Kill Switch update: We have temporarily disabled The Legion due to an issue that allows for infinite power spam. The Legion will be re-enabled once this issue is fixed.

http://dbd.game/killswitch

Boon cooldown mechanic

Mineguy
Mineguy Member Posts: 318
edited January 2022 in Feedback and Suggestions

Boons are too strong. Well not really. 2 out of 3 are pretty much just okay but the third one is op. We all know which one I mean... And the nerf in the Q&A stream is a bad joke. It can stay by 100% but change something else. Give it a cooldown.

When a killer destroyed a boon it should not be possible to place it right away again. Give it a cooldown of like 30-45 seconds.

Post edited by EQWashu on

Comments

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,801

    To be fair, I think it probably needs both. The current healing speed is very, very strong, even toning it down by a few seconds as they're doing is going to be an improvement.

    I'd be on board for a cooldown. I'd even be okay with only CoH having a cooldown, since at least the other two need to be near the killer to work, so reblessing is going to be a risk.

  • Advorsus
    Advorsus Member Posts: 1,033

    Boons themselves don't really need a cooldown as only 1 of them is a problem. COH should just be unlocks the self heal action, without any bonuses to heal speed. And healing itself should be capped at 100% speed

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 4,688

    Easy solution: If a Boon gets stomped out, at least 1 gen needs to be made before it can be placed again. Doesn't have to be done by the person who placed the totem, just... at all. Would completely stop the exploitable aspects of CoH, make it worth destroying, and still not treat it as harshly as Hex totems (which it should be, but apparently that would be heresy)

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,801

    Alongside completely stopping the exploitable aspects of CoH, it would completely ruin Shadow Step and Exponential, which would quickly become laughably terrible perks there'd be no reason to ever run.

    It'd also be abandoning the intended counterplay to boons instead of fixing the current flaws with that counterplay, but that's a separate discussion.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2022

    Hex totems can be destroyed in the first 30 seconds of the game with zero counterplay from the killer, and can't be used by 4 different players in the match. They also can't be replaced when destroyed. I think my suggestion is extremely generous compared to that.

    TBH it is CoH that is the most problematic one, but as the devs have shown with its upcoming nerf, they don't even understand what it exploitable about it.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,801

    Hexes are not boons, and boons are not hexes. They're different designs with different intents that require different balancing.

    I also actually agree that hexes are weak! I've posted about it quite a lot, it's just not relevant to the topic of boons. Beyond both involving the totem mechanic, they aren't directly comparable.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 4,688

    You're right, Hexes actually punish the killer far more and half of them aren't even worth the risk. A lot of boons are kinda meme tier, but CoH singlehandedly made the mechanic disgustingly broken due to the concessions it gets vs hexes. They are similar enough to the point that boons flat out can override hexes, and directly counter perks like pentimento just by existing (since survivors avoid doing dull bones now.) The ripple effects they cause are far worse for balance than hexes ever were, even at their "worst" (pre-undying nerf.)

    Even without taking CoH specifically into account, the other problems with their implimentation like being able to cover multiple floors, killers needing to waste precious time to remove them, the fact that up to 4 can be placed around the map at a time, and their impact on killer map pressure (something most killers suffer from to begin with) make them pretty not ok.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,801

    Gliding past the false equivalence to hexes again, you are touching on part of the problem, so let's focus on that part.

    Things like going through multiple floors actually are a problem, and it's why I'm kinda bummed to hear the devs aren't looking that closely at the mechanic as a whole right now. The way a hex is supposed to work is pretty simple- using Shadow Step as an example...

    You spend the fourteen seconds not on a generator (plus however many seconds it takes to find a totem, though that's often not many) setting up your stealth field to help you out next time you're in a chase with the killer. When that does happen, you run towards your totem and loop in a general radius around it- at some point during this, the killer will notice that you have a boon totem up. Two things happen from there- either you go down because lost scratch marks is a detriment but not an unwinnable scenario for the killer, at which point the killer snuffs your boon and then goes to hook you, forcing you to wait out being saved and then go spend another 14 seconds blessing, or you do successfully get the killer to drop chase... at which point the killer can choose to snuff your boon, at least gaining either that same 14 seconds or the knowledge that you're playing with three perks until that 14 seconds is spent.

    There are problems with this setup, even setting aside that CoH doesn't require the killer to be nearby (which is part of why it's so broken rn). Elevation is the biggest one- a boon on another floor requires a lot more time from the killer, and there are too many totem spots like that for it to just be considered a prime boon spot instead of a problem. There's also the problem that the audio cue for the killer is pretty close to the boon itself, I'd like to see that expanded a little.

    Those problems, however, do not point to boons being broken. That hypothetical up there is a very good idea for the game, and I'd like to see them play out like that more often.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2022

    With your shadowstep example, all that really says is that its a bad perk. there are tons of bad perks, and these imbalances are just proof that they often don't understand what makes a perk meta or not. Think about how many perks there are, and then how many you never see (outside of an occasional player memeing.)

    CoH being so good while being tied to the same totems as its less fortunate siblings creates a massive balancing paradox: You now need to nerf already mediocre perks to address what makes the good perk turn into a broken good perk. I'm glad you agree on a lot of the oversights in boons in general, but if CoH isn't redesigned entirely (removing the self care, or removing the healing speed buff. It just can't have both with how boons work atm) then the boon system itself needs to be changed. Actually talking about the oversights, remember how they used to be able to overlap and stack in the PTB? :D

    Also back to things we disagree on, I still say that Boons are much more parallel to Hexes in terms of design than you say. They even carry the same "strong perks ruining it for bad perks" balance with stuff like third seal being absolutely pointless compared to the impact ruin/devour/haunted/etc can have. Pentimento feels like an attempt at trying to make parity between the two, but it has considerably more counterplay (just don't do bones) meanwhile killers can't even break a blessed totem. In the end, a lot of the differences between boons and hexes is, ironically, a lot of QoL improvements that killers wanted on hexes for years. That might be why so many killers have such sour grapes over how free boons feel.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,801

    To be clear, yes, CoH needs a lot more changes, but you don't need to nerf its weaker counterparts at all. That seems like a kind of weird thing to say, honestly- in what way is Shadow Step or Exponential affected if you cap self healing speeds, or you lower the numbers on CoH, or you give CoH its own unique cooldown, or any of the other things that would actually affect CoH and not boons as a general concept?

    Boons aren't continual slowdown if you could break the totems, which is part of what they're designed for- because again, they're not hexes. They're limited range, they take time to set up, they're all on one totem instead of being spread out, they're not active at the start... the design differences between boons and hexes are greater than the design similarities.

    Also, Shadow Step is pretty good, I wouldn't call it a bad perk. It's worth bringing but it's not broken, the problem is more that survivor meta perks are so strong right now there's no reason to bring something that's just pretty good.

  • Nathan13
    Nathan13 Member Posts: 6,983

    I've always suggested a minute cooldown, but other than that the boons aren't that strong. Mainly on indoor maps though.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 4,688

    Its logical when you're willing to acknowledge parity between the two systems: The Undying nerf was done specifically because people hated ruin-undying on blight, but in turn it nerfed every other hex totem since they could rely on undying to try to extend their usage possibility. Thrill of the hunt got nerfed similarly as well. Regardless of how you feel when comparing them, if you consider them apples and oranges respectively, they're still both fruit. And the way the devs have been handling them in terms of feedback and backlash, it is extremely clear that they are being biased in balancing them.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 4,688

    welp, this thread got thrown into the graveyard.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,801

    Right, but the Undying nerf is the perfect example- what they didn't do when they nerfed Undying was reduce the number of dull totem spawns, or make cleansing faster, or show survivors hex auras, or anything that would help with what old Undying was doing but demolish weaker hexes. What they did was change the effects of Undying itself, and that's what they should be doing with CoH- not make sweeping changes to the largely functional but slightly flawed boon system, but change the perk itself.

    The second point is where it kind of falls apart- Undying is a support totem and CoH isn't, so nerfing CoH itself won't actually indirectly nerf the other boons because they don't have in-tandem effects in that way.

    Also, Thrill was reworked, not nerfed, and it did that to be a more fair and slightly more potent counter to boons. People sleep on Thrill, it's not worse now, it's actually worth running.

  • Taingaran
    Taingaran Member Posts: 289

    The problem with the boon totems is the lack of counterplay. Survivors are not afraid if the killer finds their totem. A boon cooldown of 60-90 seconds would be nice. This would give the killers an incentive to look for the totem.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389

    Boons don't have counterplay. That's the crux of the whole problem.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,801

    People keep saying that, but of course they do. I've been having a whole conversation about their bare-bones counterplay and how I think it needs work, so clearly it exists- and that's not even mentioning the specific perks you can bring to help counter the mechanic as a whole or the individual perks themselves.

    We can argue about how fun or effective that counterplay is, but the one thing we can't argue is whether or not it exists.