spice up their gameplay; things like items, perks that give you new interactions (Dead Hard, Head On, Flashbang, Repressed Alliance, e.t.c.) and many other actions to do like healing, unhooking, saving teammates with flashlight or pallet, totem touching and so on.

    My point is that Killer feels like a prop... like an A.I. for the Survivors to interact with to spice up their gameplay. Not a player playing the enemy role in the video game.

  • AnObserver
    AnObserver Member Posts: 747

    So let’s expand upon this, doors..

    What comes to mind when you think about them being used by the Killer?

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Hehe, well it's kinda just a suggestion. I'm not EXACTLY sure how they would be implemented, but I'm thinking something like this:

    The doors would start out shut and the areas that the doors were present would create unsafe loops for Survivors, to the Killer's advantage. Survivors could open the door (5 second interaction or so?) with the chest opening animation (lock on the door). Opening the door would create a better loop for Survivors. However, the Killer can shut the door again (1-2 second interaction?) and recreate the unsafe loop.

    I really have no idea but it just popped in my head due to my disgust with breakable walls. I guess in the end, I wish DbD was quite different mechanically. Something that allowed for more carnage, but the emphasis wasn't on killing the Survivors--rather just making them suffer quite a bit, while everyone earned plenty of BP and had fun using their perks and Killer powers and you weren't on such a time crunch. The current game design is a drag. And no, I don't say that because I'm burnt out or anything--it's just that the game has been the same for ***5 YEARS*** and it's supposed to be a "living game" (according to BHVR)... but I guess that means paid DLC and cosmetics. R.I.P.

  • AnObserver
    AnObserver Member Posts: 747

    So excluding the pre-setup for Survivors of opening the doors (perhaps too similar to Killers scouting out breakable walls at the start of the Trial), it seems to be you’re interested in a method for Killers to create an obstacle for Survivors in strong loops, a “Killer Pallet”?

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    That sounds about right! I just want SOMETHING new for Killers to interact with...

    I just don't see it being too bad for Survivors, since they already have a good amount of free time at the start of a Trial. And I wouldn't mind interacting with them as Survivor, either. Always enjoying something new to do that isn't breaking pallets that haven't even been dropped by Survivors (breakable walls)... 😶

  • bluedusef
    bluedusef Member Posts: 288

    i have been slowly more and more starting to lose interest with DBD. my playtime has become less and less and the past few patches really rubbed the salt into the wounds for me. SBMM, the horrible map designs they keep coming out with that have OP as ######### main buildings with lots of windows with Breakable walls with multiple god pallets = very uninteresting to play.

    the new perks that have been brought into the game which allow survivors to remove certain playstyles from killers indefinetly with no caps on them. BOONS. so survivors can use boons as much as they want in the game, but if a killer brings a hex totem, no matter what it is, u have 1 chance in the game before its gone forever. or u use 2 perks so it lasts slightly longer while again survivors can do it as much as they want. not really fair at all.......

    SBMM has made games even more sweaty then ever and killers are not even bothering with slowdowns anymore, just use endgame perks and hope for the best ( NOED used more often now ). the game is over after the first chase at high levels, there is nothin u can do as killer. i play SOLO survivor always and killers because of the SBMM are now taking games very seriously and im getting tunneled even more than before.

    while some small things have changed and for the good, i feel like they keep making more and more changes that are making the game worse overall the past year or so and there is just a lack of communication i feel like. I mean they will make changes which nobody has asked for or dosent really make sense to alot of people.


    i try to enjoy the game but after 1 or 2 matches i feel like switching games.........

  • CyberDragoon656
    CyberDragoon656 Member Posts: 960

    So keep trying to have fun as killer until the end of 2022 when they have had years of trying to make it balanced?

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    "It's just BM it isn't toxic" is a completely meaningless statement. Bad manners for the sake of bad manners, done repeatedly, is toxic, otherwise it wouldn't be BM in the first place. Doing unpleasant and rude things to other people is basically the entire foundation of it.

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    My point is that BMing someone in the video game is not toxic, as it does not affect the mechanics of the game in any way, shape or form. And besides that, are the same Survivors crouching at you or the same Killers hitting you on the hook game after game? It's always different players, therefore it isn't ongoing, therefore it is not toxicity. It's literally just people being rude... like people are when they're pleased with themselves in every single multiplayer game.

    Not to mention that every other multiplayer game in existence has teabagging... on your body. Heck, people on R6: Siege shoot your body repeatedly after they kill you when the round is over. Same on Halo Infinite. Survivors crouching at a Killer from the safety of the gate is nothing compared to people actually killing you in the video game and then teabagging your corpse. And even that is only done to get a rise out of the player, which if you're not bothered by it is useless. At least with Survivors in the gate, you can walk toward them and make them leave, which only takes a few seconds. And even with the Killer hitting you on the hook, you can either let the Entity take you or watch some YouTube.

    In-game actions that affect mechanical gameplay and actually impede someone's ability to enjoy the video game are toxic, as well as endgame chat. Survivors celebrating in the exit gate or Killers celebrating their victory with some smacks is not toxic. It has no bearing on your actual gameplay.

  • AnObserver
    AnObserver Member Posts: 747
    edited December 2021

    I mean the closet thing that I could think of with regards to a "Killer Pallet" is being able to use Bloodlust to permanently "Bamboozle" Vaults/Doorways with clearable entity creep that forces slow vaults from Survivors and speeds up Killer vaults. (Press the Killer Power Button while Vaulting an obstacle with Bloodlust to apply Entity creep to consume Bloodlust and creep the Vault)

    edit: Of course, Bloodlust should probably be reworked so that it's more accessible in shorter chases and not reliant on a single chase being long. (But that would probably remove the haste effect from Bloodlust in favor of being able to block Vaults/doorways, bloodlust itself becoming a kind of "Exhaustion" Perk for Killers. One might increase movespeed at the cost of only accruing in chase, default one could apply entity creep, another could make it so that the Killer is able to become undetectable for a time (EG: a reworked Beast of Prey))

  • psionic
    psionic Member Posts: 670

    I completely agree with all you said.

    But I like to express my very personal point of view about the current state of the game/killer role.

    I think nothing is gonna change, for real. BHVR is not gonna innovate regarding killer gameplay. To me is clearly that they don't have a precise understanding of the killer role (at least is not the same as the community's understanding), as some decisions have fluctuated through time and many are contraditory till today. Instead, they understand precisely the survivor role and at least this is a good thing. They know what survivors need and which path they need to follow.

    Meanwhile, DbD is a 5 years game. I want to say their intent now is to maintain the game alive and I do believe BHVR is working on new big projects that are different from DbD.

    So what we have now, probably is what we will have for tomorrow.

    ps: sorry my broken english

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    That sounds interesting... I'm not sure how that would play out in games but it would be neat to try. And yeah, Bloodlust is useless right now. I rarely get to even the first tier of Bloodlust in my games, and if I do a gen usually pops somewhere on the map. They definitely need to do something with it.

    Which also reminds me... why don't they use the PTB for anything except midchapters and DLCs? Why don't they use it to test out different ideas with the community, and award people with things like BP or Shards for testing new features? They keep saying they've tested anti-facecamping measures several times but to no avail, but I would like to actually see those anti-facecamping measures and let the community test them out themselves. I don't really trust BHVR too much to know what's an actual good feature to add to the game... they could have possibly passed up on some good ones in their own testing bubble.

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    Thank you for your support! And no worries, I understand you perfectly.

    And exactly that, I completely agree that they're (99% certain) not going to change anything. They've gotten too cozy in their Killer design recipe and it probably wouldn't be cost-effective for them to actually change the game in meaningful ways, mechanically. I am definitely glad that Survivor is as mechanically intensive as it is however, and they're able to come up with new perks and mechanics for the role. It's just sad that Killer, the title role of the game and the one that should be getting equal (if not more) love than Survivor, has stagnated so badly.

    I'm sure they're pretty cozy in their formula of paid DLCs and cosmetics for however long the game will last, though. Such a shame.

  • JeanCharpentier
    JeanCharpentier Member Posts: 370

    It has been years that many players here have stated that the game is boring and frustrating. Many call it gen simulator or camp/tunnel fest.

    Dunno why some ppl say you came to this conclusion after looking a video... we all agree about the terrible DbD state.

    Check at Propnight, it's DbD without the broken stuff, really.

  • ElusivePukka
    ElusivePukka Member Posts: 1,599
    edited December 2021

    This is one of the most dishonest, myopic takes I've seen on the forums. Well done.

    BMing, by definition, is toxicity. You can't pretend otherwise when BM is "bad manners, esp. intentionally obnoxious behaviours" and toxicity is "interpersonally abusive behaviours" - they don't have to have a mechanical effect, their entire point is to irritate the other player or gloat.

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    I'm sorry you think so, but crouching toward the Killer or hitting a Survivor on the hook are not severe enough to be labelled "toxic" in my opinion.

    Toxic is telling someone to unalive themselves in endgame chat. Toxic is cheating and holding a game hostage until players are forced to disconnect. Toxic is not pressing CTRL repeatedly to hurt the Killer's feelings, or left clicking a Survivor on the hook--it may be irritating or a little frustrating, but it is not toxicity. It's only when people read into these actions and think they are reflections of themselves as a person that they start affecting them so negatively.

    And I am being extremely honest in my take. I don't appreciate undermining and insulting my opinion, no matter how much you disagree. If you want people to see where you're coming from or understand/agree what you're saying, it's best not to insult them in the process.

  • ElusivePukka
    ElusivePukka Member Posts: 1,599

    Contextual and connotative definitions exist, sorry to burst your bubble. Impact trumps intent in interpersonal actions, whether you want to admit that or not. Your opinion is yours, but sorry: not all opinions are valid.

  • kokoroo83
    kokoroo83 Applicant Posts: 18

    why are you saying survivor is fun? its not... at least not for thel last couple of years. why? same reason as for killer. nothing to spice it up; its just the same thing over and over again. i hate doing gens to the point i just try to lure the killer because its so obnoxious. they don't add anything fun to the game a new killer u barely see.. a new map that's just the same loops and pallets. nothing interactive to make it more fun. its boring. and i play ALOT less than i used to. btw 1200 hours is not experienced. by a long shot, thi game is 6 years old.

  • Hippie
    Hippie Member Posts: 1,003

    I think my point is that DbD really is the only game that I've seen players get so offended over someone gloating in the game. I think because of some odd mentality with Killer players thinking that Survivors are beneath them, when they're actually just other players in the video game? I'm not sure.

    It's never been called toxicity in other games. Because it's not. I stick with my provided examples of toxicity--they are actually detrimental to the game and very frustrating to deal with. Survivors crouching for ~5 seconds in the exit gate, something the Killer has complete control over by being able to force them out, is not toxic.

    Not to mention; you've provided a definition of a toxic gamer. I've crouched at the Killer plenty of times before (usually if they're tunnelling or camping throughout the game) and I've also given some smacks to hooked Survivors. But I'm not a toxic gamer at all. I'm actually very friendly in my games, never have a bad attitude and always try to give a ggwp in endgame chat. I just enjoy celebrating a victory here and there. Being a toxic gamer and toxic actions are two completely seperate things... and you can crouch at the Killer or smack a Survivor on the hook without being toxic. Because it isn't toxic. It's purely the way people handle these actions that determines their effectiveness.

  • ElusivePukka
    ElusivePukka Member Posts: 1,599
    edited December 2021

    You obviously haven't been exposed to LoL or WoW players - those communities codify this issue :P

    And again, like I said: impact trumps intent. It doesn't matter if you're intending to be a dick, but if you're received as malicious through the voiceless medium of the game: guess what, that's your impact; you're essentially arguing the same thing I am, but choosing to pretend objectivity exists in something determined subjectively.

    Being a "toxic gamer" is being a toxic player, and vice versa, regardless of your personal definitions, proclivities, or preferences.