The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer.

bubba is weird. bubba does not win loops, but he shred pallets. he can win loops if survivor greed pallets and he has specific add-ons do this. I'd say he is anti-loop with instant down but you need to know how to pallet break zone and know how to time your charges to make him anti-loop. In that sense, he is miles beyond him. Using his chainsaw around windows is all big skill towards playing him well. I'd say he is underrated as most people say he is average/below average, though in my opinion, he is probably up there with strongest killers in the game if the killer player is competent at playing him.

(Spoiler, a lot of bubba are pretty bad and just camp a lot).

Tier 2 is not 0 terror radius even with m&a and dr.

-Myer's stealth in Tier 1 is literally a detriment because he barely moves faster than the survivors

-In tier 2, he has "stealth" in the form of a smaller terror radius but literally no power in chase. He can definitely get free hits, but so can Ghostface who can also expose people.

-In tier 3 Myers is indeed very strong but survivors that are spread out aren't going to give you the win when you have it

-Ghostface can 99 stalk people to get free downs on command. Myers can also do this, but the difference is with Ghostface you can down someone, hook them, wait for your ability to recharge, rinse, repeat, so survivors spreading out won't matter all that much with the right info perks. But with Myers you need to wait to have to stalk people. In some cases, that can take a while. I'd prefer a guarantee that I'll actually be able to use the strong part of my killer.

-Spine chill also counters Myers

-Yes, Ghostface has no chase power. But you have the ability to play around that by using stealth and downing 99'd people before they can react. Doing so can give you immense pressure.

-There are ways to counteract being revealed easily by cheesing the reveal mechanic (which I do not condone) or by finding hidden spots to stalk from. There are many of these on every map.

Overall, I do think what I originally said was wrong. Ghostface does have a variety of weaknesses, but I still think that his cooldown is the only one that you can't play around. Also, I'm not saying he's S tier or anything. He's mid C-tier at best imo, and Myers to me is low C tier, so I don't even consider him much weaker.

"Just because its not literally 0 doesn't mean its not stealth and in practice they both get you free hits/one shots so there's no real difference."

First paragraph.

It is not stealth if survs are alerted to your presence more easily. You can't compare it to 0 tr. It doesn't make any sense.

And without m&a and dr it is basically the same as any m1 killer with normal tr.

You don't need add ons/perks for pig, wraith and gf to have 0 tr on demand. Myers is only a stealth killer at tier 1. Tier 2 is pseudo stealth and only with m&a and dr like I said.

if you're getting trapped in tier 1 the survivors aren't good you're just bad, or the map screwed you over real hard. It should only take ~10 seconds of stalking to tier up.

You cant tell me you cant even look at a survivor for 10 seconds.

" 30+ seconds stalking first to do anything."

30 seconds? You can walk pretty close to them and stalk them since you know, no TR or warning. How are you stuck in T1 for 30 seconds of just stalking? Are you stalking them from across the map?

You can spawn in, hit tier 2 before anyone knows its Myers as well. But somehow we're stuck in tier 1??? Meanwhile if survivors just pan their camera around they get an audio warning that GF is within 32 meters, and which direction, even if they don't directly notice him.

I didn't said hes the worst, I just responded to your tier 2 claim (hard disagree). I won't watch a video from random streamer when I am talking to you btw. You can speak for yourself just fine.

As someone who used to play legion whenever they get the chance I feel this especially after the introduction of boons

In tier 2 he has a 16 meter TR and moves at 4.6, that means you have 3.5 seconds before he's literally inside you, taking out 1 second since he can lunge at you, you don't need to be right on top of him. So that's 2.5 assuming you can hear and react to the TR the exact moment you're in it. Obviously that unreasonable, especially because he has a non-standard TR that's quieter than most and human reaction time is not instant.

So realistically we're looking at ~ 2 seconds to react or less at basekit. Unless you're already on a pallet and drop it on him, assuming you guess which direction he's coming from, you're getting hit. That's nowhere near the same as other M1 killers.

Every M1 and stealth killer can be seen except Wraith past a certain distance, so there's nothing special about Myers on that front.

"I played him since 2018 and he is my most played killer." that sounds like you're set up for bias. Not saying its what's happening but something to consider.

Your experience doesn't change how the killer works. Tier 2 is stealth, 2 seconds or less is not enough time to consider it not stealth nor not get hit. Not including perks like M&A. If you're going to take the attitude of feelings over facts then yeah we'll never agree since you're feelings will always be right on your end regardless.

So yes it'd be best to cut our losses here.

Aside form stating his TR isn't literally 0, which I already said by that point, You weren't putting and still aren't putting anything factual into the discussion, everything is "I feel" and "I don't consider" and "in my experience", there's nothing else to call your arguments but anecdotal or emotionally based. As I said before, stealth is not defined by being literally 0. "psuedo stealth" implies its not actually stealth and is missing a lot of components to make it stealthy, but if it acts like stealth, gets results like stealth, gets hits like stealth, its stealth. Again, what is the tangible difference between to the 0 and 16 when they both accomplish the same exact thing?

Demo coming out his portals is psuedostealth because even though his TR is actually 0, he's loud af moving around and announces to everyone "hey I'm coming to a portal near you", the portal is loud, and it only last 3 seconds.

"At least I have my own and not basing mine on someone elses while calling everyone who disagrees non factual.

Your opinion =/= fact just because a streamer said so. If I can even be sure you have your own opinions."

These were my opinions even before that video was ever made. I like how now you're pretending I based my entire argument around a streamer when I literally mentioned them once as a supplementary point aside from my main one and have been makin these arguments on my own using the numbers from Myers kit and the game.

I don't have this opinion because of some streamer, he just happened to agree with me on Myers not being the worst killer. Which is again, not even the main point.

In your own words "You can speak for yourself just fine." Which I have been doing.

"calling everyone who disagrees non factual."

Whose everyone? I only said you were basing your entire endpoint with solely your experience, which is potentially biased since that's your main killer, while not putting any actual ways the killer works in contention nor countering any of my points.

In other words you went "this is my experience and how I feel so I don't care about the facts you brought up not will I counter any of them in turn with any actual numbers or facts, so bye."

Then you're getting upset that I said you're only talking with your feelings thus far, which is what you've been doing.

I literally showed with numbers how his stealth is fine.

TR has nothing to do with being seen, no TR doesn't make you invisible. As I've shown with numbers from the game its only 2 seconds of hearing him before you're hit. Since that's not enough time to do anything and you're going to get hit, its stealth since you're surprising your opponent to the point they cant do anything about getting hit in any realistic setting.

"And yes I am always adding "from my own experience" because I'm not a narcissist who thinks he is always right.:" It has nothing to do with being a narcists, you experience just doesn't change how the killer works and neither does mine.

"You are just a person who wants to "win" everything and thinks they are always right and others are wrong."

No, I'm a person who uses the data available and doesn't argue with "in my experience" to act like that makes me right when that's inherently biased. Not once have I said "in my experience" because that's not going to change anything about the point at hand. You're not going to prove anyone wrong with "in my experience". I could easily say "in my experience Myers has the best stealth in the game", that doesn't make it right and now we're just cancelling each other out. That's why you need to use actual facts in your arguments and logic things out and not just yell "I disagree because feelings".

You're just someone who argues with feelings and plays the victim card and resorts to personal attacks once you can't support your argument anymore and get called out for arguing with your feelings and experience solely with no supporting facts. Have a nice day.

2 seconds is more then enough time most of the time.

Sure not to hold w to a loop half a map away but most gens are in tiles. And it does not take 2 seconds to reach the pallet or window.

Not to mention that in a lot of maps the low terror radius is completly irrelevent as you can see him coming.

Tier 1 can also be incredibly detrimental. Once you start facing survivors who know how to deny stalk you are looking at 30 seconds to a minute to become a normal killer

Approach the gen backwards? Then you turn around to stalk them. This is a commonly known way to play around the perk and not hard to do.

That's how I play the 2 stalky bois, survivors still get caught on gens by surprise. Also GF has the same problem, but somehow this only prevents Myers because reasons?

Spine chill is not base kit and its easy enough to play around if your conscious of it.

Not taking precautions against the perk when it has an easy counter is on the killer player, so like I said "the survivors aren't good you're just bad".

SC changes little if you keep it in mind, you're still going to get your 10 seconds. Everything I said holds up even with SC in play if the killer plays correctly around it, which isn't asking a lot.

The most that'll happen is bad survivors, which don't look around, might run a little earlier. But if they're bad you're going to win anyways. If they're good they'll notice you anyway. To be a little lenient lets say we're maybe going from 10 seconds to 12, as you just maybe save them some time of spinning their camera and people don't leave the moment SC lights up, they wait a bit. Not character breaking and in no way getting you "trapped in tier 1".

Meanwhile GF gives everyone basekit Premonition with no CD which doesn't care which direction GF is facing.

Moonwalking doesn't slow you down, you have the same amount of time you would not moonwalking.

They can only interpret the information if you give it to them, so don't by looking away.

If they're inside a structure you can literally turn the corner and stalk them since they cant see you coming, at that range we're looking at ~6-7 seconds of stalking. Indoor maps are great for Myers for a reason.

You wouldn't need to swap targets if you did it right the first time. Yes its frustrating to lose for 1 mistake early, but thats 90% of the killers in the game, not Myers exclusive. Same happens with GF except now he's on CD and has normal TR.

He's better 10 seconds after finding someone, I don't think that's "late game".

"There is no reason to be moonwalking around there."

Spine Chill? So now you're refusing to counter the perk but then complaining about the perk working.

"Sitting at the unblocked gens waiting for a chase"

Yeah that sounds like a bad idea, why are you doing that? Who said you should be doing that?

" I literally never M1 on him without tier 3 up. That's relegating yourself to an M1 killer"

Well thats a bad idea, you're playing Myers wrong. You're playing a game of extremes where you never M1, which is giving the survivors unnecessary free time and building no pressure, or you "relegating yourself to an M1 killer" by not using you power at all, which is obviously bad. You should be somewhere in the middle and using your stealth to get free hits where appropriate. Survivors will typically heal against stealth killers because if they don't they just get 1 hit the next time they get snuck up on. Yeah when you're ignoring half the killers power you're going to have a bad time.

"especially if you know how to cheese the stalking."

and Myers can't cheese stalking because?

Myers doesn't go on a rampage, neither does GF, whose saying they're going on a rampage? Is he weak? Yes. Is he the weakest? No. Is he weaker than GF? Also no.

On a side note, high MMR survivors typically have little trouble with Oni since he's an M1 killer that needs 2-3 separate chases with different survivors to even get his power going, but he's not the point of this discussion.

So Oni waste a bunch of time gathering orbs, that's also not going to go well. If you wipe out the entire team in one power they were a bad team or really misplayed. But again, not the focus.

Moonwalk to the area, then you look around. If they're relying on SC you'll be too close for them to just run around unless they want to get found. What'd you be doing without moonwalk? Going to the area then looking around. Its the same. One avoids SC one doesn't, the superior choice should be obvious.

"Nobody is going down to an M1 killer at high MMR in any sort of reasonable timeframe."

Yes this is true. Again they are both bad killers no one is saying Myers is good. They both have to work for it but GF has bigger downsides such as CD, free premonition, countered by looking at him, no chase power at all, only 45 seconds vs Myers 60, only on one survivor, losing all stalk progress on a survivor if you hit them outside of power, normal TR when he can't 1 shot. Myers has to work a little bit more, but has a much bigger payoff and less downsides. Myers has to wait 10 more second for his first expose on everyone with perma stealth outside of T3 that can't be turned off and for the rest of the match its 10 seconds to put everyone back in exposed.

"M1ing as Myers is a total waste of time."

This attitude is why you're struggling more than you should be. Its not about downing them, its about making them waste time by healing or risk getting 1 shot later. You don't chase, you get the hit, stalk, or you get the stalk then hit, or you just stalk, but you should not be doing exclusively stalk or exclusively hit for the entire match, thats a bad idea on an already bad killer. If they don't heal, you 1 shot them next time and can save you pop on the next healthy target.

"And Myers can't "Cheese" stalk. That's only a Ghostface thing where you spam the lean stalk / crouch while hiding behind a barrel or something so they can't reveal you even though they clearly know where you are"

You're not cheesing stalk then you're cheesing reveal which Myers doesn't even have to worry about to begin with. Obviously a better situation, not to mention the extra wasted time you're tacking on by doing that.

Yes, spreading damage is a waste of time on every killer right now due to CoH, not just Myers. Every hit and run killer is suffering right now more than usual, that doesn't make them not hit and run killers. They're just forced to play sub optimally right now.

Good survivors spread out against Oni to avoid IF. The strongest killer is Nurse, Oni power or no Oni power, so its nowhere near "undisputed". Blight is basically perma Oni power minus the oneshot but without the wait time, also better than Oni. If he was permanently in his power than maybe he'd be second best, but that's a useless argument to have since he's not.

GF is only better for the first 10 seconds, meanwhile Myers gets 60 seconds on everyone while GF would be on CD for the next single person. Its better to have one person on hook 20 seconds in and the rest exposed for the next 60 (which is 1 entire hook state) and stronger chase/lunge, then to have 1 person on hook 10 seconds in but have no pressure on anyone else for the next 35 and no stealth.

Are the first 20 seconds important? Yes. Are they more important than the first 2 minuets combined? No. Those 10 seconds are more than worth it. As you said "many games of DBD are decided in the first minute or two." Not the first 20 seconds alone.

" significantly earlier than Myers ever can. Even if Myers can snowball or camp much better once he actually has stalked all the way to tier 3."

10 seconds isn't "significantly earlier", and yes Myers can snowball extremely better considering GF is single target. As I said, its more than worth the extra 10 seconds.