Franklin's Demise
I'm going to start this off by saying that while I'm new to the forums, I'm not new to the game. I have almost 300 hours, and I've played off-and-on for about four years at this point in time.
I believe that it's an unnecessarily toxic perk that, while mildly beneficial to the killer, doesn't nearly warrant the shear rage felt at losing any item you were planning to use. Survivor items in general are a lot less powerful than killer add-ons (possibly excluding flashlights, but those already have the specific counter of lightborn that killers could run instead with a lot less toxicity) due to the limited nature of them. I've thought this across all iterations of the perk, and even with the most recent changes to it I still think it's a terrible thing.
Also, most of the reasons that I've seen people defend the perk in past threads are no longer applicable. A few of these are:
1) No white ward alternative for killer add-ons -- this hasn't been the case ever since the induction of the black ward. The equality of this black ward/white ward between killers and survivors is negated by the fact that killers have a way to get rid of survivor item and add-ons but survivors lack the possibility to remove killer add-ons.
2) Survive with friends early hatch escape -- this power got removed with the latest hatch nerf, which honestly made that ability of the keys almost worthless (or at minimum, a lot more situational than it was before). This hard nerf to the key and hatch makes it a lot less important/valuable but a lot more toxic for killers to hunt down key users.
3) The claim that add-ons (specifically white ward) shouldn't go through perks. Michael's iridescent add-on (that I can't for the life of me remember the name of) that allows insta-kills at tier 3 goes through borrowed time. There is no consistency with the add-ons not going through perks idea, and therefore shouldn't be a considered possibility.
Another argument that people often say is that, if you're so afraid of losing your items then don't use them. I think that's exceptionally stupid. Going back to point 2 mentioned earlier, there's no option for survivors to do the same to killer add-ons. Items are meant to be used to add extra spice to the game outside of the regular perks used, and give the survivor side a better chance in an arguably already killer-sided game (excluding survive with friends -- the extra level of communication makes any survive with friends lobby survivor-sided and I'll never deny the struggle any killer has against a mic'd group).
I won't deny that having the perk in the game is a good thing. My two ideas for the perk are to either 1) add a survivor perk that negates killer add-ons (I will admit I do see balance issues with this in the sense that killer add-ons are much more powerful than survivor perks, so if this were the case it'd have to be a very short duration of blocking killer add-ons) or 2) make it so that items lost to Franklin's just return to the players inventory after the match (again with balancing, I think this would have to just be whatever item a player brought into the match and to not work if they survive with some other item. I also think we'd have to revert back to the version of Franklin's where items just get eaten by the entity at the end of the timer).
Ultimately, the second idea there is my personal favorite, because I think the effects of one player should not last after the game onto another (unless it's general baby rage from getting beat too hard), but I'm one of many idiots who still play this game. Thoughts?
Comments
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Yeah, franklins is annoying, but I think you should be more grateful that the killer picked it over some other nasty perk. If I had to choose between dealing with a camping bubba with Deadlock or one with Franklins, I'd choose the one with Franklins in a heart beat.
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I think you are forgetting that the game is a 1v4. It's fine for the killer (the 1) to have things that bypass survivor tools (the 4).
Besides Killer powers (and addons) are not comparable to survivor items (and addons). There's no reason for survivors to have a perk to disable killer addons, because they are fundamentally different.
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The advantage of having items as survivor is that there are 4 of you. One survivor running a green toolbox might not win a game, but all four survivors with green toolboxes can make short work of a generator. That's a big deal.
When a killer uses franklin's on you, it's not like the item is gone forever. You can get it back. You can also find other items in toolboxes. As for the thing for survivors to negate killer addons, killer addons are so varied that it wouldn't be realistic to try to give survivors the ability to limit them, without it being horrendously bad or horrendously broken.
That being said, I like the suggestion of keeping the item after the match if it gets eaten by franklin's. It's convenient for survivors and saves BP, while not actually ever effecting the match.
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1 add-on is more powerful than 1 survivor item. That's as it should be. It's 1v4. The 1 shouldn't be balanced 1 to 1 for the survivor team, that would lead to a bad game experience for all 5.
Franklin's has already been adjusted. It no longer eats items, it just removes the charges, and you have quite a bit of time before that even happens to pick it back up.
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Just add a survivor item that when charged with enough teabags while in LoS of a killer, it drops their add ons near the last gen you tapped.
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There are strong items. Franklin’s exists to counter those. It’s a hyper niche perk that would replace a perk slot that could’ve been used for a much more meta and generally stronger perk. I don’t get the issue. Get over it?
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Franklin's is fine. It's 1 Killer Vs 4 Survivors. The killer has to equal the power of 4 Survivors or he starts with literally 0 chance. That's also why Killing helps him; it goes from Killer (4) vs Survivors (4), to Killer (4) vs Survivors (1).
Franklin's is fine. You're not losing anything you can't rebuy.
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Unless it is one of those tricked out event flashlights.
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True, but I keep those out of fear of losing them.
Eh, I would not be adverse to them reappearing in your inv afterwards, if you have one. I don't THINK they do much more than a normal flashy? Fact check me on that; I don't use flashlights because I can't FL-Save to save anyone's life. 😁
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You lost me at the word toxic. The word itself is over-used and not properly at that. Other than that, the perk itself is fine.
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Stop being toxic towards his suggestion. The perk is not fine, it is toxic. And calling words overused is also a form of toxicity. That is a triple whammy for you, good sir.
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I feel shamed and defeated. I shall stick my nose in the corner. Well played.
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Sir, I find your talking of toxic very toxic.
Also; this is a Wendy's.
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I'll say that I think Frankins is perfectly acceptable to use when there are 3-4 survivors bringing items no matter what the item is. 1-2 items probably isn't strong enough to merit Franklin's.
Also in my opinion, I think all items are strong to a varying degree. Even a brown medkit heals a full health state that might be very important. Maps allow info, flashlights for saves and escapes, toolboxes for faster gens and sabotaging, etc.
Getting 1 use out an item hurts a killer no matter what. Also survivors don't need items to be able to beat killers right now, it just applies even more pressure to killers
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I once had a extremely good survivor, who looped like a young God and sported a fancy event medkit. Franklin lead to his demise, because he wouldn't want to lose it and several times looped back to try to pick it up.
Eventually this got the better of him, and with him hooked, the team crumbled.
He would try again to get the box back, but I anticipated it and this was his last mistake.
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Looks at title.
Reads Post.
"Sigh... SSDD.." (Same #########, Different Day)
My Primary response to this... Banal, and often repeated whining about Franklin's Demise is first of all... 300 hours? Wait a while, you're young yet 😋/s. Second, There are far better targets of contention among the killer perks that have some actual merit in their debates, due to how imbalanced they are/seem. Finally 3rd... If you're gonna pick on one of the few perks the killers have that are meager counters to survivors items, FIRST get your Facts straight:
- Franklin's Demise USED to destroy items after 90 seconds instead of removing charges, giving you no opportunity to reclaim them, much less leave the game with them after the fact. This was changed with the Nemesis DLC update to only removing items charges in order to keep it from destroying Vaccine syringes, for obvious reasons.
- FD Was the ONLY counter to keys for the longest time, and while that doesn't matter as much anymore due to the changes to the hatch mechanic and survivors using less of them, it still is.
- FD is the most EASILY countered killer perk ever! Once you realize the killer has it, Simply DROP the item yourself before you enter a chase, and retrieve it afterwards, or when you need it. FD cannot harm the items charges, or affect it in any way unless the killer knocks them out of your hand with it. You can still do this, but if you leave the match without re-acquiring your item, that's on you, not the killer, even if they knock it out of your hands at the gate (it takes less time to pick your item back up and escape at the gate than it does for the killer to finish their strike recovery animation). When keys were THE go-to OP mechanic of the game, this counter made equipping FD extra useless, as survivors would simply hide their keys in a corner of the map until the hatch spawned, retrieve it and escape anyways.
- Survivors acquire Items from both the Blood Webs AND Chests in the trial grounds. Add in all of the survivor perks that center around ITEMS such as Plunderers Instinct, or Appraisal (which can give you 6 random items to pick and choose from, as well as having the bonus benefit of searching the chests a 2nd time 80% faster), or the recently updated Built to Last (which basically gives you 3x the charges on an item), it's not like LOSING an item is such a TRADGEDY that you have to come on the forums to whine about it!
- "Oh my GOD... I LOST AN EVENT ITEM TO FD! THIS PERK IS BROKEN AND NEEDS TO BE REMOVED!" Please... As if you don't already have a plethora of them in stock, and it's not like they were a "1 time unique item" that you'll never see again! Regardless EVERY survivor item is easily replaced via spending bloodpoints in the bloodweb, or collecting them from chests in the trials, and with the aforementioned survivor perks that focus on looting and even tripling your chances of getting good items to pick from out of those chests... you don't have a leg to stand on with this complaint. FD killed your item, so what? You can get more just like it easily enough that you really shouldn't be so sentimental, for crying out loud, my survivor has so many items in stock it's impossible to believe I'll ever run out. Honestly it's the add-ons I'm lacking, but that only seems fair since the killers lose add-on's every match as well, and only a black ward can save them, survivors on the other hand have both the White Ward AND Ace in the Hole to keep theirs, so there's no point in getting all butt hurt over losing your add-ons/items to a perk that counters the survivors options to keep them. Overall, Items are a dime a dozen, accept the loss as you would even if you hadn't brought in a white ward, and move on. TBH, with how easy it is to collect/replace items in this game these days, I'm surprised White Ward sees any use at all.
With these facts, I HARDLY see how Franklin's Demise is "Toxic" when there are SO many other things in this game that have so little counterplay... You picked the wrong perk to mess with my dude, FD is fine as it is, and ultimately used for WHAT it is: A MEME PERK... rarely seen, sometimes funny, and as far from meta as they get.
EDIT:
As for your suggested changes:
- HELL NO! Unlike survivors, Killers are mostly designed to be heavily add-on dependent in order to compete. Giving survivors a perk that NEGATES a killers add-on's is like saying you want to play the game with all the advantages and never give your opponents the ability to challenge you. HOW ENTITLED WOULD A PERSON HAVE TO BE TO SUGGEST THIS? You might as well ask that anyone who opposes you in game and wins must be banned from playing ever again. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, because If that's the kind of game you want to play, go back to playing your single player games with mods that make you a GOD, otherwise that kind of thinking has no place in any multiplayer game!
- Also, NO! Franklin's Demise is a trash tier perk that a survivor may encounter only ONCE out of every 500 games, and only because the killer is either testing it, meme'ing, or thought up a creative build that works with it and the killer they picked (Hag, I'm looking at you, no, Don't walk away from me... get back here damnit!). The bottom line is that it's literally the only perk that threatens Ace in the Hole and White Ward, and only IF you didn't use the easy as hell counter to it I mentioned above, or decided to run out the gate after taking a hit without picking your item back up first. While It CAN have a tactical advantage against survivors hell bent on keeping their items, that's what it was designed for, and is one of the very few reasons it's sometimes used, but overall, most survivors just don't give a damn if they lose an item to it because of how easy they are to replace, and killers don't bother to waste a perk slot on it because they have so many better alternatives. Again, you are stating that you want to jump into a Multiplayer match, with an item, but without any risk to it. The fact that FD is so RARELY USED by killers should tell you more than enough about how useful they actually find it already, but no, since you lost an item to it while you had White Ward or Ace in the Hole equipped, YOU'VE decided that it's too broken/"toxic", and must be nerfed or worse... man I don't say this often, but GROW UP!
sigh SMH
Post edited by TWiXT on5 -
The defense for Franklin's Demise is simple.
You have an item. And I don't want you to have it anymore.
WHACK!
There. Defense over.
If you are that mad about it, maybe you are crutching on your items a little too hard.
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People complain about franklins now.. whats next..shadowborn?
Franklins is a good perk when i see lobby full of medkits or flashlights. Its only used on those situations anyways.
If you get attached that much to your beamer then i dont know what to tell you.
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There is no toxic perk in this game
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I am with you on every thing you said except one thing. The introduction 300hrs playtime in one game is much for some of us I have 260 over the last 4 years and most of it was before my child was born and that isn't meant to attack you but I don't need 2k hours to understand if something is to strong or to weak that's just gatekeeping.
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It was meant to be a comical gab at the OP. I thought the "Wait a while, you're young yet" made that clear, but I probably shoulda added a /s as well. Often times commenters mock complainer posts like this for the "newb" aspects, including the hours they have in the game and how new to the forums they are. I wasn't trying to do the same here as much as I was making my own mockery of that mentality, while giving the op a little light hearted and sarcastic jab in the ribs, before I would start actually getting down the the brass tacks of the matter. No gatekeeping meant, just a poke of fun to lighten the mood. Sorry if it came off differently.
edit: I just changed it to further reflect that.
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FRANKLIN'S DEMISE
see a survivor with key in lobby take off least powerful perk put on franklin's demise find survivor wackam hookum stan on key till it disappears profit. ngl denying some one hatch feels good even if you only get one kill three escapes :)
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Oh nah don't be sorry all good reading it again later I kinda got that you probably meant it ironically you just find to many gatekeepers in this community sadly.
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Thanx much, I'm glad you understand.
Also OP @unpossible_ I never meant for my first comment to viciously tear into you in any way. Admittedly now that I read it a day later, I can see why you may think that. TBH while i did get serious in my comment, I didn't mean to come across as outright attacking you or your ideas as much as I meant to simply educate on FD's History, current usage among killers, and where I feel the majority of them stand in regards to its usefulness vs. other perks.
Believe me I know how stressful and unfair it can seem to come up against a mechanic/perk in this game without expecting it, and to be fair, that may be what makes FD kind of useful... being that no one ever expects it. However, that's absolutely no reason to rage against it to the point that you suggest such things as negating killers add-ons or nerfing an already inferior perk to being a complete waste of a perk slot. Half the fun in this game is discovering new strategies and synergies with the mechanics the game provides in order to get an unexpected edge over your competition. If equipping a Trash Tier perk allows you to do so, then I'm all for it... as should you be.
Let's at the least call a truce, and debate each other equally as players of the game we both love. I won't BS you or take any side as I feel doing so is pointless, regardless, I apologize for my MASSIVE comment that likely came across as a harsh rant against you personally, which I actually intended to be a rebuttal with some comedic elements in play, and had no ill intent or attacking nature behind it.
The Suggestions bit, did rub me the wrong way a bit tbh, but I feel that I was saying what anyone else would have without going overboard like some less level headed commenters would. Yeah it may seem mean, but honestly, you realize how ridiculous your suggestions sounded right?
No hostility, just asking that you consider the overall consequences of said suggestions, and make sure they are palatable to the average player of this game, before you decide to post them (Lord knows, I made that mistake myself too many times when I first started out, and I don't want you to suffer the same embarrassment in the long run).
I plead you read my original comment again but not as someone attacking you, but someone trying to help you understand both sides regarding the standing of FD rationally. While I did get a bit testy with your suggestions, I feel that you will have the common sense to take it in consideration before replying, and I look forward to hearing from you and seeing how you develop in these forums.
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