So, hearing BHVR's logic about the Twins nerfs really shows that they don't understand the problem.
For those who didn't catch it, someone asked the question of why BHVR nerfed Killers who are underused or weak. BHVR's response was to exemplify the changes to Twins in the midchapter PTB. They said more or less that "Twins' play rate and kill rate are low in lower MMR, but absolutely monstrous in high MMR, so we nerfed their best addons."
As a Twins main, this hurt me so bad. It is painfully, disgustingly, blisteringly obvious that BHVR has legitimately no idea what the problem with Twins' kill rate is, because it has NOTHING to do with the addons they changed. The entire reason Twins has such a high kill rate is exclusively one Twin's ability to camp hooks while the other Twin applies pressure elsewhere. That is, far and away, their biggest factor in performing so well, is their ability to camp. It's not some secret slowdown build or superslug strat or hidden tech that people don't know yet; it's camping. Twins are one of two Killers who can camp while simultaneously doing normal Killer things elsewhere, the other being Hag.
Twins is strong because they can camp. And not a single addon that BHVR touched affects their ability to camp in any meaningful way.
The fact that they targeted addons purely because they're Twins' good addons shows their complete lack of understanding of the problem. BHVR have accomplished NOTHING in the way of balancing out Twins at this supposed "high MMR" bracket because they did nothing to address the camp-heavy strat that people who are hell-bent on winning utilize. All they've done is further pigeonhole Twins into being played in this problematic, oppressive, overpowered way while the people who are interested in doing literally anything else with the Killer are shoved into a wall and kicked like their name is Victor Deshayes.
The Twins change are going to cause the exact opposite effect than they should. Twins' play rate is going to go down further because their most fun addons are worse and BHVR has demonstrated that there is no hope for this Killer, and the people who are left are the sweats who abuse this strat, so their kill rates across the board are going to go further up when the people who deliberately play in a suboptimal way for the sake of HAVING FUN no longer sully these ultra god-tier camping gamers with their peasant kill rates.
TL;DR: BHVR has no idea what to do with Twins and the Killer will continue to be both miserable to use and disgustingly strong at the same time.
Comments
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This is why their Twitter feed should be tagged respectfully of the concerns if they don't read the forums.
I agree with this 100%.
Although I don't maim twins, I do play them semi regularly, and hate camping and refuse to do it. Therefore throw lots of matches.
But I don't care bc kick the baby is funny.
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I think the biggest issue is that they have no idea of how to time things. It's like they get an idea and it just goes out whenever.
It's like when they nerfed moris then took a year to touch keys. Hold one off until you can fix the other alongside it.
Don't nerf the least popular killer until you have some form of decent improvement for them. If something's too strong, fix it when you make the killer playable in general.
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They did also say in the stream that there were other things they were looking to change for the twins on how they play and handle, and some of the issues that players face when using them or going against them.
But they also said that ghost face and legion are first, and then twins would receive some love down the line.
They also explained their reasoning behind the add-on changes. Mainly, their ability to kill when using the addons vs their ability to kill without them, and that difference was more than what they would like on any killer.
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While I still don't agree with the nerfs that the Twins addons received, it's worth mentioning that they very specifically said they looked at the kill rates with those addons equipped versus the kill rates without those addons equipped.
There's a lot to criticise about the way they're handling this killer, but blindly following stats without any further thought clearly isn't what's actually going on here.
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Tbf, this isn't exclusive to the twins. It's pretty obvious the devs don't really understand high level killer gameplay to any degree. A lot of their killer nerfs are baffling since they often straight up leave the killer in a nearly unplayable stat against high level survivors.
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I do not agree with the changes and I do want the Twins to receive buffs... and even more than buffs major QoL changes/rework.
But they did say that these are the changes they could do without development time, basically. so these changes were basically almost "free" in terms of dev time. I am not sure if these changes will essentially cause the results they want, but it's good that they know Twins need major changes. Currently, they just don't have dev time to do them.
Hopefully, "soon".
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Who's gonna tell em
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"lindly following stats without any further thought clearly isn't what's actually going on here."
Except it is. Stats are the sole reason these addons got nerfed, because the stats said they needed to be.
You know why Twins players who ran these addons had such a higher kill rate than Twins who didn't? Because every single Twins player runs them and the only ones left are the ones who don't play Twins. Those addons greatly mitigated some the most frustrating aspects of Twins, making them extraordinarily popular amongst the Twins community. I can say with 100% certainty that the majority of people who weren't running those addons on Twins were people who don't play the Killer and don't have the addons—in which case, yeah, they're not going to get a lot of kills with the Killer they don't play and haven't grinded out.
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...I think it's a little absurd to claim that. Clearly there are players who play Twins and don't use those addons.
You could argue those players aren't very skilled, or are making uninformed decisions about what addons to bring, or any number of other things - that I might agree with! - as to why their decision wasn't a good one, but unless you're going to accuse them of actively and knowingly lying to our faces, there's clearly enough data on Twins playing without those addons for them to have made a decision to begin with.
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So, we can expect Twins to get changed in 2 and a half years? Cool. BHVR still has continued to make it clear that they do not understand what the problem is, so whatever these changes are, I and anyone who plays Twins have zero reason to believe they'll be anywhere close to the changes that need to happen.
I get that your favorite food for breakfast, lunch, and dinner is the heel of BHVR's boot, but look at everything they've done to the Killer since they're released. They clearly have no understanding of what makes Twins so problematic, and continue to demonstrate that same lack of understanding. Why should I have any confidence in whatever changes they have planned for this Killer?
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It still solves the issue, doesn't it? If they want the numbers to fo lower with the addon, even if 98% of players use it, they still nerf these addons and get the result they need.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like changing stuff based solely on stats, but what you say here makes no difference, right?
You can argue that good Twins players can get those numbers without the addon, but you can't prove it from a stat perspective (which is what they are supposedly looking at)
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I get that your favorite food for breakfast, lunch, and dinner is the heel of BHVR's boot
Appreciate the compliment but that's actually not true- I ######### talk the devs quite often when I'm with friends. When I'm on a platform when the devs can see my comments, however, I tend to turn that into actual feedback so they can- you know- improve their game?
Foreign concept, I know.
I'd appreciate it if you could try your best to not attempt an insult only to fail miserably. It's not a good look for you x
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No, it solves no problems because the addons aren't the problem.
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funnily enough, by nerfing the Add Ons that dont relate to camping, they just made camping the even more optimal strategy.
its like that time where they nerfed Deathslingers attack after aiming down sights because bad Slingers always used ADS spam to slowly zone out Survivors, but then removed everything else from his ability and turned him into a killer that needs to slowly zone out survivors to catch them...
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so it seems like if they are nerfing twins cause high level twins have a high kill rate that means they are trying to balance killers for high skill game play but not survivors....... awesome
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You find me five people who consistently play Twins and don't have Toy Sword and either Tiny Fingernail or Madeleine's Scart grafted into their skin and I will find you 5 liars. If someone isn't running those addons on Twins, they either have no idea what they're doing, haven't levelled up the Killer yet, or both.
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Problem: Twins's kill rate is too high at high MMR
Solution: nerf the addon that everyone uses at high MMR, reducing their powerlevel a tiny bit, thus making Twins less viable at high MMR.
Which part am I missing?
Again, I don't agree with the change, I'm saying just because you say everyone uses the addon, who knows it's great, doesn't mean it won't solve this particular fact they do consider a problem.
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Problem: Twins' camping makes them incredibly strong
Solution: Nerf addons that have little to no effect on their ability to camp
Do you see the issue?
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What you just said makes no sense. No one talked about camping. Did I miss something?
It's been said that Twins that know what they are doing are using this addon. So the nerf will affect them. Do they camp or don't camp doesn't matter? They DO use the addon, which (according to you) doesn't help them camping. So they either don't camp or don't want to camp. Even if they do camp, the addon still makes them weaker.
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Did you not read anything in my original post? My issue with the addon nerfs is that the addons aren't the problem. Camping is. That's why the changes won't do anything, because it doesn't address the issue. Yes, weakening their addons counts as a nerf. But it's not a meaningful nerf. Sure, their kill rate might go down by 1 or 2 percent. But nerfing those addons doesn't address the core issue.
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Yes, but they know it. They said in the QnA that the changes they've done required almost no devtime. These were changes that the designers could do themselves by tweaking the numbers. Addressing Twins in a meaningful way will require a lot of dev and designer effort which they do not have atm.
I personally think they should've not even touched the addons, if you ask me, BUT, since high kill rates of Twins was an issue for them, they decided to nerf these addons.
Is this a good change? Probably not. Will it achieve the goal? Most likely. Is the goal dumb? I think so. Is it my job to decide that? No. :D
Also, I did not react to your original post, but to your comment
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I consider all Twins nerfs a containment measure, they made something thats disgusting to play against and nobody likes (not even a lot of Killer mains like how sluggy they are) and I believe if they were to become meta and picked a lot (like 10-15 pick rate) the game would die and fast.
To avoid that until the rework they have to make sure they are incredible clunky, weak and boring to play as posible so almost nobody picks them, whenever you see a Twins nerf is not "BHVR HATES KILLERS!!" its more of a "If this abomination gets momentum it could kill the game".
Imo they should just killswitch them until the rework, I believe its the less annoying solution.
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... Wait. So, you agree that these changes are pointless and shouldn't have happened, meaning we are in full agreement over the reasons as to why I'm so frustrated with the changes and their logic behind it. So... why are we here?
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Let's be honest with ourselves here, man: If BHVR were half that clever, they wouldn't have released Twins in such a garbage state to begin with. Plus, if you watched the QnA, you'd know that how fun they are to play against has nothing to do with why they were nerfed. They nerfed them because the stats said they were OP and no other reason. Fun factor was not, well, a factor. Which further disproves your claim.
That's not even including the fact that Twins is most definitely NOT the reason that DBD has been bleeding players since like September anyways. So even if that were the reason they nerfed Twins, it's not working.
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They do not play their own game and I haven't seen evidence to the contrary.
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They focus too much on stat sheets, and not why those numbers are the way they are
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BHVR released them in that state because they had to release something, its just they didnt have enough crunch time to fix all the bugs plus the problem with them is not bugs, its how campy and sluggy their playstyle is, they created a monster. One problem BHVR has is they have something in mind and its awesome but they dont really see the thing from all angles, I dont think they expected players to mass slug to such degree, this is a rather common ocurrence (PH blocking cages and being able to see the auras and rush to camp or Deathslinger zoning for free with raise/low aim are examples of how the comunity finds stuff BHVR overlooks).
What they say in the QA may or may not be true or they may be sharing only part of the info, and in any case they nerfing the best performing addons at high MMR does help my claim, if word of those addons being very strong spreads it may entice some people to play Twins more, which is what I believe they dont want.
Im not saying the game is bleeding players because of Twins, nowhere in my post says that, what I did say is IN AN HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION if they were to become meta and picked a lot it would kill the game because they are awful to play against and the best way to avoid that HYPOTETHICAL SITUATION is to nerf them to the ground.
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"BHVR released them in that state because they had to release something, its just they didnt have enough crunch time to fix all the bugs"
X to doubt
"plus the problem with them is not bugs, its how campy and sluggy their playstyle is, they created a monster."
So, again, if they're so clever as to keep nerfing Twins to avoid a Keter-class death-of-the-game scenario, why did they release them with such unhealthy fundamental flaws?
"in any case they nerfing the best performing addons at high MMR does help my claim, if word of those addons being very strong spreads it may entice some people to play Twins more, which is what I believe they dont want."
[Twins' play rate has been extraordinarily low even though they've been in the game for a year and everyone knows how they work and what their addons do]
X TO DOUBT
"IN AN HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION if they were to become meta and picked a lot it would kill the game because they are awful to play against and the best way to avoid that HYPOTETHICAL SITUATION is to nerf them to the ground."
Fun and unfun is subjective, but if you ask me, there are far more frustrating things for Survivors to go against than a Killer whose kit forces them to slug and camp most of the time, a lot of which are far more prevalent in games. Including, but not limited to:
-Zoning Killers
-Killers who slug and camp not because they have to, but because they want to
-Zoning Killers who slug and camp not because they have to, but because they want to
Like, I get it, Twins camps and slugs a lot. But Killers have been camping and slugging since the game came out. It's not like Twins invented the strat and it's not like the strat wasn't strong and prevalent before, during, and after Twins' release. Frankly, if slugging and camping is what makes Twins unfun, then they're one of the least offensive Killers in this game, all things considered. I'd rather get slugged and camped by a Killer who doesn't shut down loops for free than a Killer who does. Hell, I'm at a point where I LIKE going against Twins now because in my head I'm thinking, "Phew, at least it's not another zoning Killer."
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Thing is, there is a very good argument to be made that a specific killer is capable of camping so well because those addons give them a slight edge. They said they didnt want to nerf Twins, because they feel Twins would be too weak otherwise. There are some adjustments to be made to maps themselves(like, consider the entirety of the basement, including it's staircase as a hook, so Twins cant stand on the stairs and camp), but changing Twins' basekit is only gonna be bad.
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Yeah its like saying that bubba using his best add-ons influences his ability to camp hooks. Reality is that even before or after his changes, he is same at defending hooks in past & present. so your argument is completed flawed. Killers that are stronger tend camp hooks less because they can actually have confidence in taking chases and winning chases.
Awhile back, they made change that increased recovery time of victor when downing a survivor. Did that do anything regards to camping hook and slugging for twins? Nope. It just encourages and pigeonhole twins to do it more because they now they're even worse at main game by not doing so. BVHR being clueless as usual. At least they're honest in their explanation for why they're changing.
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I find it hilarious they want to nerf Twins for being "monsters" yet the stats they showed, shows Twins is the LEAST played killer, and has the third lowest killrate. But they need a nerf lol. Doesn't that mean every single killer needs a nerf besides Trickster and Nurse, going by the infallible stats? There is no logic at all in nerfing a killer with the third worst killrate in the game. It is nonsensical.
If they're so good at camping people out, they'd probably have a kill rate closer to Bubba and not freaking Trickster. Oh, and what happened to "we don't balance around high MMR." I guess they do when it concerns nerfing killers lol.
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Twins being "good at camping" and Bubba being "good at camping" are two different things. Bubba is good at camping in that his camping is hard to counter. Twins are good at camping in that they can camp the hook while still walking around doing normal Killer things. So, like, I totally buy the idea that "good" or "high MMR" Twins have insanely high kill rates. The tradeoff for camping is that you're stuck at the hook not pressuring Survivors if they're doing gens, and Twins can just... ignore that. That's HUGE. And something does need to be done about it. But the problem is, the changes they implemented don't do anything about it at all. They just make Twins feel even worse and demoralize the people who play them even more. They accomplish nothing and shouldn't have happened.
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Never got back around to this. Good job proving nothing, I guess, but try not to derail here. I'd still like you to answer my question: With how Twins has been adjusted and changed in the year they've been out, why should I trust BHVR to make the right call whenever these changes come out? Just because changes are coming doesn't mean GOOD changes are coming. If anything, I'm dreading the changes they have in store because with the track record for Twins updates so far, I have every reason to believe they're going to suck.
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The problem is, the addons DON'T give Twins an edge in camping because they don't affect what makes Twins' camping good. What makes Twins' camping good is the ability to dump Victor underneath a hook and then run around with Charlotte applying standard pressure. None of the addons they changed had any effect on that whatsoever. The base kit is what needs to be changed because the base kit is what's problematic.
Also, the whole "standing on the basement stairs and camping" strat has been gone for months. I don't know when they changed in (unsurprising seeing as how like three-fifths of Twins' changes are undocumented in any patch notes), but Charlotte can no longer unbind or switch to Victor unless she is further than 16 meters away from the basement hook, just like with normal hooks.
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Nerfing or buffing isnt to increase dlc sales which is basically what your implying they are trying to balance the game overall and I am one of the few twins players. They need some adjustments and while the addon nerfs sucked for us twins players it was somewhat understandable. Twins are the least played do to how complex their play style is with virtually no upside. We do need better gameplay aside from the slugfest that we normally have to indure i wish we could a different way with victor he really needs ai but i cant see that ever happening. Twins when played well is extremely oppresive it just takes a lot of work and the survivors need to make a lot of mistakes. The one thing twins have going for them is players lack of games against us. If a huge buff ever comes to the twins i could see that switching but i like where they are now being as hard as they are it keeps a lot of the games feeling like your an elite. Nurse isnt even as hard and she at least has a training wheel addon.
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Not sure where I implied anything about DLC sales at all. If it is somehow implied, then it is entirely unintentional because I genuinely have no clue what you're talking about.
I'm stating the devs are nerfing a character who statistically has the third lowest kill rate in the game and is the least played.
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thats great i made my comment about the thinly veiled insult you attempted to make in your comment which was therefore entirely on topic and not derailing the thread, since youre the one that made it in the first place in your comment.
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First of all seeing how many MANY bugs the Twins patch had at release either they didnt have enough time to fix them before release or there was something weird going at the studio like the entire team getting COVID or a strike or something else because the amount of bugs and overlooked stuff wasnt normal, even for them, I worked as software developer and deadlines are very very strict, usually before releasing a patch or a software tool people have to do a ton of overtime to get it right and even with all that overtime is usually not enough, sadly this is a common thing in software developing companies, especially in game developing where deadlines are vital (nobody cares if Windows wathever releases 2 months later but a game getting delayed 2 months? thats a disaster).
In any case Twins main problem wasnt the bugs, but how sluggy they turned to be, the amount of bugs is just a sign they needed to put more work on them before being release.
if they're so clever as to keep nerfing Twins to avoid a Keter-class death-of-the-game scenario, why did they release them with such unhealthy fundamental flaws?
Because its not the first time they have an idea, release it and the comunity finds something else (usually more efficient and unfun) with that idea, you have a ton of examples of this, Pyramid Head being able to see his cages+no DS+no BT turned him into the best camper its just one example and Im sure they didnt expect Twins to turn into the insane slugging experience they are now, there is no way they designed the Killer with such gameplay in mind, same as I dont think they had in mind Charlotte perma body blocking Hexes at release while dormant or Lockers making you completely inmune to Victor (both tings had to be changed).
I can give more examples of "creative" gameplay strategies the community had and BHVR had to nerf or rework because they overlooked them, for both sides like old Odd Bulbs, mass old Soul Guard, Deathslinger free zoning, Legion Moonwalking and a long etc, all those have in common being extremely unfun things that got overlooked by BHVR, same as Twins being such mass sluggers.
But Twins needs an entire rework, the whole gameplay design is flawed, its not like Odd Bulbs which got fixed by tweaking the numbers or Soul Guard with a CD, you cant fix Twins with small tweaks to CDs, stuns and the likes, they need the Freddy treatment.
[Twins' play rate has been extraordinarily low even though they've been in the game for a year and everyone knows how they work and what their addons do]
Because they are awful and they must stay awful until they are reworked lest people start playing them, any time something starts to get momentum it will be nerfed.
Fun and unfun is subjective, but if you ask me, there are far more frustrating things for Survivors to go against than a Killer whose kit forces them to slug and camp most of the time, a lot of which are far more prevalent in games. Including, but not limited to:
-Zoning Killers
-Killers who slug and camp not because they have to, but because they want to
-Zoning Killers who slug and camp not because they have to, but because they want to
"Fun and unfun is subjective"... yes and no, it is subjective but in a game that revolves around fixing gens and being chased staying slugged for half of the game waiting to get picked up only to be slugged again by a goblin at match speed 3 is not very fun, people dont get into this game to experience that, Twins is consistently the only Killer I see where people DC or suicide on first hook in a lot of trials, I dont see any other Killer getting as many DCs and suicides as I see against them, its very obvious people despise playing against them.
About the 3 things you put as example, sure camping is annoying and they are already working on something to curb it a bit too, the diference is camping lasts for 2 minutes while getting slugged lasts for 4 minutes not counting when you get picked up and downed again in less than 30 seconds, people complain about camping because it takes away the posibility of playing for 2 minutes, slugging does the same for double the time, zoning can be annoying but at least a lot of times there are counterplays and it doesnt deprive you of playing the game, other sluggers sure are annoying, especially the ones who do it to troll but at least they are excedingly rare unlike getting that from Twins.
X to doubt all you want, the fact is Twins is universally hated and for some reason BHVR just keeps nerfing and nerfing them, even some of the nerfs are directed to make them clunkier to play as increasing the time it takes to switch from one to the other, it looks like they dont want people playing them that much.
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You just have to accept that the devs don’t really know what they’re doing when it comes to balance and will probably miss the mark on most things they attempt.
All we can do is keep offering help and hope that something sticks.
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Sure, continue deflecting about an offhanded jab. That's totally what the thread is about. One hundred percent. The entire reply section is full of people hotly debating that singular line.
You know what the thread is about. Answer the question or admit that you can't.
What's that thing people say on Twitter? "Cope, seethe, mald"?
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I literally don't care about the topic of the thread, I'm simply defending myself. You were the one to make the comment and thus I'm using the thread where the comment was made to defend myself- regardless of what other people are on about.
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You certainly cared enough to come on here the first place with your snarky "Who's gonna tell em" reply like the screenshot you showed is any reassurance of anything.
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That's a whole lot of writing to propagate your tinfoil hat theory that can be simply explained away by "DBD's coding is atrocious" and "There are far worse and far more prevalent things in this game than Twins".
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correct
then my interest died and i wouldnt have replied were it not for that insult.
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So, you admit you can't come up with a good rebuttal? Because if you can't, I'd rather do something more productive than debate an insult that did a big meanie bo-beanie to your feelings. Let's not waste each other's time here, ay?
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bold of you to assume this is at all wasting my time.
why should you trust they get twins right? i have no clue, because i cannot change your bias.
i could point to killers like doctor and wraith and hag, to show they can make good changes to keep the spirit of a power in-tact while helping the killer. i could also point to freddy and billy to show that they cant.
they are very inconsistent when it comes to these things, so it's a question really of how well legion + ghostface come out before anyone can effectively make up their minds
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@GoodBoyKaru Don't. We get it, he was out of line. We do appreciate you and what you do, even if you tend to be a snarky ######### who occasionally posts cute animal pics. Now drop the subject. Shut up. They're not worth it.
@fblurbg Shut up. We get it, you had a bad day and you want to take it out on people while maintaining a thin veneer of propriety. Now drop the ######### subject before I ping the mods with both of your posts and get us all banned. Be a dick somewhere else, or go hug someone who loves you. Your choice.
Tl;dr: shut the ######### up, both of you. You're both pretty, we appreciate and love both of you. Stop being dicks and stop dragging this out; it's a bad look for both of you.
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ok thats great
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"i could point to killers like doctor and wraith and hag, to show they can make good changes to keep the spirit of a power in-tact while helping the killer. i could also point to freddy and billy to show that they cant."
The differences between those Killers and Twins is that BHVR did not repeatedly demonstrate their inability to make good changes. The vast majority of the changes to those Killers were good, healthy ones. Yes, they still have problems, like Hag's ability to camp without camping like Twins can, or Wraith's overreliance on an uninteractive hit-and-run playstyle, but overall these Killers have received changes that make them feel better and/or buff them without making them game-ruiningly obnoxious. It's the exact opposite in the case of Twins.
Let me put it this way: If they announced Doctor changes tomorrow, I'd look at their overall good track record for Doctor and be like "I'm sure that they won't be so bad." If they announced changes for Oni, a Killer who has barely been touched since release, I would be pessimistic since I don't have much faith in BHVR as a whole, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of good tidings for the samurai guy. If they announced changes for Trickster, whose track record is one of the most spectacularly disastrous in this video game, I'd get nervous. Twins is very much on Trickster's level in that regard, so I have zero confidence in what they'll do with them.
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The vast majority of the changes to those Killers were good, healthy ones. Yes, they still have problems, like Hag's ability to camp without camping like Twins can, or Wraith's overreliance on an uninteractive hit-and-run playstyle, but overall these Killers have received changes that make them feel better and/or buff them without making them game-ruiningly obnoxious. It's the exact opposite in the case of Twins.
But this absolutely was not always the case. Wraith himself received so many changes before, and hardly any of them were effective at making him better and not add-on reliant. Then he got that old-Windstorm (lunge after power) made basekit, and then they gave him that current-Windstorm basekit buff which finally pushed him into being good. Before that, he got meaningless buffs and a couple really stupid nerfs. A bit like Twins, really.
So while I don't think they will fix all of Twins' issues I do have some faith in it.
What I do not have faith in, is the length of time it will take to make these changes.
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