Boil over buff shows killers are hypocritical
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Please don't say that CoH is balanced, no one that actually played with it/against it would agree, unless they straight up ignore all of the upsides it has and make a fake argument like "It takes 1 second to snuff, git gud"
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Killers seriously cry over every little survivor buff nowadays. I remember when the Ruin and Legion nerf was unanimously praised. When lots of small survivor buffs got praised by the entire community. The new Boil Over is really not that good!
It's sad to see what's been going on. The new DMS is insane and people just don't realize it. What happened to wanting to make the game balanced and not killer sided?
You have to dedicate so much of your resources and play style just to make Boil Over give you the chance to wiggle off. DMS + Pain Resonance gives you 45 seconds of passive gen blocking just by hooking people. So dumb.
I honestly think it's just all of the new players that have joined since I started playing. The player base has more than doubled since 2019 and it's probably all mostly newer players now who don't know how bad killers really had it.
My least favorite thing to hear from this community is that somehow killers have gotten nothing but nerfs the past few years? Like #########? Every killer released in the past year has been insane, all of the perks that have come out have been crazy, the meta shifts like every update. What did survivors get? Slower gen speeds, and Boil Over... Wow, so fair.
I really agree with you on this and I'm glad there are people saying it because whenever I make a post about something like this I get 250 replies of disagreement.
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Tinkerer is broken too, and "overused" on Blight. So to say killer perks are nerfed when overused is the opposite of the truth. BBQ is overused and not nerfed. They may have changed Ruin because new players could not hit the skillchecks but it really wasn't that it was overused, but they either intentionally or inadvertently made the perk much stronger. Take a Blight that is all over the map, bouncing constantly and removing people from gens. It's common for Blight to constantly keep or two survivors on the hook - how can anyone find the totem?
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Fortunately i have proof to back up what I'm saying:
"The upcoming mid-chapter update will also include a major overhaul to Hex: Ruin, and an associated update to the Gatekeeper Emblem. Recent data show that Hex: Ruin is used in over 80% of all games in the red ranks, and across the entire userbase it appears in about 45% of all games. "
"We also looked carefully to see how it functions as part of a Killer's loadout. Beyond the obvious desire to slow down generator repair, Hex: Ruin functions as one of the very few perks effective as slowing generator repair in the first couple of minutes of the Trial. This is important to Killers' rankings because the Gatekeeper Emblem highly rewards keeping as many of the 7 generators incomplete as they can for as long as possible. "
Source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/117488/designer-notes-doctor-gatekeeper-hex-ruin
You're entitled to your opinion on Blight and his 4 horseman slowdown perks, I'm not the biggest fan of them myself but nowhere in this thread did I say a perk should be nerfed purely because it's being used too much. If a perk (such as boil over in this case) is promoting unhealthy gameplay then it should be looked at
This applies to killer perks too, insidious for example - it promotes unhealthy gameplay and should've been changed years ago.
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You can notice when killer mains never play survivor. The new Dead Man's Switch, and Scourage Hooks is so broken, way more than Boil Over. One player, only one player can equip these and have a massive unbeatable advantage over a team of four.
Yes, killers have had nothing buff buffs since 2019 and earlier while survivors have had nerfs in several ways.
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Whataboutism means that you do actually concede that Boil Over is broken and needs to go away.
But okay.
- BBQ...what? BBQ is used entirely for BP gains. How on earth is BBQ OP?
- Ruin isn't OP. Ruin is insanely fragile, requires a second perk to last more than a few seconds against a decent group.
- The issue with CoH isn't the numbers. Well, not just the numbers. It's that the intended counterplay doesn't actually work half the time.
- The issue with Boil Over isn't that it's strong. There are ways to rework this perk to make it viable. As it stands, it's the worst sort of perk - a weak perk only useful if you want to be a griefer.
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Keep or buff Boil Over with the addition that using it removes the killer's stun when said survivor jumps off their back. Problem solved.
I'll happily let you Boil Over bounce so I can pop your tea bagging carcass in the back of the head again.
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Yeah It's not like survivors have had an entirely new mechanic added to the game that completely favours them in basically every way. A mechanic killers just have to bite down and deal with.
I'm not even saying that to be snarky, Boons have virtually NO downsides in practice. Zero.
And they would've been even stronger than the current version if changes weren't made and isn't that a scary thought
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This has become Whataboutism: The Thread.
Tinkerer is strong, but has counterplay. Use your eyes and get ready to hoof it at 70%.
Boil Over isn't strong, but if it's being abused - it has no counterplay. I tested Iron Grasp+Agitation versus a mate of mine in the RPD library. You are still unhookable if you go to the right spot. A 'closer hook' offering might be the trick, but two crap perks and an ultra rare offering should not be required to prevent griefing with this perk.
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Oh no, the team of one person can equip perks that give them an advantage over the team of four if said team doesn't also bring good perks!
I... yes? That is what it being an asymmetrical game means? Are you trying to propose that because there are more Survivors, they should always be able to have an advantage once perks are considered?
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That is not fair counterplay though. What if a Leatherface politely walks up in a jungle gym where I have no LOS and instantly downs me with no warning? Not all gens are out in the open so you can see the killer everywhere.
Now I will agree about RDP, but that is really a map issue instead of perk. There shouldn't be a specific location that is always safe. All they need to do is make hooks randomized where it will sometimes spawn one in the library and sometimes not. To the contrary, how often do you wiggle free in other areas?
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It's Sluzzy, so probably yes.
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Wiggling free is supposed to be a rare thing that happens because a Killer got greedy. Not something that can be relied upon to add another chase to the 12+ we're already considering the aim for a fair game.
This is the problem with saying "but Boil Over is still bad": yes, it should be mediocre, because being able to reliably proc a condition-free unlimited escape, particularly if this doesn't also behoove the entire team to get off gens to do it, completely destroys the game logic and balance.
And the issue with when it isn't bad is that the game will alternate between hostage-taking "not going to let the game end" squads with exponential, no mither, etc. and a slugging spree because it's the only remaining option. Nobody except for trolls like either of those.
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You'll hear him coming, Leatherface has fat feet and the saw gives a distinctive noise too. If you suspect Tinkerer, the counterplay is using your other prompts (audio, visual) when the gen reaches 70%. Inside a jungle gym is absolutely ideal, as if you just vault you stop him completely.
A nice trick to counter Tink is to immediately leave any gen once you've taken it to 70%, wait a few seconds then get back on it. If the killer comes over, he'll waste a ton of time.
RPD, Eyrie and IWOM all have those spots, and other maps have spots that are pretty close.
It's easy to say 'oh, just fix the maps' - but this is something that is clearly very difficult for BHVR to do. It took them literally years to fix the spots where you couldn't pick survivors up.
It's easier just to remove that aspect of the perk and rework it in another way. Wriggling free should be a rare event caused by killer counterplay or a concerted team effort, because it's insanely punishing for the killer - and causes them to lose points. It's never nice to be punished for something out of your control.
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The problem is always the same.. SWF that try to exploit everything. Boil over is really "meh" as a soloQ but againts toxic SWF it can be annoying and a nightmare.
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I have to agree with sluzzy.
Remember the killer about ruin/undying/noed
"Oh, you have so many perks to counter them 4head, easy. Small game, counterforce, detectives hunch etc"
Now use IG, Agi to counter boil over.
But you won't, you can't get rid your 4 slowdown stacking gen regression perks and you want a boil over nerf.
Killer main hypocrisy.
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Lolwut.
Okay, this is wrong on...so many levels it's almost impressive.
- Ruin+Undying got nerfed. As it stands, they have counterplay absent perks (totem spots that have been known for years).
- Survivors have 16 perks to work with. Killers have 4. A single survivor giving up a spot for SG isn't a big deal. Killers losing half their perks is.
- Even with Agi+IG, certain spots are still completely unhookable.
- Whatever perks you are QQing about, at worst they just let the killer win. They don't let the killer basically take the game hostage because they want to grief/sulk.
This entire thread is just flamebaiting and whataboutism. The fact that you are trying to keep a perk alive that isn't useful aside from griefing makes me wonder...why?
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"Lolwut"
I don't even tested the perk. Im talking about the hypocrisy.
Hexes are hexes. Doesn't change anything because undying got nerf, wdym,"lolwut"
Use for once another perk instead of your usual 4 gen regression.
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I tried it a few times but it's situational, and for it to be more effective you need to allocate additional perks. Oftentimes there's a hook right around the corner. It's the slow down meta so what have I done? Certainly not complain on the forums about it. I now equip Rookie Spirit, Blast Mine and Repressed Alliance. I've been having so much fun with this build by protecting generators. Do I always escape? No, but it's been fun to counter all the slowdown and regression perks in play. This one particular killer got so afraid of blast mine that he stopped kicking lol As killer I've been having a blast with Mad Grit, Iron Grasp and Agitation.
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The same applies to hex perks, Ruin and especially Devour can devastate a trial and bring it to a swift conclusion. And then gg if they also have Undying. So survivors too can waste a lot of time looking for hex totems that provide tremendous value and fundamentally change mechanics. I've had it happen to me personally many times, no one can find the totems and the match comes to an end. However, no one wants to talk about those moments, it's always the moments where someone brings a boon totem that the killer can never find and that's supposed to be the end of the world.
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'Lolwut' because 'did you actually think about this before posting?'. Evidently you didn't, because you don't even know what the issue is.
It's not that it's wrong, it's that there is nothing even slightly correct about it.
But okay.
...Who uses 4 regression perks? That would be silly. Usually, regression these days is either the standard meta (Ruin Undying or Pop) or something a bit more exotic (PR+Agitiation, Deadlock, DMS). Then the killer will generally have BBQ (for BP) and either some sort of info perk (Tink, Discordance) or something aggressive (STBFL, Devour).
If you are facing killers with 4 regression perks, you are facing killers who don't understand the game or are running a meme build.
The reason regression is meta is because it's what is needed to counter what survivors do. That's...what meta is.
I run Agitation on a lot of killers. It doesn't stop Boil Over from being abused on these maps, at all.
Honestly, what are you even talking about?
No, not it doesn't. None of this applies to hex perks at all - this is, again, a textbook example of whataboutism.
Here's the difference.
- These are perks that have counterplay. The only counterplay to Boil Over on some maps is literally slugging and then camping the slugs to bleed them out. Do you want to encourage this sort of gameplay? Do you think it's engaging or fun for either side?
- Hexes are easily dealt with on most maps without any perks. They have specific spots where they can spawn, and if you've been playing this game for any length of time, you should know roughly where to look.
- At best, hexes allow you to win. They don't allow you to stall a match out for 30 minutes because you thought it would be funny to.
- Devour is so incredibly telegraphed that it's barely used anymore.
- Ruin Undying has been meta for years now. There are at least 5 different ways to counter it, off the top of my head. What is the counter to Boil Over+RPD offering that doesn't involve spending 10 minutes camping slugs?
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I swear the only thing I ever agreed with you on is Blight being OP. :/
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That's not what whataboutery is. I illustrated that the Survivor also experiences those pain points with an example. I never called you a hypocrite or said you were wrong. You missed that important distinction in your zeal to use the go-to term on these forums.
I also never said anything about Boil Over in the post you quote, so I am confused.
Slugging isn't fun, but it is rampant even before Boil Over, so I see little difference there. Your other points are subjective, yet you present your opinion as to if it were authoritative. The counter to a map offering is to use the Sacrificial Ward or cancel the match. You have to decide what to do.
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agree tbh
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Yes, it is. It's a perfect example of whataboutism.
You are using an irrelevant point as a red herring, to sidetrack the conversation into another concern. This is not a thread about hexes. This is a thread about Boil Over.
We aren't talking about hexes here. Hexes aren't even remotely analogous. I explained why. We are talking about Boil Over being the keys to the Trollmobile.
Slugging was rampant - and people hated it. I personally hate slugging as a killer, unless I'm trying to avoid killing someone.
Why do you want more slugging?
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Ignoring all the other stuff because I'd just be repeating what everyone else is saying, Sluzzy not abusing Boil Over is the hero we need
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No, it isn't; you're still missing the point. YOU mentioned Boons, so I replied to your post about Boons and how that same complaint applies to Survivors. You're going off-topic and trying to sidetrack the thread. This topic isn't about Boons or Hexes, so focus on Boil Over.
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You're right, I should just dumb down things in order to make it look good for my narrative. Good idea!
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I was responding to someone else who brought up hexes, and someone else who brought up boons - in literally the same way I'm responding to you.
Sigh.
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Yes, they are hypocritical, but not for the reason you believe. I am glad that I didn't accidentally agree with Sluzzy. I told myself if the day game when I genuinely agreed with him, I would quit DBD. And that day is not today, dodged a bullet.
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I realize that, but that doesn't insulate your post from replies. Going back to BO to avoid a hijack.
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It's always nice when the hijacker returns the car, but good. Let's talk about BO.
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I tot we didn’t like slugging?
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Deflect, but that's classic coming from the person with the most OT and lengthy replies in this thread.
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I like slugging as much as I love your username.
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Eh... you don't like Boil Over - then start running Iron Grip and quit complaining.
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I tried this with a mate yesterday.
Running Agitation+Iron Will.
RPD library = still completely unhookable.
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Responding to other people going OT is not going OT. But again - shoot.
Tell me why Boil Over is fine.
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It's not hard to see Blight is OP, in a broken kind of way. He gets hits all the time that shouldn't be possible.
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It’s not fun for survivors, but it is a valid strategy. Just need to make an option to accelerate the timer if all survivors are already hooked, dead, or in the dying state. So they aren’t just left to bleed out as a BM.
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boil over is very specific SWF build I think. so basically strategy is to run dead hard+boil over+break out+coh. killer if he hits anyone, the killer will physically be unable to hook survivor from boil over+break out. if you bring toolbox with any type of speed to sabotage, you can literally stand on a hook, force killer to hit you and than sabotage in their face and dead hard right after. All hits that you take from bodyblock can now be healed through circle of healing.
hypothetically a killer can get zero hooks because he physically cannot do objective unlike blight that merely slows objective down.
If wiggling off is rare event, than why would anyone use boil over? entire point of the perk is to wiggle off which also applies to sabotage. The exact reason why nobody uses boil over in past is because boil over did nothing and was realistically worthless.
bare in mind, I am not saying that having infinity decisive strikes from wiggling off is exactly fair game. Just my guess to why sluzzy might be defending it.
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This is actully the most I insightful post I've seen. I completely agree
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Explain to me then - why should survivors be able to take the game hostage unless (and sometimes even when) they bring two specific, mostly useless perks?
Why do you think this is good game design?
I'll wait.
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There's the problem: wiggling is (or should be) a rare event, so why use a perk that makes it easier?
If it makes it reliable, then there's a problem because unavoidable chase resets with no counterplay except maybe to have already given up half your perk slots and be playing at a big disadvantage. If it doesn't make it reliable, then nobody is going to use it.
What Boil Over does is something that can't really be buffed much unless it's made obligatory and the number of hooks needed is kneecapped. Its just not doing something good.
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The killer being unable to hook a survivor due to survivor efforts is not holding the game hostage. The game can still progress.
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/facepalm.
A survivor with No Mither on RPD can be literally unhookable. If they run NM, you also can't just leave them slugged. This means they are literally holding the game hostage - you can't end the game until they want you to, or you simply do not play the game and instead stand over them watching them.
That's like saying 'walling survivors in on The Game should be allowed because they can just wait until the killer gets bored'.
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“Nerf it to the ground?” 25% was gutting it? That’s cute :’)
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That’s the thing though - it says high place, but you can drop an inch off the ground and it grants 25% progress. You have to be SO careful on your mapping to a hook and you’re bashed about so much chances are you’ll hit that little tiny ledge when you’re at top of basement or wherever.
I’m guessing you don’t play much killer to know how little a distance boil over needs to count as a “drop”.
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Their bleed out timer is still going while slugged, whether they are recovering or not. As long as you’re not letting them be healed by someone else and they’re not cheating, they will die on the ground. You’re also able to switch targets, weird concept I know.
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"Eventually" dying on the ground half an hour or more later and then leaving like they always could once the timers get too low due to multiple people doing this and getting up again is the exact scenario that's being criticised, yeah. It's the troll squads again.
And taking the game hostage by not doing gens and forcing a frustrating time waste where all your downs and hook attempts mean nothing.
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