Dear Devs: If You Alter 'Camping'...
Then you have to alter gen speeds in the same patch. Not before (this is unfair to Survivors), not after (this would render Killer unplayable), but the SAME. EXACT. PATCH.
This is not an us/them, or give-and-take demand.
Think about it: If hooks teleport, or whatever other idea, and Killers are now consistently forced to 12-hook, and gen-speeds are STILL sub-5-minutes? Killers will never get more than 1.5-2 kills, ever. ANd that's if they are GOOD.
Also think about this: If Killers are forced to 12 hook, or punished for camping, or the hooks teleport (etc. etc.) and this prevents the Killer from getting a kill in the EGC? You know; EGC; The time when camping that hooked person is literally all a Killer has left, since exit gates are open?
Killers will leave in droves.
You will have rendered Killer all but impossible to ever enjoy again.
Ever Killer I've ever talked too has said this about camping:
- 'I camp because I feel pressured after 2-3 gens pop in the first chase'. This about that; a Killer has hooked 1 Survivor once; a 1/4 or 1/12th of his objective. While Survivors have completed 2/6th aka 1/3rd (If you count 'open gates as an obective) to 3/6th, or 1/2, of their objectives.
Again; The Killer has achieved 1/12th to, at best, 1/4 of his objectives (If every Survivor dies on 1st hook). To the Survivors 1/3rd to ONE HALF of theirs.
Killers: 1/12 or 1/4
Survivors: 1/3 or 1/2
That's the 'time crunch' that makes Killers feel forced to camp first hook.
It's boring for us, too. I know I'd rather be chasing, but if I chase, and get 3 hooks total, and then Survivors twerk and insult me? I just feel more pressured to GET THAT KILL ASAP next match. To prevent that steamroll from happening again.
So please; If/when you fix 'camping', just keep in mind that most of camping is because gens are TOO DAMN FAST.
Sure; Survivors feed campers, but we have no way of knowing that when we first camp in a new match. We start doing it because of time crunch.
So when you fix 'camping', just fix gen speeds along with it, or there probably won't be many Killers left who enjoy getting 1 kill & insulted every match.
Comments
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You can pretty fine get 4ks without camping at all.
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I 4k as Clown with no perks/add ons with haddonfield offering all the time at top mmr.
Git gud scrubs.
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You don't need to camp, just be a boss gamer and run noed.
Camping gets talked about a lot because why work hard for the fabled 2k 2e when you get a guaranteed free incontestable 1k with a single Down as bubba? It makes us honest killers look like complete idiots when we play normally and struggle to get 1k after spreading out hooks
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What gen speeds?
You guys still having trouble chasing 1 person for too long?
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I'm sorry that my 20 second chase times aren't good enough anymore.
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I can almost guarantee a 2k at least by camping as Bubba.
And I only need to win 2 chases.
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Also, on the flip side, this 1/12 argument is bullshit, as I know very few killers that go for 12 hooks.
They camp u to second and tunnel you out of the game.
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Someone did not read the post.
The post is not that camping does this or that; The post is what people expect if camping is 'fixed'. IE: If the Killer is FORCED to 12 hook after a 'fix', and how it's affected by current gen speeds.
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Bloody hell, People:
My post is not about how viable camping is NOW. It's about the state of the game after a theoretical fix, and how gen speeds will HAVE to be altered as well, if Survivors expect a fix to make Killers 12 hook.
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I love how people always Say ######### like this as if others don't watch others and streamers struggle to squeeze out a kill or 2 all the time
All the games you see on YouTube of people stomping survivors is hand picked they probably had 10 games right before that one were they got stomped
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Not according to those of us who do not camp and get at least 9 hooks.
You aren't meant to hook 12 times every single match. At some point you will meet your match.
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Behavior has a fine line to walk here. Make the gens take too long and survivor matches become boring m1 simulators. Make gen speeds to fast and killers feel they can't "win".
But here's the thing tunnelling and camping need to be destroyed as strategies. The game needs to be balanced so that those strategies aren't the easiest way to achieve "victory". The only danger to this game is anything that threatens fun, tunnelling and camping are cancer to fun. They are the worst. Survivors need better tools to protect themselves from these scenarios. Killers need tools to pressure gens, being invincible 1v1 isn't enough, killers win chases and lose matches all the time, so the answer can't be to make them loop harder.
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I think there's a similar problem shared between survivors and killers in that the most effective strategy is the one with the least interaction possible.
For killers, this is in tunnelling and camping. But an under-recognised problem with generators is the co-op penalty. -15% repair speed per other survivor on the same gen accomplishes something it really shouldn't: It makes the safest way to do gens the fastest one.
A killer can only pressure one gen at a time, so having all survivors split up on separate gens makes their job significantly harder. But that is just flat-out the best way because it rewards the most progress per second for survivors.
The co-op penalty needs to be changed from -15% per survivor to +15% if there's more than one survivor on a gen, in addition to changing base gen time from 80 to 110. That way, a pair working on a gen is, IIRC, .3 seconds slower than under the current circumstances. This creates a dynamic choice for survivors: Do we spread out and take it slow, but safe, or do we bundle up and risk the killer disrupting us really badly if they find us?
This'd make pressuring gens much more manageable and would make downing and hooking a survivor put a bigger dent in survivor progress. There would need to be some other adjustments, of course, notably Prove Thyself and Discordance, but I think it's an overall workable solution to give killers more breathing room.
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I'm not saying I expect to 12 hook every match.
I'm going off the idea that 'camping' needs to be fixed/removed, which will probably FORCE Killers to 12 hook if they want a 4K.
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Camping should never be the only move you do as Killer. And I think BHVR is about to bring the hammer down on those who do that.
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You do realize that -15% is AFTER the second player's gen-speed buff is added?
IE: It's not 1 Survivor -15% for another Survivor. it's 1 Survivor + 1 Survivor - 15%. Or Survivors would never group up.
And you want to, what? Change it to a +15% boost? On top of the flat boost 2 Survivors working gets? Did I read that right?
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But the developers haven't even mentioned having to be forced to hook someone 12 times in order to get a 4k. So I am not sure where that idea originated from.
The problem with Camping is not everyone is using it as a 'tactic'. Many of the players who use it just want to use it as a form of BM. So for me, that is one element that needs to change.
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So, it will come in the patch that bans tbagging or clicking, right?
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Ok, let me try again.
The theory is that, if camping were altered/punished/fixed, so it cannot happen, then Survivors get more unhooks.
Which means Killers are forced to 4 hook each Survivor, in theory. Because they can't camp to confirm kills. This does not take into account Survivors not unhooking. Or Survivors killing themselves on 1st or 2nd hook.
So if Survivors can unhook more, it's not a far reach to think that a 4K will require 12 hooks more often.
And if and if 3 hooks per Survivor is the new norm after a 'fix' to camping; then Gen speeds will need to be looked at at the same time. Or the game becomes unwinnable for all but Otz-level Killers.
It's all theorycrafting and a warning to not just look at 'camping' in a vacuum, like some Survivors want to do.
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I read it, but the math is all wrong.
You can't force people to 12 hook, every killer that has sniffed high ranks knows this is a recipe for a loss.
I don't put a lot of weight into the devs fixing camping. As many of us have been waiting on QoL fixes for this game for years.
But if we are to balance this game, and eliminate camping and tunneling, then no doubt they will have to adjust something on survivor side.
I'll be out here camping with Bubba because it is new to me and I am enjoying the shiggles. 2k minimal!
P. S., survivors run DS for God's sake.
BT ain't gonna help you here.
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I still dream of the gen rework that’ll allow changes to camping and tunneling. And allow changes to slowdown and second chance perks.
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Yes, I do realise that. That's why I said -15% per -other- survivor, not per survivor.
Yes, I want to change it to a flat +15% boost, after increasing base gen time from 80 seconds to 110, which you missed. And there is no flat boost to two survivors working on the same gen. Both survivors operate at 85% efficiency, they don't both work at 170%, if that was what you were thinking.
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The way I always saw it was kind of like this (And I suck with numbers. I think I actually have number dyscalculia):
1 Survivor: 100%
2 Survivors: 200% (100% for each Survivor) - 15%
Etc.
IE: It took the speed of 2 Survivors, and removed 15% from that. Am I reading your idea right in that you instead want:
1 Survivor: 100%
2: Survivors: +15%
3 Survivors: +15% AFTER the first boost (So it's not a flat +30%)?
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I guess it depends on how they nerf camping, how hard they nerf it, and if they nerf proxy camping as well.
I do agree that gen speeds would probably need to be looked at as well, in the same patch. Or some form of second objective, because no one actually wants longer gen times.
The problem though is that we do have killers with their certain builds that can keep up with even the best of survivors, and that without camping. So if survivors objective times get increased, those killers will also need to be nerfed a bit. Nurse and Blight are the main candidates here.
But the deeper you go, the more you realise how much more needs to be balanced. There is a huge balance gap between the most survivor sided and killer sided map for example. A second objective will in this case also just shift the balance of maps a bit more towards killer.
This game's balance sadly is just a bit of a mess.
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It's not 200% - 15%. Both survivors incur the penalty, so they both lose 15%, making it 200% - 30% = 170%.
This is why survivors split up on gens, and why groups of three are non-existent. Three survivors make 300% - 3 x 30% = 210%. That third survivor is effectively adding only 40% speed.
My suggestion is a partial inversion. Fully inverting it would be broken, even with the baseline gen time increase, but if a 2-man co-op was 200% + 2 x 15% = 230%, it'd break even with the base gen time increase.
Then a 3-man would be 300% + 3 x 15% = 345%. Faster than the current state, but unattainable once the killer gets the ball rolling. One on the hook, one in chase, one on the rescue, and the killer has a ton of extra time.
It'd make pressure way, -way- more rewarding. Probably too rewarding, but I'd take the trade to get rid of camping especially.
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I don't think that whatever they do with Camping is going to result in not being able to Camp. That is my theory.
I just don't think Camping correlates with Gen speeds as an issue especially when they have already done things to gens via Co-op speeds nerfs, along with toolbox nerfs. Meanwhile they have never done anything regarding Camping aside from the being unable to unhook face-camping change.
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Whataboutism at it's finest.
T-bagging doesn't progress generators, BMing at the hook while camping brings a survivor to their second phase.
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Tbagging has no actual in game benefit where as camping does. It exists only to taunt, nothing else. "But some people use camping to be mean" Who cares?
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What changes do you want to the perks?
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This is the same dev team who
+ Added pallet Vaccum
+ Added insta heals
+ Added insta blinds
+ Added killers dropping survivors instantly if blinded/stunned at any part of pickup animation
+ Added Circle of Healing
You already know it is going to be something ridiculous like a survivor moves at +25% move-speed for each consecutive hook state or something.
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The issue with removing the co-op speed penalty is that it makes the game unwinnable for the killer in a 3 gen situation.
Remember even without the penalty it makes all gens only take 40 seconds for 2 survivors and 26.666 seconds for 3 survivors.
It was implemented because if the killer lost the early generators like what usually happens it means the game usually ends in 40-60 seconds or less as its nearly impossible to defend 3-4 generators that only take 40 seconds or less to complete which is why "Prove Thyself" is so strong.
They had to INCREASE the co-op penalty from 10% each to 15% last year as it was causing games to end the moment the killer lost the first 2-3 generators and that's before you considered prove Thyself or toolboxes.
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They've altered gen speeds once or twice before and they've added so many gen regression or slowing perks that making gens slower again at this point would be a bit overbearing for survivors on the lower end of gameplay especially if the killers are running a bunch of gen slow or regression perks. Like slower gen times on someone running legion with extra mend times and gen perks would be a nightmare to play against and they're already wack to play against
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That's why the base gen time needs to be increased. In effect, it won't change anything if the survivors stay in pairs, which makes them easier to pressure, but it'll slow survivors down tremendously if they all split up, which makes them impossible to pressure.
I just want the safest strategy to not also be, by far, the fastest.
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They would never fix camping, its a mechanics in the game allowing guarding your hook to apply more pressure on unhooking survivors and force second stage or hook trade in some situations if you play it well.
They will never change that. What are they changing is facecamping. Which is not the same as camping and I am for changing it. Unless they ######### it up somehow and heavily punish killers who dont facecamp as well
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See, that's more of an anti-camping effect than actual proposed camping changes! It doesn't solve the facecamping Bubba, but it removes the incentive for almost everything else to facecamp.
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Not at all. It'd massively buff camping, since the facecamped survivor is worth between 115 and 130% repair speed as opposed to 100/70/40/10%, so the killer is rewarded more for camping.
It'd theoretically allow survivors to punish it more if three on a gen is more efficient, but that'll be really hard to coordinate outside swiffers.
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Ok so just a quick point i don't think has been made, the survivor that gets camped or tunneled out of the game has just wasted there time completely, no enjoyment or fun has been had. I've had so many people say I tried the game and uninstalled it because they were facecamped and tunneled way to often they couldn't get a grasp of the game. There's points on both sides 100% but there is no need to face camp or tunnel. knowing many amazing killers at the game, who all get 4ks without doing so, I have had 4ks and I dont use killer. Use what's given to you.
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No thanks. 2 manning gens already destroys the late game.
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2-manning would change by less than a second.
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Maybe watch some Streamers that know how to play the game? I know many Streamers that dont have any issues getting their wins on a frequent basis, which just doesnt mean that they 4k all the time. dont know what people you follow, but theyre probably not the smartest.
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Best topic ever.
Camping will never be changed because nothing better for a game than player rage, passionate involvement and endless discussions.
Keeps you hooked.
Like this study that hate comments and topics in (anti)social media generate the most clicks.
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For every one streamer you can link me that got a 4k or 3k I can link you at least 5 streamers that got 1k or 2k don't be so naive
When someone that has 8000 hours in this game gets 3-4 games in a row where they struggle hard
Then how tf is someone that plays causally supposed to win against squads like that
Believe it or not but most people don't have the time to put thousands of hours into this game
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I don't think they can "fix" facecamping without making killer experience even worse than today, so they would kill the game in the progress. And besides what makes DBD fun is that you can play how you want to. If they make the game more linear they will lose players doing so.
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So just because there are by far more people that are bad at this game means playing as killer needs camping for kills? I know players with above 10k hours as killer mains struggling every game cause theyre bad but they still think its the games fault. Its so hilarious.
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If a chase lasts longer than 30 seconds you lose a Gen. If you leave that chase to go pursue another or try and stop gens it costs you even more. This is especially true as far as the first 3 gens are concerned, since the game likes to just spawn survivors on top of gens.
Survivors complain about exposed or getting downed super fast in chases all the time, but also all agree being chased is the most fun part of the game. But for a lot of killers you have to commit to a chase, and end it in less than 30 seconds. And if it goes longer than 30 than your best option is now to camp as you hear 2-3 gens pop. Leaving the hook that just cost you all those gens only serves to solidify your disadvantage.
So pick. Do you want longer chases, or quicker ones? Because as far as I've seen survivors really hate going down quickly in chases and constantly ask for nerfs to anything that enables killers to end chases fast or before they even start. Because if you want longer chases then it means gens are gonna have to slow down somehow. Or give killers more tools to protect them.
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Yeah, if you HAVE to camp to get kills, that's just a lack of skill. It's simply untrue that you have to camp at ANY point in time during a match, INCLUDING EGC. You literally never HAVE to camp. If they escape, they escape. The fun of the game (on both sides) is the chase.
If you aren't chasing, you're making the game boring just to get a kill.
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Don't you tell me how I have fun. And don't you try to shame me if I want to try killing them instead of giving them lollipops when they twerk out the exit gates.
The chase is fun FOR YOU. You have no damn right to tell me what's fun for me, or what I should or should not do.
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You forgot dead hard rollback
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your name fits you well I see because you have an attitude for no reason. take a chill pill
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But he is right since when is someone else deciding what part of the game. I paid for has to be the fun part for me
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