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One change I would want to see, if Borrowed Time was actually made basekit
I think we can all agree that we can't just give Survivors BT basekit for free.
It's one of the most picked Survivor Perks, its easily one of the strongest Survivor Perks as well. Just making it a basekit fuction would literally be a free 5th Perk slot per Survivor and is going to further widen the gap in strength between the two sides.
So what would be a good change to compensate for such a huge buff?
After all, BT essentially turns every unhook you do into a safe unhook, it removes all the risk from it and even encourages people to unhook in the Killers face (which should be the opposite of what you want to do) to then have their friend bodyblock for them with BT and DS up.
I think a fair nerf to receive in return would be to increase the unhook time.
If the unhooking animation were to be changed to take longer than it takes the Killer to recover from an attack and strike again, it would disencourage unsafe unhook attempts again, because you can no longer just do it in the Killers face and get away with it.
The idea is, that the action of unhooking is something where the unhooker puts themselves at great risk, but if they pull it off succesfully, they are guaranteed to get away with it due to BT now being basekit.
Furthermore it would disencourage Survivors from sitting idly around someone being camped to try and get that clutch BT save, alias doing absolutely nothing productive and losing the game because of it. The only downside to this is, that it would in return mean that the fate of whoever is on hook is sealed (but lets be honest, thats pretty much already the case anyway. If the Killer truly wants you dead, they will get you).
At least right now this is the only fair compensation i can think of, if you have a better idea, put it in the comments.
Of course, this relies entirely on the assumption that BT is actually being made basekit, which is not yet confirmed by BHVR (but heavily implied by Patrick during the latest Q&A stream).
Also, sorry for the untypically unstructured discussion (its less of a discussion and more of a comment, really) this time, i'm not feeling too well, nor too motivated at the moment. Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents before i forget it or it's too late.
EDIT: typos. per usual, you only see them after you post the discussion :)
Comments
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I'd rather some QOL options on killer. Make kicking gens do something without a perk. Give killer an FOV slider. Make blood not blend into the dark brown maps so much, make it easier to locate downed survivors so you don't get the awkward bush dying thing; maybe even make it so that killers have some sort of benefit for splitting pressure like gaining stacks of Save the Best, or some sort of perk to encourage hooking different people like No Way Out or Furtive Chase (Maybe instead make the effect instead of terror-radius make it action speed).
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okay, but none of those have anything to do with unhooks or the BT changes?
like, you're entirely off topic here. This isnt about making Killer easier, this is about finding a fair solution to Survivors getting BT basekit so its not just a straight buff to them.
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I don't think this is the right call, personally speaking. The reason that Borrowed Time is having rumblings of some basekit incarnation is because of what it does, and that's why it definitely isn't just a free 5th perk slot. Borrowed Time covers for a gap in the core gameplay where survivors are subjected to something completely out of their control- there is literally, straight up, nothing you can do about being farmed and immediately downed again without perks.
It's not just that survivor players are getting a free efficiency buff that needs to be counteracted by the same mechanic getting a corresponding nerf, it's that a flaw with the game's design is being corrected. If killers got a corresponding change, it'd have to be in the same vein to be considered actually a reaction and not a disconnected buff; something where a perk covers core flaws in the gameplay. I'd honestly argue that no killer perks do that, though the closest would definitely be something to slow down the game and give everyone a little room to breathe, so if killers get a change to correspond with this - a huge "if" because that isn't really how these things work - it'd presumably look like some nerfs to generator speed increases, or a change to how stacking those increases works.
Side note, I personally hope that whatever their basekit anti-tunnel measure looks like, it has something to do with removing collision on the unhooked survivor. I've accidentally ended up downing the unhooked guy way too often because of the aim dressing combined with a weird angle, I'd love if I literally couldn't hit them and had to hit the unhooker for a few seconds there. It'd help with BT bodyblocking, too.
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Heck no. Camping killers already get so many free grabs because of lag and crap, this should never be a thing.
Basekit BT is something that should’ve been long ago, and will only punish tunneling killers. I would say it is fair if it doesn’t apply to unhooks after all five gens are repaired, but that is it.
Post edited by GoshJosh on0 -
My opinion is that Lethal Pursuer should be made basekit, if BT is. Also eliminates the whole "gen popped before the killer gets there" thing, and gives killers a significant source of info off the bat.
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It's not a tit-for-tat war. If a change is made to address an imbalance, it doesn't require compensation if it doesn't cause an imbalance in another direction. And definitely not a compensation of the kind you suggest. Hook grabs and interrupts are already a questionable mechanic as is. Making them easier would make BT in general, and not just as basekit, a pointless exercise. Being able to give endurance upon unhooking would be irrelevant if getting unhooks is impossible in the first place.
The ramblings in favor of BT becoming basekit, wheter the idea goes through which I doubt, are due to the fact that... well, that camping IS basekit. Without BT, any unhook is unsafe unless you know for a fact that the killer is across the map. Otherwise, mobility, stealth, etc. all circumvent safe unhook 'intentions'. And so does literally standing at the hook.
You can argue that then the survivors' counter is to hold m1 on gen. That's a matter of game design goals at that point. How would you like your chances of selling a game where another player can force you in a passive staring contest, you depend on your team and your team can do nothing to help you and they are forced themselves into a click simulator? (Hint: read about Deathgarden to know how this story ends).
I like this more, but probably not gonna happen because the value of the perk varies widely between killer powers.
I also liked the idea of a mini corrupt, but apparently there are many people who don't like corrupt and who think it's a nerf to set-up killers.
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If BT becomes base kit, it should be only fair that corrupt or pop become base kit too. Killers need help with gen speed, as much as survivors need help against camping-tunneling.
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There also needs to be incentives to actually kick generators, currently there is none unless you have the right perk for it. Ditto that it's usually better to wait till the person hits stage two against a competent team than it is to leave them to be unhooked for free. Something to encourage the killer to split pressure better would be a healthy change I'd say. Maybe giving a Tinkerer's sort of effect, or maybe a haste effect upon hooking a survivor that lets you gap close to where the other survivor's are (just make it end once chase begins).
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Probably the base kit will be a minor version of BT, like 4 or 6 seconds BT and the normal BT will be "transformed" in something like "when you unhook extend the duration of the enduring status effect after being unhooked of 4-6-8 seconds, gives also a speed bonus of 10%".
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I don't think that they'll go under 8 seconds (purple insta-heal/ soul guard...). And they probably shouldn't.
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What would be the point of having BT if the killer can camp more effectively?
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Borrowed Time covers for a gap in the core gameplay where survivors are subjected to something completely out of their control- there is literally, straight up, nothing you can do about being farmed and immediately downed again without perks.
only problem with that argument is, that making BT basekit doesnt address this issue in the slightest.
you can still get farmed by overaltruistic teammates without being able to do anything against it.
if that is the problem, they should add the ability to deny getting unhooked by someone similar to how you can deny being healed, not give survivors BT for free.
BT quite literally does the opposite of helping you here.
Do you remember when they added the "safe unhook" score event and the "unsafe hook rescues" emblem penalty? those were made to fight exactly this behavior you're complaining about, yet BT just entirely negated them. The hookfarmers didnt disappear - they just equipped BT and continued the same way as before, knowing that now they will be getting away with it again.
I've spoken out about this on a multitude of occasions, but, per usual, have been ignored. a simple fix to this would have been to make the unsafe unhook penalties go through when the unhooked Survivor gets hit, not when they get downed within 10 seconds after being unhooked. but since that has never been implemented and Emblems are no longer a thing, we gotta find a new way to disencourage this behavior.
the main problem with BT isnt even the strength of its effects, its the mindset it creates in Survivors heads and the gameplay it encourages.
my overall goal here is actually very similar to yours: i want to disencourage unsafe hook rescues (alias "hook farms"). BT has been a thorn in my eye for a very long time now, but since it has always just been a Perk, it was quite difficult to find a good solution to this problem due to the fact that not everyone runs it - but if it was turned into a base game mechanic, that would change drastically. So if the escape from the unhooking sight was made to be guaranteed to be safe, then, at least in my opinion, a good way of fighting Survivors turning off their brain and just unhooking because they can (which also encourages tunneling btw, cause why wouldnt you want to go after the guy who is gonna be on deathhook (or even dead) now from the Killers PoV? - so thanks to that BT mindset the Perk actually leads to more tunnel scenarios than when it wasnt around, its trying to fix something but at the same time makes that thing occur more often) would be by making the unhooking action in itself more risky.
think about it: people would stop hookfarming you for good, if hookfarming you meant certain death for them.
and im not saying all this from the perspective of a Killer who just wants to camp more efficiently, im saying it from the perspective of the hooked Survivor - i would much rather be saved without BT when its actually safe to do so than be pulled off the hook with BT when the Killer is close.
your solution of making the unhooked Survivor lose collision sounds neat in theory, but sadly i doubt it is going to work out in practise too well. knowing this game, its probaply going to be very janky with the auto aim system (or the "aim dressing") and will work very similar to old Freddy, where your attacks get pulled to a Survivor thats not attackable when they run behind someone who is, achieving a similar effect as simply bodyblocking you with endurance.
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I'm not sure I follow what you're saying- I don't see how Borrowed Time doesn't cover the gap I outlined, when it gives you the ability to react and dash to a loop if you get hit. BT fixes this problem because it guarantees you won't be downed off hook- it obviously doesn't stop the killer from following you after you get unhooked, nothing could, but it actually lets you do something about it.
Farming itself isn't the problem, that's just a bad habit, the problem is when being farmed leaves you in a situation where you are powerless. You are obviously still at a disadvantage if the killer decides to follow you after you're unhooked, but a lack of BT or even a slower unhook animation doesn't solve that either, it's just that you are vulnerable while injured and somewhere the killer knows your location. If the killer follows you post-BT, or having waited out the duration of BT, it's back in your hands to do something about it because you aren't literally downed again a second after being unhooked.
So, sure, I guess I agree that hook farming would be eliminated if unhooking was always risky, but I don't really care about eliminating hook farming, I care about stopping people from being hard tunnelled, intentionally or accidentally. Also, it's kind of irrelevant to bring up how well this solution would be implemented on a technical level, obviously any hypothetical discussion about potential fixes assumes that those fixes would work.
(Also, why does everyone always put "aim dressing" in sarcastic air quotes? There's a difference between what this game has an an auto-aim system, I've never understood the resistance to referring to it accurately. Not really relevant, it's just always confused me.)
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BT is an anti tunnel Perk, not an anti camp Perk.
The point is to secure the getaway of the freshly unhooked Survivor should the Killer return shortly after the unhook, which it would still do just fine.
if you're looking for Perks that fight camping, look no further than Camaraderie.
You really shouldnt go at a camping scenario with the mindset of "i have BT, so i'll just wait for my chance to unhook and escape with my friend!". doing that is gonna achieve one of two things: 1) you're wasting tons of time you could be on gens instead, meaning by the time the camped guy dies the game is still going, allowing the Killer to get more kills, 2) you run in and play the "grab game" with the Killer, where you greatly risk throwing the entire game right there. And if you do get them off, congratulations! now you're the one being camped.
If the Killer is camping, ger the f- out of there and do gens instead of trying desperately to save the guy on the hook.
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the problem is when being farmed leaves you in a situation where you are powerless.
no, thats actually quite intended.
You are not supposed to just be able to unhook in the Killers face and get away with it for free, the punishment for that is the unhooked person being rehooked immediately, being brought one step closer to death, which is a big setback to the Survivor team in a whole. that is the punishment for this action and thats quite a fair one at that, given we only look at this from a team vs team perspective.
The core issue is not that the Survivor team gets punished for making bad plays, the issue is that the game actively encourages one individual to do said bad plays by rewarding them for it, but punishes someone else for said misplay.
So the shift i'm suggesting here is, that we make it so unhooking leaves the freshly unhooked player in a safe state, but it actively endangeres the unhooker instead. The punishment shifts from punishing the hookfarmed to punishing the hookfarmer.
They will not be hookfarming you, if they receive the punishment for it when it backfires (rather than you), thats the point i was making.
but if we dont endanger the unhooker, we turn hooks into something thats entirely safe for Survivors (when they are supposed to be the Killers stronghold). While you would be right that it'd be fair for the unhooked, it'd be extremely unfair to the Killer, given that the Survivor team just made a huge misplay, but the Killer cant actually punish them for it.
Thats how Killers win in this game, by punishing mistakes made by Survivors. But if we just keep eliminating the Survivors ability to make mistakes, we in return make it harder and harder for Killers to be able to win. Thats why BT basekit without any change to compensate would be a bad thing, because it makes unhooks entirely safe, stripping the Killer off the ability to punish the misplay.
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But the point I'm trying to make is that even with the current BT, which is presumably going to be stronger than the version that makes it into the basekit of the game, unsafe unhooks are still very punishable- they just don't result in the survivor being downed literally immediately, they have 12 seconds to make it to something where they can try to loop and escape, OR they're forced to spend a few seconds mending while the killer spreads pressure elsewhere.
Making some version of BT basekit really wouldn't be eliminating a survivor's ability to make mistakes, it'd just stop someone else from being punished for those mistakes. If someone goes for an unsafe unhook and the killer knows that they can't hit the person being unhooked, that means the unhooker has aggro on them now. It may not be the instant-down of a grab (though it may still be an instant down depending on circumstances), but it's absolutely still a mistake that will still be capitalised on by the killer, it's just rightfully shifting the punishment onto the person who made the mistake.
There's really no reason to assume that some variation on this actually would hurt killers, at least ones who aren't intending to hard tunnel no matter what. You can still go for the unhooker and you can still bait out BT like you can right now, you're just not going to be able to immediately down the person who was just on the hook. You keep saying that the person making the mistake is the one who should be punished, but they would be if the killer knows without a doubt that BT is in play and that there's no point going for the unhooked guy- they'll be punished by being the one that the killer is right on top of, which will at least result in an injury if not a down. You're overlooking that the uncertainty will be eliminated here,right now the killer doesn't know if the person being unhooked has BT saving them but if BT was basekit they'd always go for the unhooker.
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you're missing the entirety of my point.
the problem is that people farm you off in front of the Killer, because that is what leads to the Killer tunneling you.
and BT is actively encouraging them to do so, which needs to stop.
a lot of the scenarios where you argue that BT is needed and healthy would literally be eliminated by removing hook farms like that - and for the other scenarios, literally nothing would change, because the unhooker wasnt in grab or swing distance to the Killer anyway.
less hook farms = less instant tunnels - and even if the Killer comes back to tunnel, now you got BT and can make a run for it.
and yes, 12 seconds are enough to get to a loop at a vast majority of hook locations. There are very few examples where this isnt actually the case, such as the Tompson House, but i feel confident in saying that you shouldnt have much of an issue finding a T L wall, a Jungle Gym or a simple pallet tile in 12 seconds from ~95% of the possible hook locations. and you're most likely gonna have some time to spare as well.
Making some version of BT basekit really wouldn't be eliminating a survivor's ability to make mistakes
yes it would. if the unhooked guy boyblocks for the other, thats exactly what happens: both get away.
to clarify: by "get away" i dont mean instantly win the chase, i mean making enough distance on the Killer to find the next looping tile and start looping them as if they never were at the hook in the first place. e.g. getting out of basement and taking the shack window to disappear into the night.
also, i'd like to point this out:
there are exactly 2 scenarios where a nerf like this would actually negatively affect the Survivors:
1) a Survivor has been found and is being chased when they decide that now would be a great time to go for an unhook
2) the Killer is facecamping
outside of those two scenarios, this unhook time increase would literally do nothing bad for Survivors, because they are not in direct contact with the Killer and therefore couldnt care less if it took them an extra second or so to pull the other guy off the hook.
and lets be honest:
in scenario 1) the Survivor should not be going for that unhook in the first place.
and in scenario 2) the Survivors should, once again, not try to go for unhooks either but do gens instead. sucks for the person on the hook, but facecamping is a different topic that needs to be addressed seperately.
in both of these scenarios, the Survivors are making a big misplay already, so making it harder to pull off would in return mean, that your teammates would be disencouraged to even go for such dumb plays, which is overall more beneficial to you (on the hook) in 9 out of 10 cases.
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The only point here that I agree with is the bodyblocking- that's why what I personally would propose is removing collision so that can't happen. It's the only real, tangible downside to a basekit BT iteration that I can see arising that would prevent it from obviously making the killer prioritise the person doing the unhooking.
Also, this probably is part of their solution to facecamping, and even if that isn't their intent with the change it still isn't a separate issue. This would help against being hard tunnelled, and it would help against being facecamped, with the downside being that it's harder (but not impossible) to tunnel in situations where you're going to try and contest the unhook. That seems like a pretty good trade to me, if the issue of potentially abusing it for bodyblocking is addressed- even with your messages all you're doing is confirming that it would work to dissuade those two things.
You've kinda said it yourself- the unhooked player having something to stop them being downed for a few seconds only matters if you're already there to contest, and in that case, yes, it is absolutely fair for the person who is being unhooked to have a fighting chance at not being downed literally immediately to incentivise you to go for the person doing the unhooking. A player shouldn't be punished for their teammate's mistakes and being hard tunnelled intentionally because of facecamping or other intentional targeting isn't healthy design to encourage, so no matter what way you slice it this is just a good idea that doesn't require a corresponding nerf to balance it out.
So, to summarise: bodyblocking is the only legitimate issue that I can see arising here, and I fully hope that the devs implement whatever they have planned in such a manner that it doesn't become a problem. Otherwise, all this does is make it so the killer player has far more cause to target the person who is actually making the mistake instead of their helpless teammate, and that on its own ought to encourage smarter plays in the long run. If it doesn't, making unhooks take longer won't achieve it either.
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And here we are with yet another whataboutist thread. Where you feel justified to make some outrageous suggestion because of a perceived inbalance. If they get X then I should get Y, or this suggestion isn't total crack whatabout basekit BT.
Seriously this needs to stop, this forum gets four or five of these per day and it is ridiculous.
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what I personally would propose is removing collision so that can't happen
i've covered this in a previous comment already, but removing collision wont actually help you. They can still bodyblock for their friend by running behind them and eating any attack meant for the other player.
Also, this probably is part of their solution to facecamping
then they fundamentally misunderstand what camping even is.
Borrowed Time is NOT an anti camping Perk, not even close. BT is an anti tunnel Perk, but if a Killer is camping efficiently, then BT wont help you against them. The only reason people even get someone off of a hook against a facecamper is because hook grabs are total jank and dont work 50% of the time - and the other 50% the unhooker gives the Killer a free down, potentially even hook and camp, whether they have BT or not.
if you wanna address camping, thats great. i'm with you on that - but BT basekit is absolutely not the solution for that, because it is not an anti camp Perk.
the unhooked player having something to stop them being downed for a few seconds only matters if you're already there to contest, and in that case, yes, it is absolutely fair for the person who is being unhooked to have a fighting chance at not being downed literally immediately to incentivise you to go for the person doing the unhooking
i'm not even arguing with you on this one.
i've openly agreed to this multiple times already, but it's got absolutely nothing to do with my argument.
i'm not saying you shouldnt have a fair chance when you get off the hook, i'm saying the guy trying to get you off the hook should not be doing it right in the Killers face in the first place.
my proposed change takes place before your scenario even comes into play - and when it does come into play, then you got absolutely no downsides from my suggestion anyway, because the animation is already done.
i'm not saying BT basekit shouldnt be a thing, i'm saying that there should be a compensating nerf to unhooking that makes it so the unhooker cant just waltz in guns blazing and do it right in the Killers face 5 seconds after the other guy got hooked and expect to get away with it.
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Corrupt or deadlock basekit.
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