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Boil over buff shows killers are hypocritical
If anything the perk is too situational and not really helpful in most situations. It went from being completely useless to maybe helping in rare situations. I QUIT using it! I used it for 3 days and only got off a shoulder one time. These kind of perks are HORRIBLE when it comes to sheer luck.
Killer complaints about Boil Over are not justified when they say they can’t rarely do their objective in rare situations. It is hypocritical for killers to complain about Boil Over when they bring in the most OP things in the game. Multiple slowdown perks that “prevents” the survivor from doing the objective. You know what killers tell me when I complain about Ruin? You have perks for that. Well, I have news for killers: You have perks to deal with Boil Over. Use them. Oh, or is that only for survivors?
Take off your sweaty builds and use Iron Grasp. You do not have to use the same perks every game. 3 and 4 slowdown perks are completely unnecessary. If you do not like Boil Over, bring a perk to counter it. This is what is told to survivors when they don’t like certain things. “Bring a map, bring Counter Force, ….”
And lastly, Boil Over is no stronger on a SWF than Ruin is on an OP killer like Blight. I would say Boil Over is still weak and too situational.
I played against a Blight that used the new overbuffed Dead Man’s Switch and Scourage Hook: Pain. Nobody could do the objective. He easily won with several gens remaining because the survivors COULD NOT do the objective. This is beyond broken but lets sweep this under the rug and talk about Boil Over?
We need to stop balancing around high profile survivors in edge cases and leaving broken killers and perks unchecked. Killers win way too much and it is unhealthy for the game.
Comments
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Indeed it does. Can’t help but chuckle reading the comments on the forums saying they don’t want to change their perks to counter Boil Over, when you don’t even need perks to counter it at all in the first place. Slugging is free!
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I tried the Boil Over perk and eventually unequipped it. I agree it's very situational. I think it helped me once on Badham and overall wasn't worth it.
For Killers worried about people using it to be annoying, I think we'll see a surge of that and then it will die off as soon as the kiddies get bored.
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No it doesn't
If anything it proves that if something can be abused, it will be abused
It's not really too much of a problem on its own but it can be made into a problem with SWFs & map offerings. Say what you want about your favourite killer blight and his four horseman of slowdowns at least he isn't holding the game hostage and has to actually play the game. Sure it might not be very fun for you but it's not like it's impossible.
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By all means, insist that some maps having areas where hooking is literally impossible even if you have the magical foresight to bring two otherwise useless perks to maybe counter one Survivor having one perk is the same as... gen regression. Yup, investing 50% of Killer perks are a reasonable preparation to maybe 6.25% of Survivors perks.
Sluzzy, you ever thought that you might be obsessed with Ruin?
Boil Over was buffed into being mediocre in general but super annoying if someone is utterly determined to use it and ridiculous if SWFs do. Therefore, complaints. Not because "generically OP", but because every map with two floors can become a slugging/hostage situation.
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C'mon Sluzzy, really? another " but what about x?" post?
We know you can do better than that!
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Unfortunately for you, killer don't complain about Boil Over that is op, but that it can be abused in different maps.
Now, if the devs acknowledge this abuse, they can "fix it" without touching the perk (adding hook on those area, like they did on top of Thompson House), otherwise, it will remain a situational perk (normally) that can be abused.
Post edited by Rizzo on5 -
Not bad, not great post.
6/10
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I've honestly been laughing at the outrage of Boil Over which has been a meme since it was added to the game. Like really, there are so few situations where you'll have to drop off a high place to hook someone. But you'd think this is the most toxic and OP perk in the game if you read the forums (when people aren't complaining about Dead Hard which also is just strong but not OP)
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Right people are using it to be frivolous. It's all a gimmick that 95% of survivors won't even use next week. It's not worthy of making the perk useless again. Plus it can be countered by slugging.
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Thanks Sluzzy
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I find that killers drop off of 'heights' quite a lot because they need to cut corners to make hooks due to many of the maps layouts
Boil over wouldn't bother people as much if "great height" wasn't such an overstatement. The truth is the height is nowhere near great
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Sluzzy...
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Ruin prevents survivors from doing their objective?
Please, tell me more.
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I don't know that anyone is calling it OP (if they are they're wrong) it's very beatable it's just the way you beat it is incredibly boring.
People hate twins because they encourage slugging and that isn't fun but then survivors put on boil over and go "it's not OP just slug" like we don't know that. We do we just prefer not to and thought you did too considering all the Twins bitching but okay I guess that was wrong.
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I'll tell you what really hypocritical.
Them reworking balanced landing because of some problematic drops but releasing boil over as it is now.
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I don't play these so-called "sweaty" builds so I'm still allowed to complain that Boiled Over is OP and that the devs are insane for thinking that this was an OK thing to release, right?
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I want to pet. Let me pet plz. I beg u.
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The perk may still be weak and situational when playing normally, but the problem is that it's so easily abused. Tell me it doesn't drag out a game for generations when there's a 4-man with an RPD badge and 3 petrified oaks running Boil Over and Exponential.
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Why do people act like slugging fixes Boil Over when the teams that use it will pick up the player as soon as you leave and they'll return to contributing (and running straight back towards the trouble area when you arrive on the scene), if they didn't just bring Exponential anyway?
When dealing with a player abusing Boil Over, and the team isn't crowding around like a bunch of hungry spectators, you have to throw the whole game to be able to kill them. Otherwise you can't do anything about them unless they screw up or you're Pyramid Head - perhaps Trapper as well, if they're not careful or their team doesn't help them disarm the traps. It's either a losing situation or a "I can bleed them all out, but it'll take the better part of an hour to do it." To that end, I don't see how "you won't encounter it much once the shiny new gloss wears off" is a good argument to keep things the way they are. They fixed Soul Guard/WGLF abuse and Breakdown abuse despite those being a rarity to encounter, because it turns out having that kind of broken interaction in the game isn't healthy even if it's just a few people running it for the purpose of being annoying. There's no reason for Boil Over to exist in its current state except to fuel trolls. Because when you're not using it to abuse map design, it's still a really bad perk that nobody is going to want to run over actual consistent and helpful effects. It's unfeasible for it to trigger on most maps, it tells the killer that you have it, and the drop still won't get you free if you don't orchestrate the situation or your teammates aren't there to block the killer. It's arguably the worst kind of perk - virtually no honest uses and plenty of scummy ones. I'm a little reminded of Insidious, but Insidious is easier to deal with once you know it's there.
I could perhaps live with current Boil Over being a permanent addition to the game if they fix it so that every single trouble spot is now guaranteed to have a hook - second floor Asylum, RPD library balconies, second floor Eyrie, Thompson House gen, Badham two story house, Dead Dawg saloon, Grim Pantry main building. And those present their own issues, because several of those hooks could be bodyblocked by the killer (which is currently an issue with one of the possible Eyrie hooks, iirc) and there's still the problem with that hook being consumed if several people are abusing the area.
To the argument that Sluzzy brought up, since I've seen a few other people who aren't just baiting echoing it: Stuff like maps or Small Game are training wheels for learning how to deal with Ruin. Those things make it easier, but the main point is that they'll help you learn the map spawns so that you can deal with hexes on your own. Same if you're dealing with a Blight with Tinkerer - Prove Thyself or BNP will help you, but teamwork fills in the gaps just fine; have one guy distract the Blight with a promising chase and have everyone else pile on the gen, and commit if the Blight comes back. Perks make it easier, but game knowledge fills in the gaps. Meanwhile, those perks and items are good enough (or the things they counter are common enough) that they're often worth bringing anyway. For instance, Small Game will help you place boons without wasting time and will work to counter any hexes the killer might bring, especially NOED.
You can't do anything about Boil Over abuse without the right perks. It doesn't matter how well you understand the situation. Either the whole team crowds around for saves and you can kill them if there's no No Mither/Exponential shenanigans, or you're helpless. Needing a perk to deal with another perk is terrible design, especially when the counter-perk is nearly useless on its own. Do you bring Calm Spirit every game on the possibility you might be facing a god-tier Infectious Fright Nurse? Why not? Perhaps because Calm Spirit is close to worthless otherwise and the odds of you facing that particular scenario is quite low, so it's better to bring perks that will always help you?
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People are complaining about Boil Over being buffed?
lmao, it's one out of the large group of perks that need a good change to either shake up the meta and/or have some fun builds with
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Sluzzy or the cat?
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I only like kitties with paws and toe beans.
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Survivors: Hey, killers, your hex perk is too strong!
Killers: Just do bones!
Survivors: Okay...
Killers: Hey, survivors, your boon perk is too strong!
Survivors: Just do bon-
Devs: Nerf it to the ground!
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Basing your entire argument on "whatabouts" rather than presenting an argument based on the perk that is the problem, Boil Over, makes your arguments pretty irrelevant. Any time you argue against one thing, like Boil Over, then randomly try to justify arguments made against it by bringing up four other perks, again, makes your argument irrelevant.
And for the record just because something does exist to counter something else does not mean that the perk is balanced due to it having a counter. There were plenty of perks that existed to detect totems yet people constantly complained about Ruin. Old Enduring countered old DS, but then they nerfed Enduring not to. You could list lots of more examples.
It's a perk that is terrible in general but is just annoying and frustrating when 4 people use it to abuse it, then alter their build to deal with the counter itself, which would be slugging and bringing Soul Guard/Unbreakable. That's rare so it's whatever. And lastly.. when you see nothing but every killer streamer using multiple slowdowns and everyone playing the game as a killer in general using at least one or two, as you can probably tell us when every game you play has a killer with slowdowns, your argument for not needing gen defense, based on statistics, looks pretty wrong. Or maybe you just know something every killer player doesn't.
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This has somehow gone beyond strawman into the realms of the Strawzilla.
- This isn't a thread about CoH. This is a thread about survivors abusing Boil Over to be literally unhookable.
- Iron Grasp and Agitation don't actually fully fix the issue. Some areas are still unhookable.
- Which hex perk are you referring to? NOED has counterplay, Ruin is fragile, the rest of the hexes are barely seen.
- Boons, on the other hand, have zero counterplay. Snuffing them, if you site them right, actually puts you behind. A boon in the RPD library or the second floor of Eyrie takes so long to snuff that even if you know roughly where they are, it takes less time to relight it.
Uh...what? Oh, hi Sluzzy.
- Where is the hypocrisy? I'm...not sure if you know what that word means.
- If there was a perk that allowed killers to prevent survivors from leaving the exit gates unless they had Red Herring and Empathy equipped, survivors would be rioting.
- If survivors want to abuse BO, Iron Grasp and Agitation still don't help all that much. The issue is that you'll need to drop down from a high place to hook them, plus there are no hooks near enough to that position.
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Snuffing Totems to counter Boons is impossible as they can be infinitely reblessed. The only definitive counter that is on the same level as cleaning Hex Totems is killing the Survivor that is using the Perk.
Using Perks to counter other Perks and using game mechanics to counter Perks are different, and no one is complaining that Boil Over is op, people are complaining that it's abuseable and can guarantee that the Killer can't hook you anymore
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Funny enough I said to wait a week for Boil Over to be what it is
And yes Boil Over does need a build around it to work out... Just saying
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You start to get really boring, Sluzzy. Next time, be more creative if you're able to do so.
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Yeah, because 14 seconds of cleansing is the same as 1 second of snuffing, because 0.5 meter sound radius of hex is the same as 16m radius of boon's sound. We've heard all this before, these gymnastics never change.
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Yes, we get it. You don't play killer, so you don't actually know how this works from the killers' perspective.
Think of it this way.
- You are on RPD.
- You hear a boon and see people healing and being cloaked. You know it's a Shadowstep and CoH stack.
- Where is the boon? It could be in the office, it could be in fifteen different places where it'll still cover half the map.
- You guess that it's in the library, because survivors always put it there.
- You go to the library, which is a long route totally out of the way.
- Is it on top, or in one of the shelf locations, or in a corner?
Tell me, how much time have you just wasted?
Multiply it by 4.
If the number isn't below 15, you've just lost the game.
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I've had a survivor wiggle off due to Boil Over exactly one time since the buff dropped. Running it myself, I have noticed a very, very clear distinction between PC and console killers in terms of how much Boil Over affects them. Console killers can't make it through doorways in many instances, and PC killers including myself are barely affected by the increased wiggle. So I think that's where a lot of the disconnect is stemming from. Depending on the platform, it barely affects the game.
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Is it really 1 second tho? If Survivors are using CoH, the only unbalanced Boon, it's never a 1 second snuff. It'll most likely be on the opposite side of the map, costing the Killer about 30 seconds to go snuff, which would be 30 seconds on 2 different gens minimum. Boons are never worth snuffing as they can be indefinitely reblessed
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I play killer more often than survivor since MMR came out, so your ad hominem misses completely. Try playing soloQ survivor yourself once in a while to see the whole perspective instead of being a "main" who only sees everything from one side.
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Not exactly a 1 to 1 cpmparasin. To deal with totems your side only needs to designate 1 or 2 of your combined 16 perk slots. We would have to set aside 1 of our total 4 slots.
That said boil over is really only effective on maps with a strong central structure that has verticality and the map is small enough that you can resonably get to it every time. Its one of thoes 'use with a map offering' perks imo on the same level as head on... super annoying when it does cost you a play, but the coordination and planning required means it will rarely happen.
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Honestly this reminds me way too much of Trickster when he came out
If you were playing him on the PC, he was a God that no one could do anything about because PC has the fine control needed to deal with his recoil. It was basically nothing on the PC. However if you were on console, Trickster might as well not be an option for you because you can't control his stupid knives as they spray all over the damn place and the controller doesn't have the fine tune needed to make those tiny baby adjustments.
Because I've found on console that Boil Over is a HUGE pain in the ass to deal with as if it's not a completely clean shot to the hook, I might as well just drop them there because I'm going to get stuck on every GD thing on my way to the hook. Where my PC buddy doesn't see what the big deal is about Boil Over (except when survivors are clearly and maliciously abusing it like RPD Library or whatnot).
BHVR just never seems to remember that console players don't get to use a mouse and keyboard...
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The issue isn't the perk itself, but because Boil Over can be abused on most maps and be used to hold the game hostage. In some areas of certain maps you can't even hook a survivor because there's no hooks around the area. And survivors are purposely abusing it, pairing Boil Over with perks like No Mither/Flip Flop/Exponential/Etc., And bringing map offerings to RPD, Eyrie Of Crows, The Game, and other maps where it can be outright abused.
So yes, killers have every right to complain about it.
On top of all of that, the 25% bonus wiggle progression is too much, especially paired with the bonus wiggle speed from hitting great wiggle skill checks. If it was at 15% or something lower than what it is now, it would be more balanced.
One solution to this would be guaranteeing a hook spawn in the areas where Boil Over can be abused. Another would be to nerf the 25% bonus wiggle progression, because that's the main issue.
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Yes, and I drive a Maserati made entirely of chocolate.
There's no ad-hom there. From what you are saying, it's reasonable to assume you don't play killer. It's like someone talking about the lack of traffic in New York.
I play both sides, killer a lot more.
But don't take my opinion as gospel. Instead, look at Otz, Tofu and the other 8000+ hour Fog Whisperers and their opinions on Boons.
IWOM, Eyrie, RPD. Potentially some farm maps. That's at least 4 maps. You can also use it to a lesser extent on Asylum.
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Exactly. The only time Boil Over has been an issue is when I have to take a drop down. I run Agitation on pretty much every killer for efficiency reasons, so I barely notice when I survivor has Boil Over. Just minor corrections by tapping A and D on the keyboard while I move the mouse. It's always going to be a challenge for the devs. Analog sticks aren't great for precision, unfortunately. The best way to bridge the gap between platforms would be to enable M+K for console, which they haven't shown any desire to do.
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Survivors want Survivor meta to change: Dev gives Survivors yet more OP perks to pick from.
Survivors want Killer meta to change: Survivors are given yet more OP perks Killers have to change their meta to counter.
Killers want Killer meta to change: Devs nerf Killer perks that are overused.
Nope! No bias here!
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If "you never play killer" is your only argument, then you have no arguments at all, because your ad hominem "assumption" about me is completely wrong. As I said, I mostly play killer now, because soloQ survivor after MMR is pure hell. At this moment I'm in a lobby as Bubba. But I see you are not up to a constructive discussion, so I don't feel like explaining and proving anything to a wall.
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The game counts a 2 inch fall as a high spot
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You could just let them play their slugging simulator? I played vs. a bill and dwight that ran the full boil over, and tenacity with no mither, spine chill build. And they sent me to the raccoon police department, and they keep running up to the library when I keep getting close to the middle. So you know what I did? I downed them and they keep getting up. So I just went after the other two teammates. And then I slugged them properly since they where just up there being frivolous goofballs. And I don't blame people for slugging in this case, since the survivors are clearly trolling. But even with that I rather the perk stay strong to give us who are playing normally a chance to escape the killers grasp. But if you guys believe the perk needs to get nerfed. Then why don't you guys tell me how to nerf it in a way for the perk to remain useful. But I think the solution is to add hooks on maps, such as what you suggested. Either way I play killer and this is not happening in most of my games. I seen some people use it, but they rarely escape. So I think people are exaggerating the power of boil over.
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Its really not abuse to use perks. It's not hostage when you can slug or use perks to counter it.
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That's like saying 'it's not hostage when you can just DC to avoid it'.
On the off chance you are being serious here, don't be obtuse.
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This post really highlights a very big flaw of the community
In that when people complain about a perk that others look at it in a vacuum instead of looking at the specific scenario it was complained about.
Boil Over in a vaccuum still isn't good. But with the right build and map offering it becomes problematic.
Not boil over on it's own. But Boil Over in that specific scenario
The same happens with dead hard and noed
When someone complains about dead hard you'll always have the wise guy say "just bait it out" not realising the complaint is about being able to make all the risky plays in the world while always having a safety net of distance available.
That's when dead hard becomes problematic. Not when >20 hour people faceplant into a wall
When someone complains about noed you'll hear a 100th times "just do bones" when those people don't realise doing bones is not an option vs a camping killer with a passive gen stal build.
That's when noed becomes problematic. Not in a normal 10-15 minute games
People need to stop looking at things in a vaccuum and start looking at the specific scenarios they are complained about
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When did devs nerf overused killer perks? Ruin, BBQ still not nerfed. Killers get new strong massive slowdown perks with no nerfs.
Survivor perks like CoH already nerfed twice. Survivor perks are always nerfed, while killer perks are not touched.
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But it is abuse to be put in a situation where you either can't hook a survivor or have to waste time bleeding them out.
If it's one person doing it sure you can just ignore them and chase somebody else but if multiple people are doing it, what are you supposed to do
It doesn't promote healthy gameplay, not because it's a strong perk but because it forces killers to have to bleed people out to get kills - which is not the way the game is meant to be played.
Also Boil Over can be used to take the game hostage because No Mither and Exponential exist - perks that allow survivors to stand up an infinite amount of times.
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You do also get the complaints that noed is blanket OP because it can get "unearned" kills in otherwise 4E situations, though, so not just the camping/slowdown scenario. Same way half the DH complaints are still about validation one way or another.
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And now you've strawmanned me in a thread where I'm responding to your original strawman, making this a...strawducken?
My points were:
- Why are you bringing up boons out of the blue? This is a (bait) thread about Boil Over. Not boons.
- You clearly do not understand the core issue of boons, which is that the intended counterplay to boons is often actually a trap.
- From this, you either do not play killer, or have not played killer at that much.
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Actually Sluzzy if you remember - original ruin was nerfed because it was being used too much and made newer players miserable.
And to be blunt for a second - BBQ is never going to be nerfed, deal with it - it's perk people use for BP, the info is just a bonus. Most people prefer Tinkerer these days anyway
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