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Have killers ACTUALLY been nerfed that much???
When I ask this question, I'm referring to OVERALL killer nerfs, not specific killer nerfs (i.e. well Bubba got a cooldown on his chainsaw so the devs hate killers)
Honestly, I think that when you look at it honestly Survivor and Killers have been roughly nerfed at the same rate. When I think of OVERALL nerfs to both sides, for survivors there was the HUGE exhaustion nerf (RIP me getting Lithe twice in a chase), the nerf to self care, the nerf to healing in general in the same patch as the self care nerf, MoM nerf, DS nerf, balanced landing nerf, all 3 ultra rares are practically useless (sorry those count for survivors because survivors share them unlike killers whose add ons are all different)
On the killer side, there was a Bloodlust nerf, Hex: Undying was nerfed I think, and......? idk it's been a while since I've played killer but I can't think of many nerfs that across the board has affected ALL killers and not specific adds ons or power of individual killers. I'm sure there's something I'm not remembering but like....I just find it funny when people create all these threads saying the only nerf survivors have received was like DS and MoM and just completely disregard everything else that's been changed since the game started
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If you count from 2016, killers have only been receiving buffs overall.
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its less that killers have been getting nerfed, and more survivors power creeping over the killers. because if you've played the game since the old days, killers were so awful to play back then. they've actually been doing a lot of small things over time to make them better. its just that some things have grown and scaled disproportionately.
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Something you're overlooking. Survivors are just reskins of each other. So technically, it's just one survivor vs twenty six killers. Any nerf to a survivor perk affects them all. With killers, you have to take into account twenty six different power sets, and their add ons. So, an 'overall' look at nerfs on the killers part might seem 'small' in comparison.
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I feel like one of the reasons is because across the board, no, killers definitely have not been nerfed as much as survivors (worth remembering how the game started though, so understandably so). However, individual nerfs feel like there's a lot more, because survivors can only be nerfed across the board while killers can be nerfed through add-ons or powers or terror radiuses or movement speeds, etc. there's a lot more to killers than there are to survivors, so while theres more to buff there's more to nerf.
also, sometimes those nerfs can feel... unjustified. anger tends to make things stick in the brain more.
like yeah we can talk about the time ds got nerfed to a 3 second stun but people remember it being buffed to 5 seconds + enduring changed right after too (even though with head on in the game, it kinda needed this, but i digress).
its 3am i hope this makes sense?
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No no that's exactly my point. Because survivors don't have individuality, everything that gets nerfed affects every survivor. On the killer side of the game, there haven't been many nerfs that affect the killer base as a whole, just individual tweaks to powers or add ons.
So when people complain about the "number" of killer nerfs, well duh because killers have powers as well as adds on that can be nerfed and they vary for each killer so it's gonna feel like it's more when it's really not overall
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Nah. There used to be full on infinites, no bloodlust and windows didn't block after 3 uses. You couldn't kick generators and there were way more pallets. On top of that, stealth was still the preferred way of playing. So you'd have first find them and then deal with all of the other stuff.
Oh, and you couldn't hook anyone. Sabo squads made Iron Grasp a meta perk. Once a hook was gone, it was gone. On the other side you used to be able to Mori someone on first down and it was only like 10k points to pip iirc but there were less score events.
So in that sense, the tweaks nowadays are nothing compared to the gifts killers have been given, but I'd argue survivors have gotten the nerf bat the most.
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Killers have not been nerfed as a whole, but Survivors have been given new tools at a disparate rate. The only really good Killer perk to come out in a while was Pain Resonance, and maybe Starstruck. And you can work around Starstruck.
Survivors got things like Circle of Healing, which completely gutted an entire Killer playstyle.
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I think that second paragraph's a little disingenuous. It's easy to list off survivor nerfs because it's one role/type of character, and survivor has been HORRIFICALLY busted for the majority of this game's lifespan, but killers don't have the same luxury. Pretty much every killer power has received changes at this point, with just as much buffs as there are nerfs. Pretending that they don't matter because "they're individual killer nerfs, not global killer nerfs" is stupid because killers are unique. Asking for global killer nerfs is asking for nerfs to the concept of a powerless M1 killer.
Problematic, and even just strong things about killer have been nerfed just as much as survivors. Moris. True facecamping. The addition of many, many new and survivor-sided maps. Dedicated servers and hit validation. Hillbilly. Nurse. Spirit. Pig. Deathslinger. Freddy. Legion. Twins. Wraith. PH. Pinhead. It's more complicated to nerf killer by design because of how many unique killers there are, and besides, just like survivors, pretty much every busted thing killers have is gone now. The only things left are Tombstone Piece, Alchemist's Ring, NOED and arguably facecamping.
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I strongly disagree you’re point about COH. And it was also just nerfed.
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Wasn't really a good nerf.
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Except it did objectively gut an entire playstyle, the hit-and-run playstyle. I've ran sloppy butcher and nurse's calling on wraith and ghostface, but now i've completely ditched that playstyle due to the infinite fast heals they can do with that one perk. It nerfed healing times by increasing the time to heal by like 4 or 2 seconds. I'd say that's a pretty pathetic nerf.
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All that was way broken and need to be fixed.
I love how people try to point out the devs fixing clearly broken stuff on the survivor side as dev been killer sided. And acting like we should be grateful the infinites and instant flashlight are gone like thanks for removing broken stuff that was there for years with no counterplay.
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Nah, back when I was playing it I didn't think of any of it as broken. You had 3 killers. Trapper, Wraith or Hillbilly. Your job as Trapper was to run the survivors into traps, Hillbilly was just fast and there was no cooldown on his ability and Wraith was...well. He was there too.
They didn't plan around looping 'cause looping wasn't a thing. It just didn't come up until survivor hitboxes were discovered to be smaller than killers so you could hug the loops to get a little distance. I think that when they added more killers that didn't have instant stopping power or one hit downs they had to rearrange the game. Keep in mind if I trapped you and I played a Mori you were out. Your player skill had nothing to do with it.
Game was a lot slower and more deliberate too. I'd like to revert all the changes and go back to the way it was, but increase all 110% killers to 115% and 115% to 120%. It would change the entire game in a positive way.
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There's really no way to play this game straight any more as killer. You either slug and tunnel or just play like you don't care. No middle ground.
Just finished a RPD map that was booned and shadows stepped and boiled over. Give me a break. It's just impossible.
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A killer playstyle used to be to hit and run and then pick off injured Survivors. This was the primary wraith playstyle. CoH guts that entirely. You cannot leave the Survivors alone. It forces tunnelling in a lot of scenarios.
And that "nerf" was something like 3 seconds or less, depending. It did not stop or solve the problem at all.
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What if all 4 survivors are running COH?? You gonna tunnel them all at the same time??
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That is the thing about CoH. You only need one. One CoH can heal any number of Survivors any number of times. You do not even need four. And there is no way of knowing which one brought it. So your only choice is to tunnel anyone that is injured before you can boon-heal again.
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Something people need to factor in is that survivor started off extremely overwhelmingly overpowered back in 2016. Yes, killer did have problematic things as well like 0-hook Moris and 7 blink Nurse. But that is a large part of the reason why survivors have needed a lot more nerfs, because a lot more busted things needed to be removed or changed entirely.
Nowadays, the balance is pretty decently even-sided for everything except some of the highest levels of play that almost no one ever plays at anyways.
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No, killers haven't been overly nerfed. I'd actually argue that killer is in a relatively good spot right now. You'll generally walk away with at least a 2k if you run a good build and play well. There were times in the past when that wasn't always the case.
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Survivors have been nerfed more than killers.
If you've played this game since release you'd see this, know this and understand why were at 3+ survivor kills per game for some time now:
The problem is socialisation and tribalism. The devs have created an entire genre of killers that know if they complain and whine, will have their thoughts heard. The killer dominated forums just compound this issue.
There is absolutely no space for survivors to push back. Hell, even the marketing for the game is all around killers, survivors are just a reskinned foot note.
The problem is the devs have allowed a community that is heavily biased. So OP like this will ALWAYS get shot down.
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This is so far off base, it's sad the reality you think you are living in.
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Well, when I say they give preferential treatment to survivors, I meant since I joined the game. Since the 5th anniversary. As in this last year. Which is the most relevant year when talking about the current trends of the game... Which is what we are talking about when talking about the current trends of the game.
So... Yeah, hope you are now less confused about that argument?
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The fact killers receiving many many buffs and survivors are STILL thousand step forward is ridiculous.
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So you see that part where I mention socialisation and tribalism.
See the part where I post stats to show how killers are getting 3+ kills per game.
Note that human beings will work harder to maintain a belief system than investigate truth.
Interestingly 'so far off base' comment could elude to a personal insult which would also demonstrate that you lack critical thinking skills.
Do you actually have anything for me?
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Overall, Killers are at a good place right now. Individually, a big amount of Killers are useless
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The official kill rates aren't at 3 kills per match though. They're are 2 kills.
2 kills which could be achieved by getting 2 hooks over the whole match.
Balancing around kills is the same as the Victory Cube. We all know why it was replaced by Emblems.
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I'm pretty sure you can secure 2 kills with bubba, and +1 with some good perks no matter what.
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Not killer nerfs so much as survivors being buffed, which is frustrating as a survivor main as my queues are so long lately as nobody wants to play killer at peak times
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There are literally 0 kill rates at 3+(75%+) however there were 2(Nurse and Trickster) sub 50% kill rates which means 2 killers average 1 kill per game...
That's also before the 3rd lowest one The Twins got nerfed so they now probably 3 killers who get an average of 1 kill per game!
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Is that based off these stats?:
Because even between 2019 and 2020 stats you had the hex ruin nerf which still didn't affect kill numbers. If anything numbers went higher with EGC and Hatch close. There's nothing to indicate a change to 2 kills unless the stats I just mentioned have been smoothed over, given that they're more diluted now and give us less information.
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I dont think Killers get major nerf. Its just the existence of Boon & the new Boil over make it worse to play fair.
Tunneler/camper merely affected.
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No survivor hasn't, not in an meaningful way, in some time. Unless you can point to something specific?
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So basically you are only looking at information that confirms the belief you already held.
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Based on the latest stats:
3 kills would be a 75% kill rate. Which considerably dropped since 2019.
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Well just in recent times, Boil Over and Boons just to name recent massive buffs that make the game even less fun for killers. Oh and hit validation favouring survivors over killers, along with massive buffs to maps like The Game that were once kind of killer sided or at least more balanced than others
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Well when more or less all killers but one are in dire need of buffs to be viable in high MMR then something is wrong. And when devs instead jokes about giving survivors BT as basekit of course people just get tired of things and leave or switch to playing only survivor.
It's been said many times but solo survivors needs information buffs and then maps needs to get more killers sided so things even out. Smaller maps would be good but will it happen? Probably not since just giving killers a basekit perk or something would be a lot more easy for them to do so I can see that happening when we get to a more critical point of even less killer players than it is now.
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I don't understand how anyone thinks counting raw killer buffs and nerfs says anything about the state of balance.
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Yes, what I posted and you haven't answered my questions. Those numbers alone give us nothing relative to say high ranks vs low ranks, that the old stats gave.
As I said, watered down. Did they actually give anything detailed. Like how did they balance out a survivor who raged quit at the end of the game after they were downed??
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Hit validation? That's gotta be a joke. Can you show an actual dev post stating as such because those long range killer hits through windows say otherwise.
Also I thought the new Boil Over was getting tested still.
Boons in general?
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That's why balancing around kills is a terrible idea. The game should be balanced around actual hooks, not even hook stages. Only hooks.
Someone who got 8 hooks but no kills is more skilled than someone who got 2 kills by only 2 hooks.
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Well I'm not disagreeing with how the game should be balanced.
The concern here is that you keep side stepping my questions. My concern is that your looking for a more 'got you' moment than a good discussion.
EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that the devs 'balancing around kills' was there doing at release. You used to get statements that highlighted if you got a 4k or not end game. With a 4K being a good old killer slap on the back and job well done to no kills would be met with a 'you weak' type statement.
Post edited by MikaKim on0 -
Do you actually have anything for me?
I'm going with 'No'.
On your way to 4k posts too, that's impressive....
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Then it means people stopped playing killers and switched to survivors for absolutely no reason, pretty weird I'd say.
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Unless you can point to something specific?
Which you haven't.
When was this supposed 'switch'? Because there wasn't.
Do you know what happened at release? Lobby Wars.
That's right, the devs had no idea that people would want to play with their friends in an online game (serious). You would be in a lobby for 15mins watching people enter and leave, enter and leave looking for their friends. What did that mockery bring about? SWF!
It's been a slow roll of nerfing survivors, buffing killers since. Because SWF unbalanced things so much.
Now I'm doing your job for you.
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que time, it's enough as a proof.
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In other words anecdotal subjective talking points <3
That's not what I see in the queues.
EDIT: Before when it was peer to peer you could actually see the numbers. Now usually what I see is low rank survivors being fed to high rank killers. So the killers don't have to wait longer to find games.
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Well, they did go from an overall kill rate of 68% to something more like 52%.
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Lol... if you dont know hits are validated favouring survivors now, well I cant be bothered searching through posts etc if you dont know this is the case. Boil Over went live, beyond all belief they actually thought this was fine to go to live servers. COH in particular is completely broken and while many maps did get less safe pallets, there are still too many of them that can easily join strong loops together if a survivor has half a brain.
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It's opposite though, since there is too many of survivors, SBMM going tantrum they starts throwing anything bottom of the que at any new killers, results in all those unbalanced matches with instant killer que.
If it was SBMM throwing random survivors at killers, survivor que will be instant as there would be a lot of killers waiting for the que.
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On the account that it was broken (and still is)
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