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Let's imagine ourselves as a DBD dev. Why in the world would you make the changes that they make?
Because I can't see it.
Naturally, you'd nerf something if it's OVERPOWERED, right? Not just "overused." Perhaps you'd come to the conclusion that some addons are "overused" because every other option is terrible, not that THAT addon is too strong? Maybe you'd give some SIGNIFICANT BUFFS to other things to encourage diversity?
So why isn't this the case? Why does BHVR do this?
I genuinely want some REAL dev insight right now.
Why was Mikhael's Eye nerfed? Did anyone ask for this?
Why was Toy Sword nerfed? By 0.05%? What's even the point?
Why was Stale Biscuit nerfed? Did anyone ask for this? (Actually, no, people asked for the OPPOSITE. People have expressed how AWFUL their 5-8 second fatigue feels)
Madeline's Scarf? Did anyone ask for this? By 2.5%? What's even the point?
Why was Marvin's Blood nerfed? Did anyone ask for this? By 8%? What is the point?
Why was Bubba's addon, Long Guide Bar, which virtually does nothing because the value it affects is irrelevant in 99% of Bubba play, given a number buff instead of a rework? Did anyone ask for this?
Why was Clown's Bleach nerfed by 1%? Again, what is the point of that? Did anyone ask for this?
Why were ALL of these things nerfed over ACTUAL extremely strong killer addons, I.E. something like Alchemist's Ring?
Speaking of that, WHY was a Blight addon touched, yet none of his other ones? I understand it may be on your radar, but why was ADRENALINE VIAL on your radar before his most insane addons? They've been talked about for over 15 months now. Hasn't Adrenaline Vial been touched about 3-4 times now? Why does this addon get changes 3-4 times but there is NOTHING for other addons?
PLEASE. YOUR COMMUNITY WANTS TO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO. People ARE NOT agreeing with OR understanding your changes. Please be a little transparent and give some insight, because you guys seem the be the ONLY ones here who have ever thought of these random changes.
Comments
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The same reason when they nerfed Billy's and Freddy's basekit when no one asked.
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Don't forget about super useless Licker Tongue.
Some perk changes are nice tho. But some of those addon changes are just weird.
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They do all this and don't touch the maps. All the "killers are fine and balanced at high level play" don't include all the brokenly survivor sided maps like Haddonfield, The Game, RPD (although everyone hates this map), Badham, Red Forest, etc etc. It's like "hey burn Macmillan's and hope you get coal tower without a second floor boon" at this point lol.
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>alchemist ring still isn't Nerfed
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They look at raw numbers and that's it. It is the absolute laziest way to decide what gets changed, they literally, OBJECTIVELY do NOT play their own game, and yet go forward with these decisions anyway.
I have nothing else to say, I am simply ashamed of them and I loathe how they do not care about their game at all.
Nemesis is a peak example of what I am talking about, they nerfed his best addons because they were overused, but didn't even acknowledged that 99% of his addons are actual asscheeks. The addons were not even broken or anything, but they still got nerfed.
Pure, 100% undeniable laziness.
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Stats.
I would not be surprised if Toy Sword had an +80% usage rate among Twins Players. Why? Because it makes Victor a lot more manageable to use. I've tried using him without Toy Sword and it is pain. Just straight up pain. The Devs saw off the chart usage and nerfed it.
Same story with Marvin's Blood. Go figure, players want to unlock the most impactful part of Nemesis's power ASAP... so they run Marvins Blood all day every day to make it only take 2 tentacle hits to get Tier 2 and the pallet break. So again... the Devs saw the stats saying players are using this a ton and blindly threw numbers nerfs at it.
I would be willing to bet that 100% of the add ons that got changed were either were "overperforming" or "underperforming" and they just blindly threw some number changes at them without taking a step back and realizing that a lot of the over performing addons were being used for the same reason Windstorm was on Old Wraith and Bags were on Old Trapper... aka without the add ons, playing as those killers sucks.
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This is why I'm so fed up. There are SO MANY people here who play this game a ton and have so many great ideas for healthy balance changes and fun gameplay ideas that would improve the gameplay loop...but the people who ARE in charge, the ones who are making these changes, are making them off of raw numbers. I know they argue that they play their own game, I know Almo2001 used to stream this game every other night or so, but that doesn't MEAN anything. What makes that mean something, what SHOWS that they understand the community, is reflected in the changes that they make.
The changes they make are not based on good experience playing this game. I haven't heard a single person complain about MIKHAEL'S EYE or MARVIN'S BLOOD being too strong of an addon. That is PURE, PURREEEEE ignorance. It was a change that was EXTREMELY obviously made from blind faith in statistics, and I doubt those statistics even indicated they were too strong.
I understand they're minor, but it's not the changes themselves, it's what they represent in how the devs prioritize and make changes. It saddens me. It saddens me so much.
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Some changes I get, but I agree, others don't make sense at all. Like the Mikhail's eye nerf. Is it so hard for them to understand that most of Nemesis addons are just bad? And especially after they buffed his red addon that now increases zombie movement speed by 150%, the nerf to Mikhail's eye makes zero sense to me. Unless they want to increase the base movement speed of zombies, which I highly doubt.
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Acknowledge the cheating problem for a start
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Thank you for mentioning that. It's been a major problem for months and hasn't gotten a SINGLE comment from BHVR.
I feel like we're working with AI. I'm just so sad about this.
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Honestly, all I want - all I really want from BHVR is just one line in a blog post or a tweet
"Yes, we are aware of the issue with cheaters and we are working on it. Thank you"
But no they were too busy roleplaying as dwight for a whole month instead
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This can't be ture other wise DH would have been nerfed already it's usage has to be way over the rest of the perks.
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You would not.
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It is absolutely true, they just don't want to nerf Survivor stuff.
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*imagines self as DBD dev*
*sees topic with negative conclusion posted in topic title*
nods
*closes browser*
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Because I solely listen to "statistical numbers" despite having no background in statistics and never even taking an online course for it.
Only reason I can come up with, and the way they are nerfing certain things solely for being popular just makes me feel more like that's the reason. Marvin's blood was likely nerfed solely because stats showed it was the most used.
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It's starting to really look that way. Not one of the meta perks has been touched medkit are seen in a ton of my matches yet they are untouched. If you want to use usage numbers foe balance then it needs to go both ways you can't be like well x perk or addon is used to often on this killer but then not touch the stuff been used every match on the other side.
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They seem to live in an alternate reality, it's baffling.
The are so many things the players are literally begging to be addressed for years, but they do not care.
What about the painful grind? What about the infamous stretched resolutions?
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That recent experiment/tournament showed that the game is nearly perfectly balanced at the highest level. Its just completely not fun at all.
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I can tell you it's because they don't play the game at high MMR. It's a joke when anyone tells me a Dev is live streaming. They only play survivor and look at stats. I really believe They don't play killer and just listens to the survivor side since it's 4V1
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My thing with the Nemesis nerf is he gives 3 health states and his power has to build thats so much time trying to get your power to a spot it feels good and now you have more trouble migrating that issue.
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The Addon nerfs just are lazy stat reading (Bad Word)
The Perk changes are better stat reading (but not many people would've wanted more before... but will take anything now)
But I don't see any of them making it's way into the "meta" anytime soon
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Dude, you need to calm down.
Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean there isn't a good reason.
While you might only care about balancing changes, BHVR values thematics and design intention.
Looking at the discussions around Trickster's Main Event, and the Developer's desire to build up to a crescendo with his power, we can reason that Nemesis is designed with a similar power curve in mind. Nemesis is not supposed to be super strong early in the trial--his Tier-system is an intentional design choice, as is the limited number of antidotes.
Early in the trial, survivors can shrug off an infection by picking up an antidote, and pallets can actually be used to put some distance between the survivor and the killer. As the trial goes on, Nemesis grows in power--quite literally as he Tiers up, and by proxy of a deminishing number of antidotes remaining in the trial.
Marvin's Blood completely negates the thematic intentions of Nemesis' design, and provides players with an underwhelming shortcut to the finish line.
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If you pretend SWF doesn't exist, and that all games are played by killers and survivors who have just started playing the game, everything makes perfect sense.
At zero hours experience, Survivor is incredibly difficult and needs copious buffs with no nerfs. Some easy-to-use killers like Clown or Deathslinger seem to be incredibly powerful, and have to be nerfed. Some hard-to-use killers like Blight or Nurse seem incredibly weak, and either need buffs or just get ignored.
The game is being balanced around new players, with zero experience or game knowledge.
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I hate to inform you of this but even after the nerf it will probably only take one more hit
So you can out of here with the it's design bullshit when the difference is only one hit
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Okay, be ignorant. Fine by me.
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I agree with that, the nerf to Marvin's Blood is fine. But Mikhail's Eye? That one doesn't make any sense to me.
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Dude, you need to calm down.
I understand that I'm being a little dramatic, but that statement has never once calmed anyone down in the history of humankind. Convince me instead. Convince literally everyone else here.
Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean there isn't a good reason.
While you might only care about balancing changes, BHVR values thematics and design intention.
That is not a good reason. This is a multiplayer PVP game; you don't value "thematics" over important, significant balance changes that can improve the quality of this game. Neglecting good changes in favor of things that nobody else but BHVR's balance team deem an issue creates such a huge disconnect between the community and them. What you're providing as reasoning is the kind you'd see in patchnotes for a game like Fallout or Skyrim, not Dead By Daylight.
Either way, that reason alone does not help me in understanding their thought process. If they're valuing thematics, then I can get why individual changes are made, but I don't understand THAT'S what they value for their multiplayer PVP game. Why is Marvin's Blood's nerf being more thematic for Random Game Designer #3 and #4's intended gameplay flow for Nemesis more important over 1. Balance 2. Actual changes that we are asking for.
I don't care if Toy Sword being 0.05% weaker is more in-line with the 3rd paragraph of Twins' lore, nobody is asking for it. This wouldn't be that much of a problem if this was just an isolated incident, but this has been happening over, and over, and over, and over again. This community is dissatisfied. Prioritizing so much ######### that's barely relevant to the design of this game is an i n s u l t to that. This is the type of garbage that is filling up more than half of a midchapter patch. This is what they dedicated time and resources towards thinking and changing instead of things that we are asking for.
So TLDR, to respond to your first statement, I DO understand why specific changes were made. I DON'T understand why those changes are prioritized, nor why their reasoning is anything but balance (not thematics, not design intention) when so many things could benefit from the effort that was put towards these meaningless changes.
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It does bring out a great point here that we can be civil and still discuss key points that need to be made about the game. A shame that I dont think any developers peruse, much less talk about or even post on these forums. Behavior and Mod posts are probably mostly considered community managers or just downright forum moderators and have no real stake in developer changes
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Oh cmon, it's not all that bad guys.... After this patch zombies can get stuck for no reason 150% faster. Y'all just be trippin' yo
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The reason thematics is as important as balance is because a character's theme is the reason you play them--it is their identity.
Balance is such an iterative process; it is a lot of trial and error, looking at data, listening to feedback, etc. If you just follow that process wherever it leads, the final result can end up very far from where you started. Identity is the captain that stears the ship.
So when any developers are designing a game (or elements within a game), all the changes they make are held up against the game's identity and asked "does this change your identity?"
If yes, then they go back to the drawing board and try to find a better solution.
Sometimes, in the case of Freddy, the developers will decide to abandon an identity and establish a new one.
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Exactly. Cornered Jane in a loop, zombie was comming for her. Sweet how can it be better
plot twist: zombie gets stuck into a rock close to a loop.
BHVR is obviously having issues. Either the game lead has no idea what he is doing, or majority of developers are juniors, so in other words, they have no idea what they are doing
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Hello, I like money.
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At least i can give 2 survivors hats with amandas letter now
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To pretend they are doing something without actually addressing core issues that the majority of the vocal community criticizes nonstop, around the clock.
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If I only viewed the game with average players in mind, the things they do make total sense.
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They look at the numbers, see that Marvin's Blood is the most used addon by a large margin. Then they nerf it and say: "Everyone's using these select few addons, they must be overpowered"
When in reality they're just the best addons there are, when none of them are particularly great.
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To grab more cash from the newbies and p*ss off veterans even more. otherwise no logical person would ever run their game like they do...
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toolbox brand new part and medkit is rarely used ye?
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trying to think as a dbd dev... i think they nerfed the most used nemesis addons so the less used have more space after buff. But they still useless imo and id rather use a consistent nerfed addon than a situational buffed one.
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it's easier to sell band-aid fixes in the form of new perks/killers than to fix the mountain of bad decisions and incompetence you built up
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Marvin's blood did not remove or significantly change his identity.
If something slightly alters the identity that Game Designer #4 intended, then its position in the game should be assessed. First of all, to a degree, we have to recognize that addons are intended to change the killer's identity. It's when they go too far is when they're problematic (i.e extremely transformative to the point where the killer is FAR different in a way that's not very healthy).
Is it stripping the killer from their entire identity? No.
If it WERE to, could that "new identity" be adopted as an improvement on the original? Sure thing, because game design as a whole is an iterative process.
Is it unbalanced? No.
Is it widely agreed upon that it feels bad to play against? No.
Is it too transformative? No.
Is it even really TALKED about? No.
Is it used a lot? Yes.
Is it used a lot because it makes Nemesis far too strong of a character? No.
Is it used a lot because it's a useful add-on that's more appealing than the other weak links in the addon set? Likely.
Is Game Designer #4 very happy that it doesn't PERFECTLY align with the identity that they intended Nemesis to have? Sure! What should we do about it? Give them a "too bad."
Why "too bad?" Because there are so. many. other. places. to direct focus, time, and thought towards; things that THOUSANDS of people are asking for, not just one person in BHVR's office. This change is meaningless. It's unnecessary as hell. So are all of the others that I listed.
I'm not here to talk about Marvin's Blood my friend. That's one teeny tiny little piece of the much bigger picture that shines a light on the awful design philosophy that BHVR has. I'm done talking about Marvin's Blood. We disagree. That'll be all.
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Truly I don’t think the devs are biased they’re just very inconsistent. Take last chapter you decide to nerf Wraith for being a wee bit OP. Then bring back viable three blink Nurse because that’s not as strong apparently. Including this update buffing a Blight add-on because he needs it apparently. While nerfing Twins add-ons because they obviously are too strong in current DBD
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Agreed. They don't have a bias when they have very little to base their bias on in the first place. Their understanding doesn't come from being some survivor main, killer main, or some enlightened centrist main. Their understanding comes from inconsistent numbers that are ever-changing. They don't pave the road that they follow when it comes to balance, they let numbers do that for them. Meanwhile, everyone else here that DOES play this video game expects them to do the same as they would, which is to NOT blindly follow numbers and instead use good experience alongside statistics to make genuinely good decisions. That's why this whole community gets fed up so much. We have more first-hand experience and understanding than they do.
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At this point, nobody should be surprised. BHVR now has a pretty consistent track record of making changes that seemingly nobody has been asking for and ignoring major issues that are frequently raised by streamers and people on the forums. Is there some secret group of people that don’t stream or comment on the forums that BHVR exclusively relies on for feedback? That’s the only explanation.
I don’t think this is going to change until people stop playing the game. Until then, they’re just going to do whatever TF they want.
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The bigger picture is that they have a vision for each killer, and they adjust add-ons based on that vision. ...as was the case with Marvin's Blood.
You're looking for a reason. I told you the reason.
Apparently, you prefer to just assumed BHVR is a studio filled with idiots.
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You're looking for a reason. I told you the reason.
You did not, and I stated this. I'm looking for a reason as to why all of these meaningless changes are prioritized.
Apparently, you prefer to just assumed BHVR is a studio filled with idiots.
Nope. I'd prefer not to throw snarky comments at each other either, so keep them to yourself. I'm not insulting your intelligence or your deductions, and I actually validated the reason (for individual changes) that you provided. It makes SENSE for BHVR to use "identity" as reasoning to change things regardless of their place in the overall balance of the game or character, even if I don't personally agree with that reasoning. However, as I said, you're missing my overall point. It's not about Marvin's Blood or Toy Sword and the individual cases as to why they were changed, it's about priority and how it's been consistently bad, confusing, insulting, and out-of-touch with the community for a very long time now, and, since you introduced your argument, given that you're correct in your assumption about the value they place on the identity of characters, why they'd value identity and the minuscule, time-wasting changes they're making to adjust their personal visions for the game over balance when balance and the health of the game are far more of an issue at the current moment.
It's like a surgeon who's fixing a broken toe and treating a cut on the leg while a brain is leaking blood, with a whole room of people behind them SCREAMING to just address the brain. Sure, maybe fixing that broken toe and patching up that little cut on the leg would be good things to address later on, but you cannot deny that the leaking brain is far more of a problem, and neither can you blame all of those other people in the room for getting more frustrated for every minute the surgeon ignores that problem.
I hope you understand my point this time around.
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Too realistic, don't do that
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I really didn't intend for that to be a snarky comment. Was just my observation that you threw my response out the window and posed the same question over again.
Your point is much more clear now.
I agree with you, I think they do a pretty poor job responding to problems (even glaring ones), and they have a history of releasing content that is incredibly tone-deaf. I don't work for BHVR, so obviously I don't know what their internal structure looks like, and how that effects the game's development, but whatever process they do have in place is wildly inefficient.
The second half of the developer notes are all changes I probably would have thought up on the drive over to the office. An hours worth of work at most. These are the kind of changes I think they should be implementing every week, because they are easy number changes to program and the worst that happens is they break the game for a week--instead of months where we all scream and shout and wait until the next major bug fix.
But when it comes to listening to community feedback, I think there is a major case of "too many cooks in the kitchen." There are a lot of strong opinions on this forum, and very few people seem interested in having an actual conversation.
Just look at the Feedback page on these forums. Its dead. No one actually wants to discuss potential improvements to the game or promote community-made ideas. Its no wonder that so many feedback-related posts are created in General Discussions, because everyone knows their ideas are Dead on Arrival in Feedback.
As a result, there is no real serious discussion happening on these forums.
It must be really difficult for the devs to filter out the noise, especially when mods are constantly punting conversations over to Feedback that are far from constructive.
BHVR missed the boat when they decided not to use Fog Whisperers as consultants. Not only are Fog Whisperers playing their game as a full-time job, but they are directly interacting with the community. They may not always have the best ideas, but they've got their finger on the pulse.
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The simplest reason is the following one: Because there's no game like DbD... and even if a game like that is developed, DbD has years on it which the new game will lack of, being that said, people won't purchase the "No DbD" game because it's in an early state. Without money and a big player base, a game won't be able to survive.
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