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Cenobite issue
Hey there!
I'd like to address and form a discussion regarding Cenobite and two perks - Hoarder and Franklin's Demise
Hoarder is a very underrated perk and can lead to better map pressure and punishing people for not doing primary objective - generators, while Franklin's Demise can punish people for searching chests (Hoarder gives two additional chests) and usage of items.
These two perks combined lead to very powerful combination, regardless of which killer you play and is really annoying to go against, but what can be more annoying than having a killer, whose power can be amplified by using these two perks?
Imagine that you're a peaceful Claudette, enjoying your game of Dead by Daylight, and you queue up against a Cenobite with this combination and addons - Larry's Remains and Liquified Gore (you can substitute this with something much more powerful, such as Engineer's Fang). What does this mean? Picking up a box will lead to one thing - you will go through a remarkably hard serie of extreme scenarios. First of all, when you pick up the box, you are Oblivious which means you cannot hear the killer's TR. Second of all, he can see that you picked up the box and go on you even before you start searching it. Third of all, if you go to chase or he interrupts you with chains, you will drop the box via usage of Franklin's Demise. Lastly, you will be slowdowned by his two addons.
While you may say "Well, with the recent patch on Cenobite, he deserves some powerful combination". While yes, that's true, but this is something very unfun and unhealthy for this game and should be addressed.
How can BHVR fix this? - Very easily, making Hoarder to not work on the box. This would basically fix this madness and craziness. I played in very high MMR with these combinations and I must really tell you, it has not been hard to beat even a coordinated SWF. In chat, even phrase such as "They should fix this killer" appeared and I for sure agree, that this combination should be looked at. While this combination of perks and addons is rare, it's for sure not something pleasurable to go against.
Thanks for reading, I will be glad if you submit your ideas or opinions! I eagerly look forward to some of your responses!
Comments
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Hoarder is okay on Pinhead.
Franklin's is kinda meh.
Why you would want to nerf two already bad perks on a bad Killer, idk.
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I don’t think you’ve read my whole post. These two perks combined are evil on Pinhead. Pinhead is also not a bad killer, he is certainly very strong.
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Pinhead is not strong.
Would you rather those two perks be replaced with more gen slowdown? It thought we wanted MORE perk variety, not less.
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Pinhead is very strong.
Gen Slowdown is useless, it’s better to have map pressure perks or utility perks. Not a valid argument in my opinion.
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I wanna see this ultra strong pinhead, would you mind playing against my 4 stack? Since he's super strong we should be able to bring the best stuff and you should at least 3k.
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Pinhead is at best low "C" tier.
You mean pressure and utility perks like Hoarder and Franklin's?
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"Why every killer run the same 4 perks, why !!! "
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Franklins and Hoarder are both overrated. Franklin's more so than Hoarder.
Hoarder is decent but very map dependent.
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If they do remove his synergy with those two perks, then he should be given many buffs to compensate.
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Ok I guess he needs to use Ruin + Undying
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He needs buffs either way
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You can play around hoarder, when you pick up the box simply hide for a bit and wait out pinhead searching for you and once he gives up you move to a safe spot on the map to complete the box. Franklin's is mostly just a meme for the most part so you won't see it ran that much on pinhead. You can't really program exceptions for the box either in terms of hoarder's functionality, the box is an item so the only way to remove the synergy is to remove the item pickup notification from hoarder altogether and that's really not a good idea.
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The Cenobites problem is to open the Box he can never remember which PIN to use. 😄
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No. It's fine. He was already unjustly nerfed, stop trying to piecemeal patch stuff you don't like.
People need to learn how to play. Different killers should require different approaches.
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Legion is arguably stronger than pinhead
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The two perks combined aren't 'evil on Pinhead'.
They're evil against low-mid tier survivors.
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He's mediocre at best, and so are Franklin's and Hoarder. Y'all are saying things are problematic which never see play at high level.
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Pinhead is not very strong, as if he is beating your "high mmr coordinated swf", then you and your teammates are bad at the game. Those perks are decent on him, not the best. Stop complaining and learn how to counter it.
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It might be annoying combo to deal with but it is not that strong as full slowdown build.
Also he is not super strong killer at all.
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Hoarder USED to reduce the rarity level of items that survivors found in chests. You know, to have SOME kind of anti-survivor aspect to it. Now, it just gives survivors more chests and tells you if somebody nearby picks up an item. It is hilariously useless in 99% of games. It's ONLY value is on Pinhead. But by all means, let's nerf it further. How about it spawns 20 more chests and doesn't alert the killer. But keep it as a killer perk. That seems like a fair and balanced compromise.
It's perfectly fine for some perks to be good on some killers. Agitation is good on Doctor because it extends the range of his shocks. Useless or actually harmful on every other killer. Pop Goes the Weasle is a mostly good perk on most killers, but after its nerf, it can be hard to find the right gen before its shorter duration wears off. But on Freddy, who can teleport to gens, it's actually pretty strong. Save The Best For Last is completely useless on any killer who only has an M1, but on killers with alternate hit options, like Demogorgon, it's snowballs pretty well. Stridor is a terrible perk, but it was actually useful on Spirit, who depends on sounds. You know, until Iron Will got buffed to override it completely.
Stop trying to kick Pinhead even further. He's got a terrible power, a gutted AddOns list, and he's not even allowed to talk any more. The poor fellow has endured so much already. Just let him chill at the bottom of C-tier and move on with your life.
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Hoarder + Franklin is kind of a trap on Pinhead in all honesty. Hoarder is okayish but you don't really need it as long as you understand the cube's spawn logic and franklin is almost bad on pinhead because you pick up the cube automatically anyway when you down the survivor with the cube and the alternative of making them drop the cube during a chase and either abandoning the chase to solve the cube which will literally spawn again 10 seconds later or leaving the cube to continue the chase and hoping nobody picks it up in the meantime is a bit of a lose lose either way.
You are way better off with neither and just staying in the general area of the cube and just interrupting when they try to solve and you don't really need any perks to do that although I'll admit lethal pursuer can be very decent for this purpose if you want to try and beat them to the first cube spawn
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Agitation is bad when people want Scourge Hooks and Starstruck exists? STBFL is bad on M1 killers that it benefits the most? You okay?
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....Nerfing already iffy perks cause of One killer?
That's something new...
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If I'm not mistaken, Franklin's was changed so that if you get the box from it, it respawns almost instantly (as opposed to 30 seconds on a proper down-pick up) meaning that it really doesn't give that much pressure if you do it this way.
This combination really isn't as good as you think it is - Franky+Hoarder is a meme build now. You're miles better off with STBFL, LP, BBQ, Agitation, Starstruck, Ruin, Devour, ToTT, Plaything, Penti, PR, Surge, Fearmonger, Tinkerer or a wide number of other killer perks.
If you are really having trouble with it, your best bet is to immediately check the area where the box spawns, isolate the closest safety and be ready to run. If you drop the box, don't sweat it - between the hunt starting and it respawning almost immediately, it'll get solved fast.
No, he isn't. I keep seeing people say 'well Otz 4ks on him constantly'. Otz just 4k'd on a Slinger while never using his gun.
Pinhead isn't the worst killer by a long shot, but he's still very mediocre.
This. Honestly, funny gimmick builds are something to encourage, not nerf.
Hoarder doesn't really work unless you're on DDS or something. A lot of the time, survivors just straight up ignore chests as is because they've brought a fancy medkit or toolbox in anyway.
Franklins is a niche perk I'll run on Hag when I get a lobby full of medkits or Wraith when there are multiple flashlights.
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These two perks combined lead to very powerful combination, regardless of which killer you play
You almost had me. Well done, OP. Seems like everybody jumped the gun and fell for the bait. 9/10
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Sorry, I wrote "Agitation" for Doctor when I meant "Distressing." Agitation is only useful for basement builds and possibly scourge hooks. If a survivor team is planning on getting in your way when you have Starstruck, you either don't need Agitation to hit them because they're just body blocking, or they're dancing nearby to try to lure you into a losing chase and you won't catch them even with agitation.
You may not have used STBFL very much or properly, but let me break it down: Save The Best For Last gains stacks from M1 hitting the non-obsession targets. But you lose a bunch of the tokens if you hit the obsession. If you're an M1 killer, you have no recourse with the Obsession but to either refuse to hit them or lose all the tokens you've been building up. If you're playing someone like Demogorgon, however, you can M1 all the non-obsession targets and use his pounce on the obsession without fear of losing tokens. That way you can get to max and stay at max all game long. It's pretty good on a handful of killers (demo, pig), but pretty useless on M1 guys, or killers that rely on their power for virtually all their hits (huntress).
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The sudden extra terror radius from Agitation can be handy, though. And people who don't get out of the way in time whilst you trudge over to a hook at higher speed.
STBFL isn't optimal all the time on M1 killers due to the Obsession thing, but by sheer weight of numbers it's still beneficial: there are three non-obsessions and one obsession. You can gain six stacks and lose four if you hit everyone twice. That's ignoring bodyblocks, protection hits, and healing, which can all feed the stacks up just as easily as they come down. That makes it very far from bad on Killers who, by definition, have to be making a lot of M1 attacks.
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I don’t think you’ve understand what I am trying to imply. Nobody is complaining, rather forming a discussion about annoyance from this build. I played against this only twice, all matches we won, but it’s worth to mention that the map was on our side as well as other factors.
You’re not nerfing the functionality of the perk, rather changing the possible unintentionallity. The perk is very underrated.
As I’m not a killer main, 3k on “4 stack” with comms is very bold statement from you. I would be down for that, with some rules inside.
This means that you shouldn’t change stuff just because something isn’t played often at the highest MMR? Most people play at lower MMR and it’s not just because they are bad, rather it’s because that this MMR system is bad
Legion is a M1 killer with basically no power.
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I used to run those two perks on Pin head but they are very map dependent. Also if you didn't know picking the box off the ground as pin head makes the box spawn back faster. But if you pick up the box by downing the survivor that had it there's a delay before it respawns. So you get to have chain hunt up without the box being spawned in the map longer.
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The point is you said he's very strong, should be able to beat survs with the strongest stuff. Right?
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That's not true. Not even Nurse or Spirit can beat people with the strongest stuff, that's why in competitive there are banned items, perks.
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