Why is BHVR never listening to us?
Community: Please do something about the insane amount of cheaters.
Devs: Removes Bubba masks.
Community: Please buff some bad addons for different killers.
Devs: Nerfs Nemesis's only good addon (Marvins Blood).
Community: Please remove / improve the SBMM system because it's a terrible system.
Devs: Add a stupid and unnecessary new wiggle system.
Why don't they ever listen to the people that spend a lot of money on the game?
The only thing i enjoy about this update are the new voice lines for The Cenobite and some perk improvements.😪
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Probably because the community keeps making threads like this fill of strawmen and false equivalencies and that's when they're not doing conspiracy theories and taking everything the devs say in bad faith.
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Your first and last examples are two things that have nothing to do with each other. (And they did say they are working on improving MMR in their dev update)
I believe the devs do listen, but listening doesn't mean they just do whatever they are told. The devs also need to filter out a lot of garbage feedback and trolling.
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The PTB patchnotes cheaters were addressed.
While I don't like SBMM and think the need to add more nuance to how MMR is calculated they did mention several things in the Dev Update they will be adjusting to try and improve the system.
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I agree but also disagree.
Therefore there are so called community managers who supposed to filter out topics and forward the feedback.
but also bhvr is interacting in topics such as i have made it - 100% achievements done. but on actual problems or clarification why they think its OK (eg boons range, multi level effect and healing speed). Not a single word
I assume (hope) they donsend such feedback into development department, but why is this ignored god knows.
SBMM is also never going to work as intended in dbd. It will just have ups and down on particular players mmr. Limbo of 0K and 4K. but that seems quite balance apperantly
And yes, removing bubbas mask wont have a great impact on preventing racism. But then again, calling all non-whites as PoC is racist aswell. But apperantly this is a cute name for hispqnic, africans, etc
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Just adding - alot of the community has been asking for the Claudette mask to be removed for years now. A large portion of the community also asked for the wiggle system to be changed due to ruining keyboards/controllers as well as for accessibility. So those two examples are things BHVR listened to the community on.
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The short answer is: They are listening to the community.
The longer answer is: Game development takes time, and not everything the community says (in the scant few examples of there actually being a majority agreement) is actually a good idea. When you see new things in a patch, they represent a few months of work, typically, due to the way actual professional game dev works- it's not a private modding project or something, things are worked on in a specific order at specific times by people who are being paid to work a certain amount of hours. Changing those parameters is what leads to crunch, which is a massive issue in the game development industry and isn't something we should start demanding.
Also, yeah, your equivalences don't match up and they did address cheaters in this patch, alongside both wiggle changes and the mask removal being things some people did actually want.
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I still don't understand why the masks have to go. This proves that the devs rather let everyone suffer instead of punishing people that abuse them. It's much more important to fix the insane amount of cheaters. The ''old'' wiggle system is not something that is bad for the game. Some people even make content out of cheating in the game, that's just insane. 1-2 months ago i played with someone that healed someone insanely fast, i almost knew 100% sure he was cheating and i just asked him how he did it so fast. He just told me that he was cheating, cheaters don't even try to hide it because it doesn't matter anymore, they just don't care. Things like this are extremly bad for the game, the wiggle update can wait however...
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Umm... I didn't say that it was.
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True. I've been asking for killer nerfs for years and we've gotten nothing but killer buffs.
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There's multiple posts already explaining as well as videos on YouTube from DBD content creators that experienced the harassment explaining the removal and even multiple news articles explaining why the masks are being removed. At this point if you still don't understand I don't know what else I could say that would make a difference. Ultimately it doesn't matter - BHVR has made their stance on it clear and the masks are getting removed.
Again, the wiggle system change was due to the wear and tear it had on keyboards/controllers that caused them to break as well as for accessibility. Just because you personally did not have an issue with it does not mean there were plenty of others that did have an issue that complained and were heard by BHVR.
As I said in my first comment on this post, and I will repeat again - they addressed a fix for cheating in the patch notes. Here is the screenshot again.
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Part of that is people being pissed off and part of that is "oh great another update that adds nothing of value for balancing your game why bother supporting this anymore"
Let's face it the game is slowly dying and while some say the ring dlc might help it won't in the long run.
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How about not just reading what you want? Otherwise your post should have loooked like this:
Community: Please do something about the insane amount of cheaters.
Devs: Fixed a vulnerable instance for hackers.
Community: Please buff some bad addons for different killers.
Devs: Buffed severeal killer addons.
Community: Please remove / improve the SBMM system because it's a terrible system.
Devs: Showed the way its gonna be handled in the future.
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In only a short sentence: No one in this community will be happy with what bhvr does.
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Cause people suggest dumb garbage like banning pallet blinding
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Henry Ford once said.
"If I asked the people what they wanted, they would ask for faster horses".
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You weren't suppose to say that 😂😂
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So... you're absolutely 100% sure he didn't have for the people?
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You didn't read the dev updates or patch notes did you? They talked about trying to make changes to mmr for better matchmaking experiences and they talked about fixing possible loopholes cheaters are using.
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They listen and do some of the things that community demands. Not everything tho.
It is ignorant to say they don't. Even those masks were removed because some people wanted them removed. Also people wanted wiggle to change because of the controller analog issues. And they did. You mentioned changes people wanted themselves and still say they don't listen.
Not sure how you missed that.
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SWF hasn't been fixed for 5 years and counting, and it's the main reason this game is impossible to balance. And it's just one example. So, the main idea of OP is still valid.
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I'm curious, what would you say "fixing SWF" would look like?
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I only remember one thread asking for it, and it was a clear joke thread. Even if there are people in the community who take this mask as a serious problem, they are not just a "vocal minority", they would be a "vocal 0.1%". Why do you think the devs never bothered asking the players themselves, via some kind of in-game vote? Because they knew almost every player would oppose the mask censorship. This example just shows BHVR at its finest: listening to some twitter celebrities while completely ignoring 99.9% of the playerbase and making completely unnecessary, unasked for and generally unpopular changes, while the real problems which are being talked about literally every day remain unaddressed.
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There could be several options.
Bringing solos to the level of SWFs completely, like this: adding icons showing who is doing what (including chases), adding quick global messages like "the killer is near me" or "my gen is X% done" (that would show the exact %), adding text team chat at least, making Kindred, BT and DS basekit, etc.
Moving SWF to a separate game mode with separate game rules.
Removing SWF completely: wanna play with your friends - go to Kill Your Friends and bully one of your own.
etc.
Still, not a single attempt to do ANYTHING to address the problem (the main problem of the game to that) has been done for 5 years. The devs act like the problem is not even there, they don't even bother to acknowledge its existence.
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Ahhh, I see. I mean, part of why you've not seen any attempt to do this things in five years is that most of them are very stupid.
However, that first idea is a good one, though the "completely" stipulation does make it impossible. But hey, they're moving towards doing that now, at least- I know it's very tempting to say "yeah after five years" but the problem with that is that it becomes literally impossible for them to ever do the right thing after a certain point. If we want them to close the gap between SWF and SoloQ, them doing that is a good thing even if it took a long time.
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Since I joined in April of 2020 I've seen multiple serious posts on the forums requesting the mask be removed due to blackface and harassment - usually they are in the Feedback section. Just because you didn't see them doesn't mean they didn't exist, you just were more focused on other things you cared about.
Know what helps BHVR focus on more aspects of the game? Removing free cosmetics that were being used to amplify racism in their game so there are less support tickets coming in about that they need to investigate and can instead focus on other support tickets that are about in game issues.
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So the things that the community feel are busted just should be ignored?
How many threads you seen about Clown being op?
How many have you seen about CoH?
And yet a Killer that is mained by 3 people gets his 1 addon that might make him viable to play nerfed.
To some of us, it feels like 90% of the issues that the players on the forums complain about get ignored, yet extremely small issues, i.e Clown and Twins nerfs get dealt with.
Why would people not feel they get ignored? There is no community consulting. We get patch notes, dropped on us, Boom this is what we are fixing, nevermind what the players think.
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How many threads do you see on here that are either "omg this game is so killer/survivor sided" or "omg bhvr so dumb this game not fun they must not even play it and I'm uninstalling" or even "X wasn't in the most recent patch notes so it's not being looked at and will never get any changes".
I'm not surprised things are how they are when the community has no idea what constructive criticism is and mostly just complains about the game not being easy for them. This doesn't even touch on the fact then when a dev does poke their head out there's 90% chance they will have their head bitten off for even the most milquetoast comment.
Instead of asking why don't the devs listen perhaps ask "are we a community that's constructive and pleasant to interact with?" the answer is no btw because we respond to literally everything with outrage no matter what it is. This shouldn't be surprising however given how often the community is cannibalizing itself with "us vs. them" threads.
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The community maybe unpleasant to deal with, but thats the joy of being in a service industry.
It might not be the fault of the person at the checkout that there isn't any toilet paper, but you can be sure he is the one going to cop the abuse.
Behaviour has done nothing to help themselves. With the we don't care about colourblind, to go play civilzation, i'd say the developers have just as much at fault as to why they cop it.
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The colourblind thing probably happened as it was in development and the civ comment was good advice given by the wrong person I don't really see your point or why anyone would deserve abuse.
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Because when people have raised legmitate concerns in a constructive way they are treated with disdain?
A player is giving feedback on colorblind in a constructive manner and gets treated like shite.
And again with the killer question
Even Queen laughs at his answer.
Now you tell me why players who ask clear non abusive questions about the state of the game, get just treated like trash.
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The more we talk BVHR knows there ok, people still playing the game. Its when nobody is bitching about something when they need to worry
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probably because
- community is way too whiny and unconstructive
- OTP flame war is still a thing, seriously this is a m rated game, how this still a thing?
- Community overall is worse at balancing the game than the dev, the stuff that get posted here, on reddit, twitter and steam is a perfect example of "how to make the game worst" and the worst part is the posters here act like their ideas are objectively good
- also the constant dead horse beating
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I have no issue with an accessibility improvement on the Wiggle function, but who asked for "And also make it so that survivors can escape quicker if they hit great skill checks"? And no, Sluzzy doesn't count and I'm aware that it's a 1 second improvement which is a 6% improvement. Many addons do far less than 6%!
To be honest, I believe a far better solution for all involved would be to make Wiggle one of the actions that can use the new Toggle functionality.
Old-school survivors who like to buttonmash? Happy.
Survivors with accessibility issues/hate buttonmashing? Happy
Survivors who choose not to wiggle IE killer taking them to hook? Happy.
Killers who experience no change whatsoever? Happy.
It's a win-win and a chance to highlight their new Toggle accessibility feature, so I'll admit I'm surprised that nobody in BHVR thought of this.
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To answer the first point you made here. The Designer in question was playing on his own stream, in his own time, not his work time and the person questioning him had been answered many times and was told to supply feedback on the forums. Badgering a designer on their own time, when they are not working is not acceptable and a pretty rude thing to do.
And the 2nd point there, that was also addressed in a post on Steam where Mathieu explained clearly about what he meant. He was not dismissing players concerns but making a valid point about when you get frustrated on something, it might also be time to take a break. (I got frustrated with Bloodborn and took a 4 month break before I was calm enough to play it again - Bloodborn is the game that makes me frustrated). It was not an attempt at being flippant.
We do listen to player feedback, however, listening and implementing things are two very different things. And game designers know more than we do with regards to what will work, what won't etc and which direction the game is going to take.
The LF masks have been something that's discussed for years, and the decision was taking to remove them to prevent them being used in a hateful manner. This is not about banning players who racially abuse others - as that is done also, it's about trying to remove the tools to make it easy for players to abuse others in this manner...I'm still surprised that people are opposed to this.
Yepp exactly, it had been in development for some time - it's not a quick thing to implement. It was tested heavily also before we were ready to announce it to the Community, we plan things months in advance and things can be worked on for quite some time before they appear in the game. So many departments are involved in each stage.
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Because most things the community post are:
- Deranged rants.
- Bad ideas (removing SWF/X Killer).
- Demands for absurd buffs or nerfs.
- Demands for nerfs/buffs but either paired with strawmen arguments or lack any empyrical reasoning or proofs (nerf this because is OP, and it may be true but why is OP?), try recording what you think is OP and develop a brief explanation about it, maybe theyll listen or maybe the comunity may help you with your problem (sometimes is not a balance issue but a skill one).
- Calls for firing everyone, even the people cleaning the offices at night.
- People powertripping (IM KILLER, KILLER STRONG, KILLER SMASH, SURVIVOR SHOULD FEAR ME, SURVIVOR SHOULD BE SO TRAUMATIZING PEOPLE PLAYING IT SHOULD DEVELOP PTS AND VIETNAM STYLE FLASHBACKS!!).
- Demands that are "unreasonable" while demanding a fix to the cheaters is not unreasonable demanding it RIGHT NOW! is, cheaters are a problem in every game and it takes a lot of time to close the gaps and cracks they use to cheat (only to be open anew in a few months), huge corporations with massive resources like Blizzard, Activision, EA etc have problems with cheaters that take months or years to fix, BHVR is not gonna be faster than those with smaller studio and less budget.
- And a long etc of low quality posts
If you want your post to be listened to avoid being abrasive and posting ideas without any reasoning backing them, on the other hand try to post ideas with solid reasoning, proofs and recomendatios on what to do.
For example when CoH was on the PTB people went literally insane on how strong it was, everyone acted like some kind of doomsday cult about it, it would kill Killer etc, nobody posted proof of CoH being strong other than "NERFNERFNERFNERF!" then suddenly someone came with a thread which had a video embeded that showed 2 people could heal someone on CoH faster than the Killer could hit them and body blocking the totem, effectively taking the game hostage, CoH got tweaked on the PTB (not enough I admit but it got tweaked), who do you think they listened to? to the myriad of screaming lunatics or to the guy posting a video, showing a problem and explaining where the problem was?, you want quality in regards of what ideas get listened to? you have to post quality too.
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They do, on different occasions we saw that they do.
The issue is that sometimes they chose not to (looking at the grind thing here for example) and also because they are a bit to slow sometimes.
Now... Apparently bhvr is a good company who doesn't overwork their employees, and i was.... Almost proud to support a company like that, but.... I must admit, sometimes i feel like they could be faster with some changes.
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On the LF masks comment, I think people are upset about that because most of the time people don't really like having something they worked hard on getting being taken away, even if taking the masks away is a good thing in the long run. Those people most likely feel like they are being punished for others' actions and the actually bad people are getting away with their actions. I doubt the hateful people who used the masks in that way even care you take them away, they will just go find another thing or way to be hateful. That being said I personally don't care if the LF masks are being taken away since I don't have any of them or cared to try for them(tbh I didn't even know they were a thing till a few weeks ago) but I do understand why many people are upset with the decision. People just don't like having things taken away from them that they worked hard to get. Also, 6k shards is a pretty lame way to repay them back and you also repaying the hateful ppl who used the mask for ill will.
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At the moment I need from the developers:
- improve comfort when playing as Deathslinger;
- add counteraction to boon totems, cooldown;
- reduce grind, remove perk levels;
- mmr. Well, they said they work.
I hope I don't have to wait a year for these changes ...
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I kinda have to agree with Mandy in most of these.
Going into anybody's stream and badgering them with the same question repeatedly is kinda messed up. Even Otz has an FAQ set up that he'll refer you to if you ask questions he's already responded to in the past. If I'm trying to kick back and enjoy myself, the last thing I want to do is answer a bunch of questions about work, let alone the same question multiple times.
And as much as I love quoting Mr Mathieu's have you tried Civilization line, he's not incorrect. Just the way he said it could've been worded better. Anyone who's ever played league of legends knows. Tilt can have a major impact on your games. So much so that most people recommend that you stop playing for the rest of the day, or at least most of it, if you lose 2 games in a row. Because tilt has a very strong snowball effect.
And while I still think there could've been better ways to address abuse and racism that maybe should've come first, I am completely okay with them removing anything that adds to people's ability to abuse and harass or single out players and ruining their fun. It doesn't change the characters gameplay at all, so I'm not complaining.
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The synopsis is greatly appreciated (And hey can now be easily referenced as a template if people are unwilling to put in the effort to make compelling criticism)
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The cleaning people broke me
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Huh. Even when this community was smaller and far less toxic, especially at higher ranks where you ran into the same people often, 3-4 years ago, the devs never really listened. They did make the odd change to something massive that really was broken at times, like vacuum pallets, infinites, DS after countless years and whining (rightfully so) But those are things that also took far too long, with a ton of community backlash, that were also quite clear and made sense to change too. I would say that, the past year or two has been the least they really listened to this community in the history of the game.
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@MandyTalk seeing the issues with boons/ particularly coh, you dont need data raining down the screen as you are in the matrix.
What Cote said, was harsh, especially with the tone and how he said that to not_queen. He deserves to be a meme. And the rephrasing at other stream is as he knew he F up, or somebody above told him to do so. Just so people will forgive and forget
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I would respectfully disagree. They do listen probably more than ever. Just a couple weeks ago there were so many mask threads that you were hard pressed finding a forum post not talking about them. There's a lot of things they're changing that has been asked for. Do I still think their focus is in the wrong places sometimes? Yeah, sure. But at the same time, I'm not a game designer. I have no real experience for what goes into it. All I have is what I've studied and read up on. Maybe one day I'll get off my butt and make a game that blows DbD out of the water. But until such time, it's their gig and I kinda either have to play by their tune or go somewhere else ya know lol.
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They did Nerf boons though, almost immediately. I can understand taking time though to see how changes are gonna affect gameplay. While I still agree, the healing stacking on COH is still a bit over tuned, the rest of boons are actually fine even when stacked together. I think we'll probably be seeing a few changes to the stacking of COH in the not too distant future.
The thing is though, most of the time they're not running 4 second healing builds. They're running COH with dead hard, unbreakable, BT, iron will, things like that. So the healing is just the natural 16 seconds. Which isn't that horrible.
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People are opposed to this, because this isn't a great solution to resolve the racism in the game. We ask your team to finally take an action against those toxic people, but you guys are still somehow don't get. I proposed to change the penalty for racist harrassment from temporary to permanently bans and finally banning people from your game that are hurting because of their skin color, sexual orientation and country that they come from etc. Your support team are ignoring the reports, even with evidence and this is seriously not okay. Hope you'll understand.
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People screaming for Pinhead's voice to come back were definitely listened to. I think some people just are not patient, which is required to understand the process as a whole.
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I think you are messing up cause and effect here in a massive way to make a populist point while also dismissing the positive changes to systems and where they led.
First of all the demand to do something about cheaters is valid, no question. However you can not say what you are doing about them in public because that would make the arms race against them harder. The fight against cheating is done in the shadows and not up front.
Bubbas masks where removed for a very different reason. There was debate about that, which I will not repeat. Was it a good thing or a bad thing to remove them, well that is up for further debate but there was demand to remove them from parts of the community.
The question to buff certain add-ons for Killers was answered. Hillbilly had his engravings buffed, got Pighouse Gloves and some other neat part. Michael Myers got his Memorial Flowers and Pig got a whole add-on pass with some very good new add-ons. Also please do not forget the Trapper rework.
Nemesis nerf is bad. I do not understand it and will not defend it. But it is no response to the community.
SBMM was a response to the community who hated the Rank system. BHVR did something out it and gave you SBMM only to have people hate that too. Maybe you should consider that people are never going to be happy with any system here give them Ranks and they cry about bad teammates and baby Killers; give them SBMM and they cry about only 4 survivor perks and only 2 tryhard Killers...well maybe you get matched against tryhards when you tryhard yourself...just a guess...
The wiggle system is an upgrade in my opinion. I hate button mashing and this makes it so much better. Also you are ignoring the quality of life changes to holding buttons...
Overall, please question the relation of cause and effect a bit more...otherwise you draw foolish conclusions.
People underestimate the amount of time certain changes take.
Take me for an example: I will demand that different Exhaustion perks have different values until I quit the game or die. Same for different areas of effect for Boon totems.
However if the code is done that everything with the tag "Exhaustion" has a set value of 60/50/40 then the devs would have to remove that tag from every perk, make a new variable for every perk level (not to say perk levels are good), give that variable a new value and hope everything around that still works and they did not suddenly make the survivor crash when they press E to outplay. And then they have to do that about 3-4 more times for every platform and hope for the best again...this will take time.
This issue will not stop my demand. However this change seems "small" to me, yet it takes quit some work to implement...
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its indoora maps and badham and such with strong basement totem. That makes it utterly broken. A perk that adds 5th perk and jack or all trades to equip as an item is massive buff.
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This is really bullshit with masks.Peoples are now offending by everything,soon we are not going to be able to hook black survivors because peoples going to be ofended 🤣 todays world problems...
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